When did the Church actually begin?

[Peggy]

I vote Pentecost.

 

[The Archangel]

And though I do disagree it, my question is of the same vein as yours and which you set forth in next portion of that paragrah:

:thumbs:


I would say keep reading brother but also read some of those books that differ from your view You might find, like J. Macarthur, that the convenant view isn't.. well.. isn't all some think it is. But that is just our view from this side :tongue3:

You are blessed brother. Me, I'm still at work :laugh:

Allan,

I've read some MacArthur...I like him very much, although I find him an odd collection of theological positions--that doesn't bother me since I myself am an odd collection of theological positions too (more reformed and covenantal than MacArthur, though).

I do like what he says, though, that the Church and Israel are different. At this point I think I agree with that. However, I state it this way: The Church and Israel are different, but they are the heirs of the same promises.

It is obvious that all Christians have their roots in Abraham and so I lean toward Israel and the Church being two franchises of one corporation. At least that's how I think of it now--I still have more study to do.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Tom Butler]

That's because the starting point of the church wasn't difinitive. At best, we can say that the Christian church movement was established by the time Pentecost occurred, but we can't say difinitively that the church didn't exist prior to Pentecost.

Actually, we can pinpoint the beginning of the church. It was when Jesus completed his selection of the twelve.

Mark 3:13-15 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: And they came unto him. And he ordained the twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach. And to have the power to heal sicknesses and cast out devils.

Whatever the disciples had on the day of Pentecost, they already had before Pentecost. They had a Head, they had ordination, they had a commission, they had divine power, they had the ordinances.

 

[swaimj]

I don't think there is a single, clear, slam-dunk statement that defines the beginning of the church. Still...

Obviously, at a minimum, Jesus is preparing his disciples for the church during His time with Him. Did the church begin then?

Here is one line of argument: Jesus, in the great commission gave the disciples their "marching orders": Go ye into all the world...

But, before they started going, Jesus said "Tarry in Jerusalem until you are endued with power". So they did. Once they were endued with power, then they started going. They were endued with power on the day of Pentecost. That is when the church began.

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't think there is a single, clear, slam-dunk statement that defines the beginning of the church. Still...

Obviously, at a minimum, Jesus is preparing his disciples for the church during His time with Him. Did the church begin then?

Here is one line of argument: Jesus, in the great commission gave the disciples their "marching orders": Go ye into all the world...

But, before they started going, Jesus said "Tarry in Jerusalem until you are endued with power". So they did. Once they were endued with power, then they started going. They were endued with power on the day of Pentecost. That is when the church began.

Actually, they were empowered before Pentecost. In Mark 3:17 it says
And he ordained the twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach. And to have the power to heal sicknesses and cast out devils.

Luke 10:17 tells us The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."

It was after the resurrection and shortly before Pentecost that Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem because he was about to return to the Father. The Holy Spirit would replace Jesus, in a sense.

It one will take the scriptures as they are instead of running through the dispensationalist filter, the picture will become clearer.

 

[Dr. Bob]

The disciples did not have the PERMANENT INDWELLING holy Spirit until Pentecost. That they might be empowered (temporary) prior to that is consistent with how the holy Spirit has worked since Creation.

BTW, I am a cross between a Progressive Dispensationalist and New Covenant. I find a distinction between Israel and the Church in some areas and find them all part of the same body in others.

And for the record, I think the Acts 8 English in the AV as "church" is a horrible injustice to the text and the Word of God. Another "Anglicans got it wrong again" moment.

 

[Soulman]

My pastor is attempting to teach that the church was already in existance by Matt. 18:17 when Jesus was discussing church disipline. I disagree. I don't believe the church could have existed as we know it until after Jesus went into the temple not made with hands as our high priest. The death of the testator was also needed.

 

[swaimj]

Tom Butler said:

Actually, they were empowered before Pentecost.

But, Tom, here is the scripture I quoted from the mouth of Jesus:

"Tarry in Jerusalem until you are endued with power".

Surely, there must be some distinction between the power they had prior to Pentecost versus after. I think the distinction Dr. Bob made in his post is valid.

 

[Tom Butler]

The power the disciples exhibited before Pentecost was the power supplied by God the Son himself. The power exhibited by the disciples from Pentecost onward came from God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus explained what was going on in John 16:7--
"It is better for you that I go away. If I do not go away, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, will not come to you. If I go away, I will send him to you." (John 16: 7)

And this is an interesting verse. Acts 1:1-2--
"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that He through the Holy Ghost had given commandments to the apostles whom he had chosen:"

Now, to me this says that after he ascended, he continued to give commandments to his disciples through the Holy Spirit. Jesus continues his ministry through the third Person of the Trinity.

So I don't think it's necessary to distinguish between the power displayed by Jesus and his disciples and the power displayed by the disciples after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit from Pentecost on. Nor will it work to contend that there was no power until Pentecost.

There was a gap of time between Jesus' ascension and Pentecost, and that's why Jesus told his disciples to wait on the power from on high.

As to the permanent indwelling Dr. Bob mentioned, I find no problem with that.

Dispies want to start the church at Pentecost based on its empowering by the Holy Spirit. But I have shown that the twelve were already empowered by Jesus himself during his earthly ministry.