When are names written in the Lamb's book of life?

[agedman]

This is where we disagree. Men can and do reject Salvation. it's true that we can't make God save us but God will not save those who do not believe Scripture never says that He does.
MB

Something to consider is this statement found in the opening of Hebrews 12:

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.​

Other versions use "author and finisher of our faith."

Note the use of the definite article, "the." The author, the finisher. The faith is ours by gift from Him. (Ephesians)

How does such faith come? By hearing the Word. (Romans)

This is an important principle. Human innate "faith" is fallen as any other attribute from the first Adam, and no more than a failed hope.

But believer's faith given by God is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the men of old gained approval. (Hebrews 11:1,2)

God does not have to "make us believe" we believe because of that which He founded (authored) in the core of the believer upon hearing the Scriptures. All that He has selected, will come to Christ. That is the plain teaching of John 10. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." Please note that this uses of "will". It is not a matter of choice.

You are correct that "we cannot make God save us." This is the basic fallacy of those who make much of the innate free will decision of accepting and rejecting.

Such have trouble remembering that ALL have sinned. ALL have and cannot measure up to what God expects - they have come up short. That there is NONE righteous, and there is no righteousness innate within any person born of the first Adam.

This is why the Scriptures teach we are New creation, Born from above, and other such presentations that remove "ability" from the capacity of human to that of the purview of God.

 

[Van]

On and on the posters seek to change the subject.

What does author and finisher of faith mean. Pay no attention to the redefinition supplied by agenda driven eisegesis.

Here is the deal: Names are written in the Lamb's book of life when God puts that individual spiritually into Christ. That is why those enrolled in heaven are the spirits of the righteous made perfect. Pay no attention to those who claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before they were individually made perfect after being put into Christ.

 

[Van]

Lets go over one of the OP passage again:

22 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect," (NASB)

Hebrews 12:22-23 says the spirits enrolled in the general assembly in New Jerusalem have been made perfect. Therefore, they were enrolled after they were placed in Christ. And again, the naysayers deny this obvious truth.

1) Where are we? In the heavenly Jerusalem, where the church of the first born is located made up of the "spirits of the righteous made perfect."

2) What is the status of those spirits? They have been made perfect, thus put in Christ, regenerated, and born anew. These spirits have been enrolled in heaven. Thus they were not enrolled before they were made perfect, before being born anew, before being put in Christ, as part of the bride and body of Christ. OTOH, they have been made alive together with Christ, and therefore belong in the Lamb's book of life.

3) Some claim the spirits might have been enrolled before they became members of the church of the firstborn. But that is an absurd and unnatural interpretation. When people are enrolled in something, they are members of that something, a group, church or whatever.

4) Why have so many objected to this mainstream view of the passage? Either they want to claim the OT book of the living (Psalms 69:28) is the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 3:5, 21:27). or they want to claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, specifically precluded by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.

 

[Van]

Since the inauguration of the New Covenant, the bible clearly teaches names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ.

Whose names are in the Lamb's book of life? Philippians 4:3 says Paul's fellow workers names are in the "book of life." I believe this reference is to the Lamb's book of life, because they were believers engaged in the struggle to spread the gospel. To argue there are two books of salvation, the unnamed "book of life" and the Lamb's book of life is ludicrous.

Revelation 3:5 once again refers to the "book of life" meaning the Lamb's book of life. To argue that Christ would promise not to erase names from an unnamed book of life rather than His book of life is ludicrous.

Revelation 13:8 refers to names not written in the book of life of the Lamb, and to argue others (the redeemed) were not written in the book is ludicrous. Additionally to argue against making the obvious inference, the names actually written the Lamb's book were written since the foundation of the world is also ludicrous

Revelation 21:27 precludes any other book from being used as the "enrollment in heaven" book because only those in the Lamb's book of life go into heaven.

Thus since only the spirits of the righteous made perfect are enrolled in heaven, names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ and made perfect which occurs during their lifetime, after their faith is credited as righteousness and they are transferred into the kingdom of His Son.

 

[37818]

bible clearly teaches names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ.

You have made that assertion. Hebrews 12:22-23 certainly does not teach that, ". . . But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, . . ." The names are statedly written in heaven, but not when written there.

 

[MB]

Something to consider is this statement found in the opening of Hebrews 12:

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.​

Other versions use "author and finisher of our faith."

Note the use of the definite article, "the." The author, the finisher. The faith is ours by gift from Him. (Ephesians)

How does such faith come? By hearing the Word. (Romans)

This is an important principle. Human innate "faith" is fallen as any other attribute from the first Adam, and no more than a failed hope.

But believer's faith given by God is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the men of old gained approval. (Hebrews 11:1,2)

God does not have to "make us believe" we believe because of that which He founded (authored) in the core of the believer upon hearing the Scriptures. All that He has selected, will come to Christ. That is the plain teaching of John 10. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." Please note that this uses of "will". It is not a matter of choice.

You are correct that "we cannot make God save us." This is the basic fallacy of those who make much of the innate free will decision of accepting and rejecting.

Such have trouble remembering that ALL have sinned. ALL have and cannot measure up to what God expects - they have come up short. That there is NONE righteous, and there is no righteousness innate within any person born of the first Adam.

This is why the Scriptures teach we are New creation, Born from above, and other such presentations that remove "ability" from the capacity of human to that of the purview of God.

