When Did the Church Begin?

[Yeshua1]

I think you have misunderstood or have strayed off topic. IMO, the Spirit has not much to with it. The topic is: When did the church begin, and if you consider Tom's OP he is considering the word "church" more in a local sense.

Historically every denomination, both Catholic and Protestant have used water baptism as the door to the local church. When we baptize a person they become a member of our church. We wouldn't baptize them otherwise. It is a door to the church. It is a door to "our local church body or assembly. It is not the Spirit but water baptism. The only people we would baptize are those that are born again, willing to be baptized and in agreement with us in doctrine.

The word "church" is ekkesia, or assembly. That is all the word means--assembly.

Tom puts forth the idea, what is to prevent Christ and the Twelve from being called "the first assembly" of believers, or church. There is no specific doctrine that mandates the "coming of the Spirit." Here is an "assembly" of believers, Christ the chief cornerstone, and the apostles the foundation, with Christ saying "Upon this Rock (presumably Peter's testimony or Himself), I will build my church or assembly). There is no emphasis on the Spirit and doesn't have to be. Who makes that a requirement and why? It isn't in the definition of a local church, not any of the definitions that I have read.
Here is one of them:

A church is an assembly of baptized (immersed) believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of carrying out the two ordinances (Lord's Supper and baptism by immersion), and for obeying the Great Commission of our Lord.

That is what our church does.
As Tom pointed out, Jesus and his disciples did the same before the cross.

the Baptism of the Spirit gets one into the Church/Body of Christ, water baptism entry way for local church membership...

 

[Tom Butler]

Our differences of opinion regarding the beginnings of the church are directly connected to our differences in defining a church. More specifically, different readings of I Corinthians 12; and even more specifically, verse 13.

This may seem like I'm chasing a rabbit off-topic, but I think where we start on this subject determines where we come out.

Therefore, I'm going to stir the pot a bit.

I Cor 12:13, KJV says : "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into the body."

This is usually interpreted as describing an act of the Holy Spirit on the body, the universal church.

I suggest that "Spirit" in v 13 is not the Holy Spirit, but means something entirely.

I suggest that "by" the Spirit is better translated "in," which changes the meaning significantly. The Greek "en" is translated "in" more than 1,800 instances in the New Testament.

I suggest that the baptism is not Spirit baptism, but water baptism.

I suggest that the ."body" is not a universal church, but a local church--in this instance, FBC Corinth.

One more thing: Ephesians 4:4 speaks of "one baptism." This suggests to me that you can't have two baptisms. And the one we have is water baptism.

Okay, release the hounds.l

 

[Yeshua1]

Our differences of opinion regarding the beginnings of the church are directly connected to our differences in defining a church. More specifically, different readings of I Corinthians 12; and even more specifically, verse 13.

This may seem like I'm chasing a rabbit off-topic, but I think where we start on this subject determines where we come out.

Therefore, I'm going to stir the pot a bit.

I Cor 12:13, KJV says : "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into the body."

This is usually interpreted as describing an act of the Holy Spirit on the body, the universal church.

I suggest that "Spirit" in v 13 is not the Holy Spirit, but means something entirely.

I suggest that "by" the Spirit is better translated "in," which changes the meaning significantly. The Greek "en" is translated "in" more than 1,800 instances in the New Testament.

I suggest that the baptism is not Spirit baptism, but water baptism.

I suggest that the ."body" is not a universal church, but a local church--in this instance, FBC Corinth.

One more thing: Ephesians 4:4 speaks of "one baptism." This suggests to me that you can't have two baptisms. And the one we have is water baptism.

Okay, release the hounds.l

Paul states that we ALL have partaked of the same Spirit, in that we ALL received Him thru faith, and paul seems to be indicating that this was more than just meant for a local church!

We are placed into Christ when we first believed/receivng jesus as Lord/Saviour, so that would seem to indicate the Spirit baptizing all of us into the Body of Christ worldwide, not just a local setting!

 

[percho]

Our differences of opinion regarding the beginnings of the church are directly connected to our differences in defining a church. More specifically, different readings of I Corinthians 12; and even more specifically, verse 13.

This may seem like I'm chasing a rabbit off-topic, but I think where we start on this subject determines where we come out.

Therefore, I'm going to stir the pot a bit.

I Cor 12:13, KJV says : "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into the body."

This is usually interpreted as describing an act of the Holy Spirit on the body, the universal church.

I suggest that "Spirit" in v 13 is not the Holy Spirit, but means something entirely.

I suggest that "by" the Spirit is better translated "in," which changes the meaning significantly. The Greek "en" is translated "in" more than 1,800 instances in the New Testament.

