When Did the Church Start?

What is your take on verse 20 Bro Bob, did he only preach to the souls that rejected the preaching of Noah?

 

No, I think it was the souls of the faithful waiting on the promise of the Mesiah. Those looking forward and waiting, with faith, as we look backward with faith to the cross.

 

I never fully explained that question you asked LeBuick.

You know it does not say He went "back" and preached to them that were in "prison" but by the same "Spirit" , Christ preached to them that were in prison. The scripture says "all" had sinned and come short of the Glory of God, therefore they were all prisoners of sin and by the same Spirit Christ preached to them. It is plain that He by the same Spirit preached to them under the Law and back then. It sure would give an answer for the question you all have been discussing on here on how was the Gospel preached to all those who the two legged preacher never got too, if Christ Himself preached to them.

 

Surely you fellows are not saying no one was saved until the Day of Penecost?

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Luk 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided [him], saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. :BangHead:

 

Of course not, Bob!

But the church is ONLY those who are sealed, indwelt and placed into the Body of Christ. This was not done until AFTER the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
Now there were '4' disciples that Jesus blew on and said 'recieve ye the Holy Ghost but scripture does not state they recieved Him right them and even IF they did the other 7 disciples were not apart of this in filling - Peter being one of them.

However by definition none of the saved OT people are of this group. They were accounted righteous BY their faith, and we are accounted that righteousness THROUGH our Faith. They had to live by law or be accursed, but we are set free from that law (with regard to salvation) and are under grace.

I find it of interest Israel is called Gods wife (He divorced her but is going to recieve her back)
And THEN you have the Bride of Christ, whose wedding feast is being set up by the Father.

Just as God the Father and Jesus are 2 yet one
So those who are saved are 2 differing groups (due to 2 different covenants) yet they are one in essense and being as the Father and the Son are one in essense and being but also distinct.

This is my view and don't know who else holds this 'type' of veiw.

>>>EDITED IN AFTER SEEING YOUR ADDINTION TO YOUR POSTING<<<

...as many as recieved 'Him'...

Who is this 'Him' Bob?
None of the OT saints new who Jesus was to recieve 'Him' or to believe on His name.
They placed their faith in the promise that God would redeem them with a blood that washes sin away and doesn't just cover it. They did not know it would be God himself, and SURELY didn't know it would be due to a PERSON dieing on their behalf. The scriptures states this was mystery to them and even to the angels.

 

How do you explain then that Jesus preached even to those in the days of Noah?

1 Peter 3:
"18": For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

"19": By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

"20": Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

According to this Scripture they were saved by the preaching of Jesus.

 

Go to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", that is the OT.

"Him" is Jesus, the Scripture plainly teaches that.

If they were looking forward to the coming of the Mesiah and Jesus is just that. What else did they need to do when Jesus also told Israel, "repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" before He even turned to others. I think Allan you confine the church to just one group, when that was the first thing Jesus came to do was restore Israel and then break down the middle wall of partition between the Jew and the Greek so we too could become part of Israel.

KJMatt.22

"1": And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

"2": The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

"3": And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

"4": Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

"5": But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

"6": And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

"7": But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

"8": Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

"9": Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

"10": So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

This is my veiw.

 

Mine too, I just believe Christ was refering to the Israel and not Church for they as a nation will not come back according to Gods decree until the 70th week of Daniel (the Tribulation of the Jews) be fulfilled. Which by the way is EXACTLY what we see in the passage of scripture you quote.


1. Notice this is FOR the wedding not to seek out a bride but to seek out guests. They are all apart of the festivities (Kingdom body) But not all are part of the Bride (Church Body). All can come that are invited for the invitation is given to all but not all are the Bride.

2. Notice in vs 4 He invited these 'guests' to come to the wedding that is/has taken place.

3. Again verse 10 states the 'wedding' was furnished with GUESTS not the Bride.

 

Good Thanksgiving morning, Allan.

You said:
But the church is ONLY those who are sealed, indwelt and placed into the Body of Christ. This was not done until AFTER the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
Now there were '4' disciples that Jesus blew on and said 'recieve ye the Holy Ghost but scripture does not state they recieved Him right them and even IF they did the other 7 disciples were not apart of this in filling - Peter being one of them.

