When Did the Church Start?

[Allan]

Tom:

Your renedering of how the scriptures 'could' say something else with regard to I Cor 12 is not a veiw held by many. In that I have learned and studied the Greek (education wise), gramatically I can not see you contention as valid. Also when you add the full counsil of God concerning the Church you see it being spoken of as a whole and Local bodies. However this discussion bears little fruit and does not add much per-say to the discussion at hand, so I will digress here.

Personally the reason I like to post is for the purpose that others may know the 'why' about differing views so they can search it out for themselves. So by the Spirits leading in their own study they may come to know truth for themselves on a topic (whether they agree with me or not - it is about the truth THEY find for themselves).

Thank agian Tom and Brother Bob for the civility and love by which you presented your arguments. :godisgood: :thumbsup:

 

[Tom Butler]

I said I'd lurk for a while, but I have this irresitible compulsion to post again. I fell off the wagon.

Some interesting things happen when you read your Bible. Verses that you went right past suddenly mean something.

In our discussion of the origins of the church, I have taken the position that it was established by Christ during his earthly ministry. I’ve quoted the usual scriptures to back up my view. I found some more, courtesy an article by Pastor Greg Wilson.

The Greek word “ecclesia” literally means called out. Jesus called out his disciples from among the disciples of John the Baptist.

John 1:35-37 John, standing with two of his disciples, pointed out Jesus, saying, “Behold the Lamb of God” And the disciples left him and followed Jesus.

Paul, in Acts 20:20, told the elders of the Ephesus Church to “take heed unto yourselves and to the flock, over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers.” The flock is the church at Ephesus.

Jesus, in Luke 12:32: Fear not little flock…..” The flock is the church he established.
Jesus, in Matthew 26:31 (Quoting from the OT) “…I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered…”

The Twelve were ordained ministers: Mark 3:14 “And he ordained twelve, that he should be with them, and that he might send them forth to preach.”

When the 120 met to select Judas’ replacement, one of the qualifications was that they had to have “companied with us all the time that Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John.” Acts 1:20-21 A church in existence for 3-and-a-half years. Before Pentecost.

I’ve written previously that this new church had a Founder and Head. The twelve had power. In Matthew 10:5 following, Jesus told them to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out devils. Jesus gave the twelve a commission in that passage and the Holy Spirit empowered them. I’ve also pointed out that the church had baptism and the Lord’s Supper, and they not only had the commission of Matthew 10, they had the Great Commission of Matthew 28.

Jesus said he would build His church and that’s exactly what he did--in person. The church was more than in an embryonic stage. It was already born, in its infancy.

The only thing it had on the Day of Pentecost that it did not have the day before was 3000 more members--and Jesus’ replacement, the Holy Spirit..

http://users.aol.com/libcfl/proofs.htm




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[Brother Bob]

Tell you the truth, I am not at peace either . There is more to it than just Jesus setting up His Grace Church. He had to have someone to set it up with, and it had to be those who came out of the wilderness, as the following Scripture shows. John didn't come to "prepare" a people, but he came to "make ready" a PREPARED people, and those people are those who came up out of the wilderness.

Luke, chapter 1

"17": And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Who were these people if not the wilderness church)?

Now, I agree that the Grace Church began when Jesus began His work that He came to do. First go to the House of Israel, (the church which came out of the wilderness) and then break down the middle wall so ALL men could have a right to Salvation if they would believe on Jesus, repent and be baptized.
The "Grace" church had to include those under the Law for that was the "elect" and Paul said of "who I am also" and Paul certainly was a part of the Grace Church.
All the reading you will do in the NT, always refers to those of Israel being a part.

I think I just had to say that and I guess I will digress now.

 

[Tom Butler]

Brother Bob, I'm not qualified to discuss your views at length. The "church in the wilderness" is an area which I haven't studied.

My only observation is that the members of the first church were Jews. And in Matthew 10:5-6, when Jesus sent out the 12 to preach he specifically told them not to go to the Gentiles or Samaritans, but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

I have now told you all I know about this. Anything further would reveal my ignorance to all.

 

[Brother Bob]

The OP was "when did the church start"?

It didn't say "when did the Grace Church start, but when did the "church" start. Well according to the following scriptures the "church" started even before the Law Covenant.

This is what Stephan said about it before they stoned him to death and he was a Christian Jew which had come out from under the Law to the Grace Covenant.

Acts, chapter 7
36: He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37: This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38: This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


This is where Christ went and preached to them in the days of Noah by the same Spirit that raised Him from the dead. They were in "prison, condemned to die" unless they believed the flood was coming.

1 Peter, chapter 3
18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Church in Greek means (Assembly, Congregation)

They had "High Priest", They had a place to worship, They had Preachers of righteous, They had the Gospel (power of God), They even had the Holy Ghost, They had faith and were looking for the Messiah, They had the oracles that were to be given unto us.

Caiaphas actually mentioning Jesus by name in his prophecy:

but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

You can’t read the NT and the Grace Church without stepping all over Israel, The Law and the Prophets. Jesus had not problem with them at all, as a matter of fact, He went to them first.

