When deacons cross the line?

Well, I can outdo Paul. It took him until midnight to put someone to sleep. I can do it in half an hour.

I did preach for 53 minutes once. I learned my lesson.

 

To address the issues:

1) How long are the sermons?

2) How long are the visits?

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It is possible that the deacons are voicing the sentiments of the silent majority. If that is the case, it would be a very good idea to listen to them.

To ParsonBob:

DO NOT PREACH AGAINST THE DEACONS. This matter is not a hill on which to die....and you will die on that hill if you try to charge it. Go to the deacons and make an honest effort to listen to their concerns.

As much as I don't like deacons usurping authority, I equally dislike the idea that the pastor cannot be questioned or approached with some concern.

The fact of the matter is this: there are some issues that need to be resolved, and it would go best for you if you resolve the issues while maintaining peace. As long as you are not being asked to compromise the gospel, working to maintain peace is probably your best bet.

 

We all generally agree that deacons should be servants, not bosses. Many deacons have the wrong conception of what they're supposed to be and do. But in the main that's because the congregatiion has the wrong idea, as well.

How did it get this way? I have a theory. Because deacons are supposed to be wise and spiritual, churches tend to elect those men as deacons. And they tend to look to wise and spiritual men for answers to problems, to fix things that are broken. They elect these men to leadership positions. The church members themselves cede power, authority and influence to those men. Power and influence are very seductive, and over time begin to assume such power, authority and influence are vested in the office of deacon, not just in the individual who happens to hold the office.

Too often, deacons do stuff like they did to ParsonBob because that's really what they think they're supposed to do. You may not buy this, but sometimes they actually think they're being helpful to the pastor.

Some of the posters have used ParsonBob's situation to advocate an elder-led church government. But from my experience, when the pastor and deacons are on the same page, thinks work quite effectively.

And I've read of situations just recently where the elders unwisely used their power and authority to blindside the congregation with some worship service changes which caused great conflict and unhappiness. Neither system works well with unspiritual and unwise men.

I tried to find the post where the writer suggested spending the first 10 minutes of deacons meeting in prayer. Can't find it to credit the poster, but it's a great idea. Especially for the pastor to pray earnestly for the deacons, by name even. Ask God to give them wisdom, the heart of a servant, a love for God and for God's people.

Do you realize how hard it is to be mad at your pastor when he's on his knees praying for you by name, right in your presence?

 

The length of the sermon should be determined by the text, not by the congregation. Sound doctrine, as Paul says, must be endured. It cannot be communicated in a short period of time. If you are preaching the word and applying it to their lives, it shouldn't be a problem.

But also realize that some people are just cantankerous.

 

True, but often after our pastor has spoken for quite a while, he realizes there is a limit to attention spans and just says we will continue next time. Then next time he picks up in the text and carries on.

 

I think that the Elder versus Deacon argument is a non-issue. Most Baptist Churches have traditionally had a board of Deacons but they really fill the role of Elder as defined in the Bible.

I agree with the view that the Pastor and the Deacons should work together. I think the pastor should structure the service to make it most effective for his congregation and visitors. He should work with the Deacons to get their input.

 

Friend if you have been at that church for just a year or two or less then to those folk it just seems like a few minutes. I went through similar problems in my first church. People love to come to you and say so and so said.
They need to remember that people only put garbage in garbage cans when they come a gossiping to you.
Alot of times deacons have no authority at home so they try to usurp the pastor's authority.
Never use the pulpit to retaliate against folk. Never preach with malice in your heart. I'm not saying you are going to do this but it kind of sounds like your ready to tell em off or tell em like it is while using the Bible as your six shooter. You better pray and pray hard about this matter before you let er rip.
IF your a young fella these dudes have hurt your pride, your ego maybe?
IT is difficult if your a young pastor. I was 29 at my first church. Some of my deacons fought in the Korean war yet I had been called to lead these men and that flock that can feel like a strange place.
PipeDude and Tom Butler have given advice that I would echo.
You can't let these fellows make you their puppet yet you don't need to get ahead of yourself in addressing this problem.
Speak the truth in love.
Pray through until you know what and how your going to handle the situation is of the spirit and not of the flesh.