I suggest that the baptism is not Spirit baptism, but water baptism.

I suggest that the ."body" is not a universal church, but a local church--in this instance, FBC Corinth.

One more thing: Ephesians 4:4 speaks of "one baptism." This suggests to me that you can't have two baptisms. And the one we have is water baptism.

Okay, release the hounds.l

I agree with you and was attempting to show that water baptism (in the name of Christ, for the Spirit, the Comforter is given by the Father in the name of the the Son, Jesus, John 14:26) results in the Spirit being given.

In Acts 19 Paul told them of the Spirit which they had not heard of, they were baptized in the name of Christ and received the Spirit. In Acts 10 they received the Spirit and then were baptized.

Of course in neither of these passages is the church, "assembly," mentioned. I don't think.

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. his is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Acts 4:10,11

Was Jesus Christ of Nazareth always the head of the corner or did he become he head of the corner at a pacific moment in time? Is this speaking of the church that is being built?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear John 16:7 Acts 2:32,33

Does having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit have anything to do with Jesus Christ of Nazareth becoming the head of the corner?

Did the, "he hath shed forth this," have anything to do with the adding of the about three thousand souls?

 

[DHK]

the Baptism of the Spirit gets one into the Church/Body of Christ, water baptism entry way for local church membership...

First, I gave a suitable definition of a local church. Why change it so that it revolves around the Holy Spirit; it doesn't.
Second, I don't believe in a U-Church. It is non existent, contrary to the meaning of ekklesia, impossible to form, cannot have an "unassembled assembly," has no function or purpose on this earth.
So when you speak of this so-called "Church/Body of Christ" you talking to a brick wall or worse. I don't hear you. It is not in my vocabulary. Churches only refer to local assemblies. We enter them through water baptism.

 

[DHK]

I agree with you and was attempting to show that water baptism (in the name of Christ, for the Spirit, the Comforter is given by the Father in the name of the the Son, Jesus, John 14:26) results in the Spirit being given.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

In both of the above verses there is no article or adjective before "body."
In verse 13 the word "spirit" doesn't have to refer to "Holy Spirit," and the overall context would seem to indicate that it isn't. Paul has listed the various parts of the body and is urging the members of the church/assembly or Corinth to work together in harmony, in unity. The thrust of this chapter is on unity. They were a very divisive church. That was one of their main problems, one that he began addressing right from chapter one.

Thus verse thirteen is more aptly translated that in one "spirit" (a spirit of harmony and unity) are we all immersed into one body. When we become members of the local assembly (through water baptism) there needs to be unity and harmony in the assembly. There can't be all these little factions and cliques as there were in the church at Corinth.

Likewise in verse 27. There is no article before "body," and thus the rendering: "Now you are A body of Christ and members in particular. They had been baptized into this local assembly, this body of Christ, and each of them were members of it, and they all had to use their own various gifts and abilities to make it work.
There is no U-church in view here. Everything about this chapter has unity in the local church in view. That is what Paul is stressing.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Is From The NIV

I Cor 12:13, KJV says : "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into the body."

This is usually interpreted as describing an act of the Holy Spirit on the body, the universal church.

It is usually interpreted that way because it is the truth.
"For we were all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body --whether Jews or Gentiles,slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

I suggest that the ."body" is not a universal church, but a local church--in this instance, FBC Corinth.

No,you're wrong. Take a look at 1 Cor.10:17 :"Because there is one loaf,we,who are many,are one body,for we all share the one loaf." The KJV renders it "one bread." It is speaking of the Body of Christ --the Universal Church --not a local expression of it.

One more thing: Ephesians 4:4 speaks of "one baptism." This suggests to me that you can't have two baptisms. And the one we have is water baptism.
l

Wrong again. It is referencing Spirit baptism --when we entered into union with Christ.

You are hung up on the ordinance of baptism. Well,don't you think he should have also mentioned the Lord's Table? Both ordinances are equal and one should not be diminished in favor of the other. No,Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism. And that is for all believers in all ages --the Church Universal.

 

[Rippon]

So when you speak of this so-called "Church/Body of Christ" you talking to a brick wall or worse. I don't hear you. It is not in my vocabulary.

Yeah,just like you turn a deaf ear to other biblical truths like the gift of faith.

 

[DHK]

Yeah,just like you turn a deaf ear to other biblical truths like the gift of faith.

Are you the Baptist Pope, the sole arbitrator and interpreter of Scripture, with no other opinions allowed. You don't believe in either sola scriptura or the priesthood of the believer do you?

I have as firm a case as you do in your "opinion," if not scripturally stronger.

