When are we SAVED?

[Dave G]

Dave its really hard to communicate with you . As calvinists go your in deep my friend. Your not engaging with anything I'm saying .

Believe me when I say that I'm engaging everything that you are saying, sir.

Goodbye, Barry...
I wish you well.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You can "interpret" it any way you wish, Barry.
But I'll believe every word for myself, if you don't mind.

To me, you are believing and teaching a God that cannot save unless we give Him permission,
and a God that casts those that are already reconciled to Him, into Hell anyway.

My question to you is this:

Who do you think is more evil...the "Calvinist" God that chooses a person to salvation apart from anything they do or will, and grants them an incredible gift...
Who has reconciled them to Himself and forgiven all their sins;

Or the "Arminian" God who sent His Son to die for the sins of all humanity, offers salvation to anyone that will accept it by faith, and then judges those that His Son died for, and took their sins away...
for those very sins...
And then sends them to Hell to suffer for even one sin ( that was already paid for ) for all of eternity?

I urge you, quite strongly, to consider my previous posts, sir.

Again. if your interested on the ' message of reconciliation ' I will be happy to engage on there . I'm genuinely wanting to go through those verses and if someone has an argument from the scriptures, I'm happy to be corrected . Let me know where I'm wrong on that thread about ' reconciled ' ect ..From the scriptures and not from ' credulity ' or ' logical necessity.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Believe me when I say that I'm engaging everything that you are saying, sir.

Goodbye, Barry...
I wish you well.

Avoidance as ever .

 

[AustinC]

All for the Glory of God eh ?

Your theology points others in a different direction, which is good.

 

[AustinC]

And you're not.
MB

Not with scripture.
Observe, question, interpret and apply. Let's try this on entire passages so we see context. I actually dare you to do this.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Not with scripture.
Observe, question, interpret and apply. Let's try this on entire passages so we see context. I actually dare you to do this.

Every time you will fall into syllogism and inductive reasoning , without fail . Set the timer ...go !

 

[AustinC]

Believe me when I say that I'm engaging everything that you are saying, sir.

Goodbye, Barry...
I wish you well.

Indeed, Barry's op has been addressed and Barry has resorted to "Calvin" as a crutch to avoid scripture. He does this often as a means of avoiding what God declares. It is time to dust off the sandals and walk away.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Indeed, Barry's op has been addressed and Barry has resorted to "Calvin" as a crutch to avoid scripture. He does this often as a means of avoiding what God declares. It is time to dust off the sandals and walk away.

Dave is the ' phantom ' responder . He never goes through anything. Its like a missle drop and fly by .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your theology points others in a different direction, which is good.

There is no Gospel( Good news ) in Calvinism to point anyone to .

 

[MB]

Not with scripture.
Observe, question, interpret and apply. Let's try this on entire passages so we see context. I actually dare you to do this.

I do not interpret scripture I let scripture interpret it self. Bet you didn't know it could do that. I take scripture literally. I can not add to it or ignore any of it the way you do through your interpretation. The Bible says not to add or take away from it. This is what you do with your interpretations.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry,
Despite my earlier stated intention to refrain from replying,
I've decided to answer your comment above in the hope that it will cause you to look at something more closely...

I ask you sincerely,
How is it that God has reconciled everyone to Himself,
Even those He casts into Hell and judges them for their works?

" And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." ( Revelation 20:12 ).

If they are already reconciled, then there's nothing between them and the Lord ( including their sins ), Barry.
Do you believe and teach that the Lord casts people into Hell that are indeed reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and that their sins are already dealt with and paid for?

If so,
How then does the Bible say that they will be judged according to their works and those things ( plural ) that are written in the books?
Notice that it does not say that for the sin of unbelief alone that they will be judged, but for multiple things.
To me, that is their sins, Barry.

As I see it, you're teaching a God that not only personally loves those that He casts into Hell to suffer eternal torment ( ), but that His Son actually paid for those sins that He will then turn right around and judge them for.

Do you believe that that is just, and according to righteousness?
That a holy and perfectly righteous God would lie and tell people that on the one hand their sins are paid for, and then on the other tell them that they will be judged according to their works and that they are still, like the Pharisees, in their sins?


So,
As a Bible believer, I would have quite a bit of trouble telling someone that they have been reconciled to God, if they are an unbeliever.

' keep reading ' principle .
Revelation 20
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice why they are cast into the lake of fire ? whosoever was not found written in the book of life .
Question how is a person found or not found written in that book ( singular ) ?
The clue has something to do with being in Christ or not . Even you as a calvinist cannot argue that a person is found or not found in that ' book ' based on if He believed on Jesus ,death , burial and resurrection or not . I believe that's the reason why some will be in hell . Because they refused to believe the truth so as to be saved .