The only church in existence at that time was the visible assembly finally located at Jerusalem. It was already 3-plus years old on the day of Pentecost. I realize that you are referring to the universal church. I question the entire concept. I have yet to figure out what purpose it serves. Local, visible churches are doing churches. The universal church's total reason for existence seems to be just to be.

Also, could you help me with the source for the "four" disciples that Jesus blew on? I re-read John 20 and I concluded that there were ten--Judas and Thomas not there. One could even argue that there were many more than ten, since it simply refers to disciples.

And I'm mystified by your argument from silence that even though Jesus said "receive ye the Holy Ghost," doesn't mean they actually received it.

It's like saying that when Jesus told the 11 to "take, eat, this is my body" doesn't mean that actually took and eat because it doesn't specifically say they did. But the next verse (Mark 14:23) says they all drank of the cup. So they drank, because it says so. See why I'm mystified?

I hope your and yours have a blessed Thanksgiving day.

 

It says "likened unto the Kingdom of Heaven" and they better have on the wedding garment. Those in the highways are us.

Eph: 2
"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

"12": That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

"13": But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

"16": And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

"17": And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

"18": For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

"19": Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

"20": And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

If we are no longer aliens to Israel then what are we?

I hope no one gets offended at me for stating what I believe. I mean no harm to no one and also Happy Thanksgiving to you both.

 

Thank you Tom, and Happy Thankgiving with the Blessings of Christ to you and yours as well.

You are right about there probably was those disciples NOT of the 11 soon to be Apostles, but I take (assume) the context refers to those who scripture shows Christ revealing Himself to. ie Thomas, and in Chapter 21 Seven other disciples who HAVE YET TO SEE Jesus.

The 'again' in verse 1 does not refer to showing Himself to these 'disciples' a second time but that His showing or revealing Himself a second time was TO these disciples. Why do I say this, because the ones who had already seen Jesus believed (and Thomas was most definately one of them now) but these did not know Jesus was even raised from the dead as says the scriptures about their understanding before seeing Him. This is also why Peter responds the way he did when He realized this man WAS Jesus and why he dove in and swam to shore as the others rowed back in. So if there are 7 disciples out fishing with Peter that leaves 4 Disciples (of the 11) in the room when Jesus appeared unto them.

You stated:

Ok, but what is the definition of the Church? Is it not basically those who have placed the hope in the suffiency of the death and resurrection Christ with regard to atonement and His promises AND are indwelt and sealed with/by His Spirit.

Scriptures state the disciples (NONE) believed Jesus rose from the dead until there some revelation whether by Angel or Christ Jesus Himself. It was only then there was true belief in who He was because He had to open their understanding that they might know the Truth.

You stated:

And does the scripture say 'and they recieved the Holy Ghost..." as it does so many other times in scripture. Actually it does not, but what we do read in the scriptures is that they are to stay in Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit WIL COME UPON THEM NOT MANY DAYS HENCE. So did He come upon them then leave? Like you state it is on either side an arguement from silence. I simply hold that since Jesus told them the Spirit will come upon them not many days hence, it was not yet given them in the way of sealing and indwelling, for just as you stated previously they were empowered in a sense to do some things.

I like this though cause you are making me rethink to make sure :laugh:
May God richly bless your home this day with His presense and power, brother.

 

Brother Bob, You hopefully know I don't easily offended. And I have no problem with what you hold. [per-say :tongue3: ]

Yes it does say likened unto the Kingdom of Heaven, and a Kingdom is the whole of ALL it's people. Not that all the people are the same. (ie, Bride, Guests, King, Son) They are the same as in who they are: like all Americans would be a people consided apart of America. So all who come to God via Faith under either of the two covenants and are apart of the Kingdom of God. Yet they each have a distinct place IN that Kingdom.

I agree with you but in those same verses you highlighted, please note we are aliens FROM the commonwealth of Israel...Seperated from God - Meaning we were not partakers of the salvation of God like Israel was.

Also - WE are 'fellow citizens WITH the saints', as in apart of them or the whole of Gods people. and [now] of the household (all people of faith) of God. Both Covenants rest on this "Faith" so both partake of the same promised blessing of assurence in His promised salvation through Abraham and not Israel (Jacob).

What are we:
We are the Bride of Christ and a part of the Kingdom of God like they are as well. Neither is greater per say than the other, but both are of great value and position.