 

[percho]

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

In both of the above verses there is no article or adjective before "body."
In verse 13 the word "spirit" doesn't have to refer to "Holy Spirit," and the overall context would seem to indicate that it isn't. Paul has listed the various parts of the body and is urging the members of the church/assembly or Corinth to work together in harmony, in unity. The thrust of this chapter is on unity. They were a very divisive church. That was one of their main problems, one that he began addressing right from chapter one.

Thus verse thirteen is more aptly translated that in one "spirit" (a spirit of harmony and unity) are we all immersed into one body. When we become members of the local assembly (through water baptism) there needs to be unity and harmony in the assembly. There can't be all these little factions and cliques as there were in the church at Corinth.

Likewise in verse 27. There is no article before "body," and thus the rendering: "Now you are A body of Christ and members in particular. They had been baptized into this local assembly, this body of Christ, and each of them were members of it, and they all had to use their own various gifts and abilities to make it work.
There is no U-church in view here. Everything about this chapter has unity in the local church in view. That is what Paul is stressing.

There is a lot of Spirit or spirit spoken of in verses 1-12.

The indwelling of Holy Spirit was not relative to the baptism of John but is relative to the baptism in the name of Jesus, see Acts 18:24 -19:6.

Why? And is that Spirit relative to being added to the church being built regardless of location of any particular assembly?

Can the church at Corinth be built without the Spirit?

 

[Rippon]

You don't believe in either sola scriptura or the priesthood of the believer do you?

Why lie about me DHK? Are you that frustrated? You are supposed to be a moderator. Act like one.

 

[agedman]

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

In both of the above verses there is no article or adjective before "body."
In verse 13 the word "spirit" doesn't have to refer to "Holy Spirit," and the overall context would seem to indicate that it isn't. Paul has listed the various parts of the body and is urging the members of the church/assembly or Corinth to work together in harmony, in unity. The thrust of this chapter is on unity. They were a very divisive church. That was one of their main problems, one that he began addressing right from chapter one.

Thus verse thirteen is more aptly translated that in one "spirit" (a spirit of harmony and unity) are we all immersed into one body. When we become members of the local assembly (through water baptism) there needs to be unity and harmony in the assembly. There can't be all these little factions and cliques as there were in the church at Corinth.

Likewise in verse 27. There is no article before "body," and thus the rendering: "Now you are A body of Christ and members in particular. They had been baptized into this local assembly, this body of Christ, and each of them were members of it, and they all had to use their own various gifts and abilities to make it work.
There is no U-church in view here. Everything about this chapter has unity in the local church in view. That is what Paul is stressing.

I like how you present your views, and back your statements with precision.

Would that I could have that ability.

I understand your statement against the U-church and would agree that such an assembly is non-existent at this time in this present state of this world. I really don't have a problem when someone uses the wording in a discussion when referring to all the assemblies.

I would like to tease out your thinking as to if ever there is and/or as to where the u-church is in existence now?

For instance: The ones "present with the Lord" are pictured in the Rev. as under the altar awaiting the call to arms.

Would you view them as the "first" u-church; that, upon the return with Christ, there will be one u-church during the millennial reign?

Those that reject a millennial reign of course would disagree the existence of those folks at that place.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is room to describe the church in a generic or institutional sense. It is the same sense in which Paul writes "the husband is head of the wife." Paul is writing in a generic sense, but this truth takes concrete expression in a real, live husband and a real, live wife. And "the church" takes concrete expression in specific, local, real, live assemblies.

And there will come a time when there will be one assembly, of the same heart and mind. It will be that great General Assembly where Jesus reigns.

It will be the real universal church--and it will assemble.

No such entity exists today, because it can't.

 

[Rippon]

The Church Universal is the Body of Christ.

The local assembly consists of parts of the Body --not the whole.

 

[DHK]

I would like to tease out your thinking as to if ever there is and/or as to where the u-church is in existence now?

For instance: The ones "present with the Lord" are pictured in the Rev. as under the altar awaiting the call to arms.

Would you view them as the "first" u-church; that, upon the return with Christ, there will be one u-church during the millennial reign?

Those that reject a millennial reign of course would disagree the existence of those folks at that place.

I believe all believers today are part of the family of God, the bride of Christ, the kingdom of God, etc. To refer to all believers collectively we have other terms. Personally I like the term "family of God." Historically (and Biblically), that is what they were referred to as. Paul often addressed "My brethren..." or:
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
--She is a "sister" being sent from one local church to another local church, with no concept of a universal church. But there is a concept of "family" involved. We are all brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. So whether it is the rapture or the second coming, when we are all in heaven we will be one great assembly at that time. I refrain from calling the church or assembly in a universal sense here but it certainly is in heaven.