 

[canadyjd]

Dave G

I understand what you believe. I am asking you to address 1Cor 1:21.

....God was well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe...

Scripture, here, makes a direct connection between the preaching of the gospel and salvation. In fact, this is God’s plan to bring salvation to His people.

Would you answer this? Is the preaching of the gospel necessary for salvation? If it is, how is that not contrary to your stated belief we are saved in eternity past?

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Would you answer this? Is the preaching of the gospel necessary for salvation? If it is, how is that not contrary to your stated belief we are saved in eternity past?

I see that the Gospel is God's means to notify His people of their salvation.

It is not an offer, but a promise given only to the "whosoever believeth".
I also see that it is necessary for God's word to be believed and trusted...
for without it, God's people would never know of the things that are freely given to them.

That said, I've decided that what I've stated thus far is as far as I'm going to pursue this.
It's time I took a break from this forum, and perhaps a long one.

I've recognized the hard way that me discussing what I believe only leads to misunderstandings and arguments, of which I grow increasingly grieved in my Spirit about.
Thanks for considering my posts and what they contain, and I wish all of you well.

 

[AustinC]

I do not interpret scripture I let scripture interpret it self. Bet you didn't know it could do that. I take scripture literally. I can not add to it or ignore any of it the way you do through your interpretation. The Bible says not to add or take away from it. This is what you do with your interpretations.
MB

That is false. You certainly interpret, but you ignore context and thus take one sentence to mean whatever you want it to mean.
Here's an example of a verse out of context:

Luke 4:7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

The funny thing is that Barry likes what you say. Two peas...

 

[atpollard]

I addressed your list Sir. My first post reflected Ephesians 2:8 so to say it offered no scripture is disingenuous.

Just to clarify, your “first post” to which I was referring was #36.

When are individuals "saved?" When God places them spiritually into the body of Christ.

Not in Christ, not saved.

In Christ, saved.

So simple a child could understand it.

It was in response to this post that I posted a list of possible “WHEN” questions that this event could happen.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 301 AM EDT (Mon) / 1201 am PDT (Mon)

 

[MB]

That is false. You certainly interpret, but you ignore context and thus take one sentence to mean whatever you want it to mean.
Here's an example of a verse out of context:

Luke 4:7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

The funny thing is that Barry likes what you say. Two peas...

I didn't know that this is your favorite verse. No thanks I'm not even tempted by your false doctrines.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Don't get me wrong we are saved by Grace but only through faith

And here we reach the dot and tittle that divides our theologies.
Is “faith” also a gift of God’s Grace?
I say “yes” and you say “no” and the scripture supports both views, but irrefutably denies neither (or this discussion would not have gone on since the 1500’s).

So “Shalom Shabbat” ... The peace of the sabbath be upon you.

 

[MB]

And here we reach the dot and tittle that divides our theologies.
Is “faith” also a gift of God’s Grace?
I say “yes” and you say “no” and the scripture supports both views, but irrefutably denies neither (or this discussion would not have gone on since the 1500’s).
If it supports both views then it would contradict it self. We are dealt a measure of faith



So “Shalom Shabbat” ... The peace of the sabbath be upon you.

You cannot have saving Grace with out the Faith for it to come through.
Eph 2:8
MB

 

[canadyjd]

I see that the Gospel is God's means to notify His people of their salvation.....

I Cor 1:21 does not say the gospel was God’s plan to notify His people they were saved in eternity past.

It says God is well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.

Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

You said the gospel is necessary to notify His people are saved. That is not biblical, and quite frankly, borders on heresy because you deny the gospel is necessary for salvation.

If people are saved in eternity past, why did Jesus die at an appointed time in God’s plan?

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

You cannot have saving Grace with out the Faith for it to come through.
Eph 2:8
MB

[Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved[masculine] through faith[feminine] ; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift[neuter] of God;

“gift” must match the gender of the thing that is being given in Greek grammar. “saved” is masculine and “faith” is feminine so neither one can be the “gift”. “saved through faith” combined is both masculine and feminine and would match a neuter “gift”.

I am FAR from an expert on this, but that is my best understanding of how this verse works. So this verse could honestly be interpreted as “God gives you faith that saves you because of His grace” or OT could honestly be interpreted as “God gives you the gift of salvation through your faith, because of His grace”.

It cannot be interpreted that God gives you the gift of salvation, and faith just happens to be how God does it. It also cannot be interpreted that God gives you faith and that allows you to save yourself. Neither “saved” nor “faith” alone can be the “gift”.

I believe that the next verse and the earlier part about “while we were yet dead ...” suggests that the whole thing “grace, saved and faith” are the “gift” from God ... so that no one has anything to boast about except God.

Sorry, but I stand by my position that there are no “slam-dunk” victories to be had in a 500 year old debate, or we would not still be debating it.