 

Bob, Jesus did not come to restore Israel at that time but future yet as we see scripture stating this. Jesus was their stumbling stone and rock of offence that IN THEIR REJECTION the gospel would go to the gentiles that the Jews would be stirred to Jelousy and COME BACK TO God. [Hebrew 9 and 10].

 

To those who would not receive Him.
Go ye to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and as you go preach, repent ye for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Go ye not the way of the Gentiles and the city of the Samartians enter ye not.

If you are right then the Jews that are still waiting on the Mesiah are right also.
I believe in One Church and One Kingdom and One bride. I believe we are now all to sit down at the same table and those of Israel that didn't come in when the Lord came, if they do come in, they will be grafted back into the same vine as we were grafted into. If its not the same then how come we were as a wild olive branch, grafted into the same vine that Israel was broken off from?

 

Yes they will be grafted back in as says the scriptures, but are they not TWO branches of the same vine? Also you can not graft in a dead branch so it was not cut off FOR death but that through it life would come to us and that God would fulfill that OT covenant with them and bring them back unto Himself as a people. IMO

We are not the SAME branch if 'they' will be grafted back into the vine.

As I stated earlier, we ARE the same with regard to a people of God but we are also different as to our positioning in the Kingdom.

If I understood you correctly, Yes the Jews are still looking for their Messiah, and is the very reason for what is stated in Heb. 9 and 10

 

You don't believe Jesus is the Messiah for the Jews?

You don't believe the Jews can be grafted back now into the vine, if they accept Christ?

Also, If we all are grafted to the same Olive Tree, then its One church.

How could He turn to a people who was not His people if Israel was not His people, don't make sense.

 

How in world do you get that from what I posted.
Re-read my last post again. I believe Jesus IS the Messiah for the Jews AND that Yes they WILL be grafted BACK in.
Your conflagating the tree AND the branches as being the same thing. There is ONE Branch that is the Church and ANTHER Branch that is Israel and Both are grafted into the tree who is Christ. They are not the same Branch or scripture would not seperate them as two different branches being grafted (albeit one is removed for a time and then re-grafted BACK in)

 

Don't you really think it takes the branches along with the vine to make a "tree"? I am not saying Israel and we are the same but that God in His wisdom in the last days or fullness of time has brought us all together to make up ONE city. I think I have proved by Scripture that Jesus by the Spirit that raised Him from the dead preached to them in the days of Noah and I suspect thoughout time, for the Gospel was preached unto them the same as unto us. I can get the Scripture if you want.

John 5
"46": For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

"47": But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

"29": And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

"30": As he spake these words, many believed on him.

"31": Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


"22": Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

"23": And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Yes, it says He was a stumbling block when He came, but He said after He arose, then they would know He is the Son of God.

Don't you think it was talking about back then when it was the beginning of receiving the Gentiles and they have had over 2000 years now to believe. :jesus:

 

I too believe we are to be ONE city and ONE people (a people of Faith). When have I said otherwise?

Those who claimed to be believers during Christs ministry but then left due to His hard sayings were the ones who WOULD believe after His resurrection (according to the context of that verse) but Israel as a Nation will not come back to God as Paul states in Rom 9 and 10. They were not then to be reconciled as of yet for it is the time of the Gentiles. During 'The Tribulation' of the Jews or what is known as the 70th week of Daniel will they be reconciled and grafted back in as a NATION of God.

No I don't think it was talking about back then, as it would conflict with what Paul spoke In Romans concerning Israel and the Church being different groups yet the same people of Faith in the Kingdom of God.

 

Well Allan, I don't think you could possibly disagree that the Grace Church in the beginning were Israelites, it was only later that we were accepted in. All that were Israel were not Israel but only the remnant were saved. It was later that we were accepted in. If you disagree with me on this I will be very surprised.

Now, He plainly told the Jews while He was here on earth, "if you did in your sins, where I am you cannot come". That seems to dismiss any future acceptance in of Israel except those who are living and accept Him. He will always accept them back into the fold if they will believe in Him, unless you believe in repentance after death?

As far as I know about Christianity. They believe that Jesus is the Messiah to the Jews and was rejected of them as being the " annointed one", except of course those who did accept Him and He gave them power to become the Sons of God which was the beginning of the Church under the Grace Covenant.