Man is not a fallen creature neither was Adam. Calvinist claim this but it is not in scripture that Adam or we ever fall from anything.

People are not sheep until they believe.
MB

 

[Van]

You have made that assertion. Hebrews 12:22-23 certainly does not teach that, ". . . But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, . . ." The names are stated written in heaven, but not when written there.

Your version has "written" whereas the best most accurate translations have "enrolled." The assembly of the spirits made perfect would not be enrolled until they were made perfect. It is a lock.

I know the KJV reads written, but the NKJV corrected it to registered. See also the NET, WEB, NASB and LEB

 

[37818]

Man is not a fallen creature . . . .

So what do you mean? Genesis 3. Romans 5:12.

 

[37818]

Your version has "written" whereas the best most accurate translations have "enrolled." The assembly of the spirits made perfect would not be enrolled until they were made perfect. It is a lock.

I know the KJV reads written, but the NKJV corrected it to registered. See also the NET, WEB, NASB and LEB

Again, does not denote when.

 

[Yeshua1]

no, they have it backwards, We are the condemned imprisoned sinners, Mormons think earth will ascend into being like Heaven and that humanity is necessary to Heaven. sorta like Islam and JW's

We are the bad guys of this narrative,
Mormons don't believe you have/are or a soul nor in the Holy Spirit

Mormons see us existing as souls eternally in heaven, who come to earth in a body when born, do you?

 

[Van]

Again, does not denote when.

To believe people enrolled in heaven before they are made perfect is ludicrous. You have offered no possible way of enrolling spirits made perfect before they are made perfect.

 

[37818]

To believe people enrolled in heaven before they are made perfect is ludicrous. You have offered no possible way of enrolling spirits made perfect before they are made perfect.

So accordingly would not be until one enters heaven. Hebrews 12:22. (We disagee, Exodus 32:32-33 names already written and could be removed, Psalms 69:27-28: Daniel 12:1-2.)

 

[Van]

So accordingly would not be until one enters heaven. Hebrews 12:22. (We disagee, Exodus 32:32-33 names already written and could be removed, Psalms 69:27-28: Daniel 12:1-2.)

Why are you repeating debunked fictions.

Do you know when a born anew person "enters heaven spiritually?" When they are born anew or when they physically die. Clue! When they are born anew, when they are enrolled in heaven after they are made perfect.

 

[agedman]

On and on the posters seek to change the subject.

What does author and finisher of faith mean. Pay no attention to the redefinition supplied by agenda driven eisegesis.

Here is the deal: Names are written in the Lamb's book of life when God puts that individual spiritually into Christ. That is why those enrolled in heaven are the spirits of the righteous made perfect. Pay no attention to those who claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before they were individually made perfect after being put into Christ.

This is amazing!

There is no refuting proof of redefinition. But slander offered in hope of swaying opinion of readers.

Perhaps there is no refuting proof of redefinition because there is none. Therefore the reliance upon deflection.

And so on the post continues. Imploring folks with the offer of a scheme that has been shown to be a failure.

 

[agedman]

Lets go over one of the OP passage again:

22 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect," (NASB)

Hebrews 12:22-23 says the spirits enrolled in the general assembly in New Jerusalem have been made perfect. Therefore, they were enrolled after they were placed in Christ. And again, the naysayers deny this obvious truth.

Van are you currently perfect?

Were is the place of perfection, of the completeness of the new creation?

Perhaps the next part of your post will reflect the wisdom of God?

1) Where are we? In the heavenly Jerusalem, where the church of the first born is located made up of the "spirits of the righteous made perfect.

Are we? Right now you are in the heavenly Jerusalem? I didn't know death and destruction took place there!

2) What is the status of those spirits? They have been made perfect, thus put in Christ, regenerated, and born anew. These spirits have been enrolled in heaven. Thus they were not enrolled before they were made perfect, before being born anew, before being put in Christ, as part of the bride and body of Christ. OTOH, they have been made alive together with Christ, and therefore belong in the Lamb's book of life.

So, there were no believers whose names are recorded prior to them gaining the heavenly Jerusalem?

And where do you find such a scheme presented in Scriptures?

3) Some claim the spirits might have been enrolled before they became members of the church of the firstborn. But that is an absurd and unnatural interpretation. When people are enrolled in something, they are members of that something, a group, church or whatever.

This passage states nothing of what you are presenting in this part. Totally assumption on your part.

4) Why have so many objected to this mainstream view of the passage? Either they want to claim the OT book of the living (Psalms 69:28) is the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 3:5, 21:27). or they want to claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, specifically precluded by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.

Mainstream view???

Really?

If so many object, then it cannot be called a mainstream view!

 

[agedman]

Never mind.

Won't make any difference in how you think.

 

[MB]

So what do you mean? Genesis 3. Romans 5:12.

Where does it say Adam has fallen or every other man. No one has fallen. Sinned yes but not fallen.
MB

 

[MB]

Never mind.

Won't make any difference in how you think.

This is why it's useless to try to talk to you
MB

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 11:45 PM Pacific.

 

[loDebar]

Mormons see us existing as souls eternally in heaven, who come to earth in a body when born, do you?

Mormons do not believe you have a soul nor the Holy Spirit.exists

I do believe scripture shows the preexistence of the soul or spiritual part of us that get''s a human body., the word is incarnate.
Humanity is the method where the death of one can save many through the shared blood.