And, yes, in the Millennial Kingdom, I agree, we will be one assembly for Christ will be our visible head ruling from the throne of David and we will rule and reign with Him.

 

[DHK]

There is a lot of Spirit or spirit spoken of in verses 1-12.

The indwelling of Holy Spirit was not relative to the baptism of John but is relative to the baptism in the name of Jesus, see Acts 18:24 -19:6.

Why? And is that Spirit relative to being added to the church being built regardless of location of any particular assembly?

Can the church at Corinth be built without the Spirit?

No, it couldn't be built without the Spirit. This was one church that had all the gifts of the Spirit. Chapter one and verse seven indicates that nothing was held back from them. They had it all. But that was their problem; much like the Charismatics of today--a feeling of spiritual superiority (carnal arrogance), based on the abuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is the problem that Paul addresses in these three chapters 12-14 of 1Corinthians. They were a carnal divisive church, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit (or the abuse thereof), helped them to be that way. In chapter 12, Paul urges them to work together in harmony and unity.

1 Corinthians 12:21 The eye can't tell the hand, "I have no need for you," or again the head to the feet, "I have no need for you."
--Does your eye tell your hand "I have no need for you."

1 Corinthians 12:25 that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 When one member suffers, all the members suffer with it. Or when one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
--There should be no division in the body. What body?
This body of Christ, called the local church at Corinth which has many members.
Verse 26 can only apply to a local church. I don't know you personally, nor what church you attend, nor the members of your church or their needs. The same applies to you regarding me.
Neither one of us can say: "When one member suffers all the members suffer." How does that apply to you and I, and our respective churches? It doesn't. But I know who is suffering in my local church and I pray for them or do whatever I can to help them. It is impossible for these verses in this context to refer to a universal church.

 

[Tom Butler]

When some refer to the Universal Church, they are actually referring to the Kingdom. The two are not the same, and the Scriptures never confuse the two.

T.P. Simmons correctly made the distinction in his book A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine, 1935

The Church is an assembly; the kingdom is the domain of the King.
The church as an assembly is necessarily local; the kingdom is universal.
The church is spoken of as that which is yet to be built (Matt 16). The kingdom is never spoken of as such.
Jesus said "tell it to the church." (Matt 18:17). He never made such a reference regarding the kingdom.
The church is called a body; the kingdom is never called a body.
The church is a democracy under the headship of Christ; The kingdom is a monarchy.
The church is visible and has officers; the kingdom is neither organic nor visible.
Church membership is subject to the democratic action of the body; God places people in the kingdom by the new birth, independently of church action.
We read of the gospel of the kingdom; but never of the gospel of the church.

If we get this right, a lot of things fall into place.

 

[Yeshua1]

First, I gave a suitable definition of a local church. Why change it so that it revolves around the Holy Spirit; it doesn't.
Second, I don't believe in a U-Church. It is non existent, contrary to the meaning of ekklesia, impossible to form, cannot have an "unassembled assembly," has no function or purpose on this earth.
So when you speak of this so-called "Church/Body of Christ" you talking to a brick wall or worse. I don't hear you. It is not in my vocabulary. Churches only refer to local assemblies. We enter them through water baptism.

water Baptism is way baptist churches have the entry way for local church membership..

Spirit Baptism is the entry way into the Body/Bride of Christ...

ALL in the Body are saved, SOME in local churches actually are!

the bible tells us that God sees us all as One Body, bride/body of Christ, so he would see JUST the Church of ALL living and dead saints redeemed by Jesus before him!

there is the Universal Body/Church, of all the redeemed, and those living an part of that are here in local church assemblies!

 

[Tom Butler]

In our discussion of the beginning of the church, it will be helpful to define "church."

Here it is:
It is a group of baptized believers banded together to carry out the will of Jesus Christ. This group existed and acted before Pentecost.

It assembled, held services, did evangelism and ministry work; it had baptism and the Lord's Supper.

And the Head taught about His church on several occasions during his earthly ministry. And He gave its members supernatural power. His power. Then the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[webdog]

In our discussion of the beginning of the church, it will be helpful to define "church."

Here it is:
It is a group of baptized believers banded together to carry out the will of Jesus Christ. This group existed and acted before Pentecost.

It assembled, held services, did evangelism and ministry work; it had baptism and the Lord's Supper.

And the Head taught about His church on several occasions during his earthly ministry. And He gave its members supernatural power. His power. Then the power of the Holy Spirit.

If one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, how did this occur prior to Pentecost? John the Baptist did not baptize in such fashion, but to cleanse from being unclean, as was OT practice.