Also , you gotta have a tough hide to handle the criticism that comes in the pastorate. Choose your battles, struggles wisely.
Also, Holmer Lindsey Jr. former pastor of First Baptist JAX. said something one time that I have never forgotten. He said "Just love um men, just love em".
That is simple yet profound. The good Shepherd loves his sheep. We are the undershepherds. We must love the sheep, even the most troubled ones.
Just take your time and pray it through. Stay above reproach, give the matter to God. WHo knows God may move those folk out or shut em up in a way that won't involve you at all. He can do that.
Practically speaking if your preaching more than thirty minutes then more that likely you might want to consider trimming it down a little bit. I can name on one hand the men I would listen to for more than thirty minutes and one of them is dead.
Remember the 3 laws of preaching: Stand up, Speak up and Shut up.

Also as PipeDude said I shall say it another way. Welcome to the ministry my friend.

God will give you wisdom, He will give you grace. You will do fine. Remember "Just Love em, Just love em.

 

If they are not leaders in their job or commuity then they are most likely not leaders in the church. Just because they are calle leaders does not make them leaders. In my first church I had some who thought they were leaders. From early in I spoke about Jesus did as a leader and how leaders are leaders. Leaders always have people who lok to them for leadership. If a "leader" has no followers he is not a leader. Leader prove their leadership in their followers. If a man is not making disciples he is disqualified as a leader. Jesus called his disciples to make disciples. Those who do not are not leaders in the most basic way of leadership.

We have a basic problem today in that people in general do not respect authority.

 

ShannonL---a lovely piece of good advise, Sir----except for the line

"Remember the 3 laws of preaching: Stand up, Speak up and Shut up."

Where'd those laws come from??

 

Sounds like the making of a series to me

The human mind does have limits for attention, but we also need to be able to digest the food that we are given. I'd rather have three continued sermons that give me time to ponder and think and pray over the material, than one that has so much information that I can't get all the points down. There is a balance here.

And I also want to hit on something that PastorSBC mentioned. I had a counselor once when I first started teaching who told me when a parent complained, look for the kernal of truth in what they were saying. If there was any, take it and then move on.

Obviously this deacon has an agenda or he would have approached you in a different manner. But that might not negate what he said.

 

Deacons have no right to take the place of elders. If there are no elders, the congregation takes those duties. There are churches all over the country where deacons have created their pockets of "power" and try to influence politics in the church. Maybe they do this because no one pays attention to them at home or work. Who knows? The fact remains, if there is a deacon distrupting the unity of the local church, or the leadership of the pastor if he is in God's will, then the congregation has the right and the duty to vote that deacon out. Its a matter of fortitude of the congregation.

 

Yeah, Mike, you're right, but if a congregation is not willing to remove people from the roll who haven't attended in years, it certainly won't deal with a rogue deacon.

I remember several years ago in the church you and I serve, we had a deacon who simply dropped out, quit coming. We let that situation hang for a couple of years, before finally withdrawing his ordination. But we never did withdraw fellowship, even though he said he was never coming back.

A return to consistent, redemptive church discipline will solve some of the problems in our churches.

 

Brother you are going to hear alot of "I think".

Church constitutions, church bylaws, and tradition have taken the place of scripture in many churches in America.

There is no scriptual reference to congregational rule. And there is no scriptual reference to deacon rule. In fact scriptually the deacons have no authtority. They are simply servants being sent out.

It is important to remember that you have a calling that no one else in that church has. And it is a calling from God. Your authority is a result of his providence. Acts 20:28

When anyone in the church comes to you with a complaint it is important to listen and consider all that is said with respect and love. Even when their attitude is just the opposite.

What ever we do must be done with a scriptual basis. If it is not then there is no authority behind it. So any resolution to conflict has to be backed with scripture. If there is an accusation then ask them to bring you the scritpure to back up their claim.

The notion that peoples attention spans are limited is based on immaturity and or disintrest, not on limited human ability.

It is important to know that sometimes people cannot communicate exactly what they feel is the problem. Preaching to long can actually be something else. It may mean they dont want to hear much preaching(spiritual immaturity), it may mean they are not understanding some of what you are saying(application to their life is not understood), sometimes we get into ruts as preachers and our voices becomes almost monotone and our passion for the subject is little to none.

Always preach what God tells you to and rely only on him for the message.

I was once told that I should only ever preach the great commision and nothing else. It happens to all of us sooner or later.

You may be doing exactly what God wants you to. Church members being disgruntled is not an automatic indicator that you should change what you are doing but may also be and indicator that you should keep on keepin on. Satan may be opposing you because you are being effective. If your conscience is clear then that is most likely the case.

Prayer and fasting is a constant source of power in the pulpit.

Always use good and powerful illustrations to get there attention. This goes along way to assist with weak attention spans.

If you are not passionate about the subject then maybe you should hold off until a later time.
Voice fluctuation is very important and should be given much of your attention.

It has been said by many a pastor and I believe that if you will love the people they will forgive many a mistake. (but there are some who just dont want you to, no matter what you do.)

And above all else pray, fast, and stay in the word.

 

Revmitchell has given some excellent advice. Great post and wisdom concerning church gov't.

 

RevMitchell,
Could you clarify?
You question people having limited attention spans.
Do you then regularly preach 2 or 3 hours like the Puritans sometimes did?
How long do you regularly preach and why not longer?

 

I have preached for 55 minutes. And let me clarify, I did not question people having limited attention spans. I said they are not a result of human inability. We can sit through two hour movies and maintain our attention but confine the preacher to 25 minutes. We are more interested in secular entertainment than in the word of God. Of course some are trying these days to combine the two.

 

You say you were "jumped on by", and "chewed out by" the deacons. Somehow I just don't see that happening unless there is some sort of established animosity beforehand. Is there more to the story?

 

It happens to pastors all the time without provocation.

 

Blackbird,

Stand up speak up and shut up was just a little moniker that my homiletics professor used to tell us.
Some men preach an hour because they are led by God to do so.'
Some men preach an hour because they think they themselves are so bright and you just got to hear what they say.There is a difference and If you have experienced that sort of thing you know exactly what I mean.

Personally I would prefer 45min to a hour of preaching and about 15 min or so for singing etc...
I'm afraid preaching is increasingly getting minimized in most evangelical churches in America.
Rev.Mitchell is absolutely right when he says how ironic it is that alot of our folk don't mind sitting at the movies or in front of the DVD movie at home for two hours or more yet preaching should stop on a dime at 12pm . Go figure?

Mitchell makes some good points. It is quite possible that the author of this post has begun to stir up the ole guard in the church which btw is usually the ole devil's crowd even if they don't know it themselves due to biblical preaching. Thus Mitchell could be right when he says that people can get mad at the pastor for no reason at all. It happens all the time. Especially if the preacher is preaching the Word.
I will still stick to my guns though and say (based on personal experience) that one should be patient in these matters and pray through them.
Prayer and patience can take care of alot of problems in a church that the preacher has to deal with.
As a young peacher we come to town with a burning passion to carry out the vision God has put in our heart for that little church. Not long down the road opposition rears its ugly head be it through deacons or whatever. We get struck down, discouraged by the critics and the gossip etc... So sometimes we want to fire back and fire back quick and hard. When really we just need to stay above reproach, stay in the Word and in prayer and give our enemies over to the Lord. This is what David did. Read Psalms 10-16 approx.
Remember David wandered 10 years from the time he was declared King until he became King. HE went through alot of trials, and discouragement. HE could have killed Saul who was standing in the way of what David knew to be the will of God for his life yet He let God bring it to pass His way.
I'm just saying this is a good analogy of staying the course regarding what you want to do as far as carrying out the vision God has given you for your church. Be patient don't strike out to quickly against your adversaries. God knows exactly what is going on.

 

So the congregation rules before and over the Deacons if there are no Elders?? That could pose a real problem. You're saying that a congregation takes the place of an Elder if there is none in the church?