Also if they are to be grafted back in, then they must of been in. I am just posting what I believe Tom, you can disagree or agree but I think you and others should at least give consideration to the scriptures that I have put forth.

The Grace Church is for sure different for the first was not good enough, If it was not good enough and there had to be a second established then don’t you think it was and is offered to them also. It was offered to them first. The first Christian Churches were Jews, including Jesus. I doubt if anyone believes the first 4000 years went down the drain. :wavey:

 

[Tom Butler]

Oh, Brother Bob, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. In fact, I think my post supports what you're saying. I think.

 

[Brother Bob]

No Tom, please don't take me wrong. I didn't say that at all. You said you didn't know much about it and I was only telling you some of the things I had learned. Once again, please don't misunderstand me. I think sometimes you think I am being harsh when in fact I am not but only talking to you.

BBob

 

[Tom Butler]

Brother Bob, thank you. I did misread you, and I appreciate the clarification.

 

[Allan]

You two crack me up... You are true Baptists - LOL :laugh:

And now I guess I am to :tongue3:

Be careful assuming the word ekklesia (called out) means at all times christians as it does not. And just because someone is called out does not mean they are saved. The meaning for the 'Called out ones being Saved' (or the NT Church) is found in Jesus statement of building His church and the gates of hell shall not prevent it or not stop them from being called out from Hell. Gates are a pretty good stopping mechinism would you not agree but those gates are powerless to keep them in Hell when Christ calls them forth. Just in Case: what I mean by "calling them out of Hell" is that all men due to sin are technically IN Hell whether now (dead) or at a later time (being still alive and not yet dead) but are a condemed to the Judgment of Hell and it is Christ alone who redeems them FROM Hell.

What do I mean by Ekklesia being used other than for christians. We see this word in scripture also used describing a 'heathen' or unsaved assembly in Acts 19:32, 39,41 AND we see it refering to a body of Jewish people assembled together that were not Saved either in Acts 7:38

To be called out from Johns group did not save the disciples as salvation is about being called OUT of Hell and IN TO CHrist. Remember THE ONLY TIME Jesus speaks of where this church come from (as in it's beginning) is still future tense but most importantly that THIS assembly (ekklasia) would be those came spiritually out from the gates of Hell. Up till His Resurrection this was not possible as there was no perfect sacrifice by to redeem man from their sin and bound them TO hell.

Yes, Jesus did call the disciples UNTO Him but they were not saved in the NT sense until after Christs death and Resurrection that by the Holy Spirt they would be placed then INTO Christ. I believed they were kept by Christ (as in from death) until that baptism of the Holy Spirit but Christs salvation according to scripture is about being IN CHRIST and SEALED there. Remember also: Without the shedding of blood THERE IS NO remission of sins - therefore they disciples were still in their sins.

You can say Israel was a Church in the sense they were called out assembly or group of people (as in the wilderness) but they are not the NT Church.


The disciples with Christ was an ekklasia or Church/assembly but not a The Church in the NT sense of savlation. You can not be a biblical Church unless you are bought by the blood of Christ and sealed with His Spirit. The Disciples were not the Church because they were called out physically or verbally. If that was the case then Judas was the first Christian to loose his salvation for he was called out and followed Christ but fell away from that assembly or church body. And Yes Judas was Called out just like the others.

And the godless heathen can even be called a church (as in Acts 19 - the word there for assembly of the unsaved Ephesians is ekklasia) as they are an assembly as well but they are not the "Called out assembly of blood bought Spirit Sealed believers".

There is my nickle again, and agian.

See what you to started again ... LOL

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, I know that the word ekklesia means an assembly or congregation of any sort. The fact that Stephen used it as a church in the wilderness is what I was speaking of.
Again, the reason I first responded way back is because the OP asked when was the beginning of the Church. He never stated the NT or Grace Church.
If I were to make a statement on that NT Church then I think its beginning was when Christ called out His twelve apostles for He called them into something and I think it was the beginning of the Church. I think Jesus had the same power the Holy Ghost has and gave it to the Apostles, for they healed the blind, made the lame to walk and someone even tried to buy the Holy Ghost from them.
You know the Church of Christ believe that the 4 Gospels are not to us but I believe they are. If we leave them off we sure miss out on a lot of information about how Jesus wanted us to live. The Apostles were baptizing people into something and if it was not the Church, then what was it.

I really think we have whipped this puppy though, don't you?

 

[Tom Butler]

Yeah, Bro. Bob, we have whipped this puppy. I thought I had whipped it enough, but couldn't resist getting back into the discussion.

Allan, I thank you for your discussion on "ekklesia." Frankly, I have never heard the point of view you expressed in your last post,

Is it a typically dispensationalist view? If so, then I'm out of my league.

I have enjoyed this discussion, though. I think I'm through, but I said that once before.

Okay, puppy, rest for a while.

Hey, I just noticed this is my 900th post. I've got to get a life.

 

[Allan]

Yes, I do agree this horse is beat just about dead. After we seemed to be done it started back again :smilewinkgrin:

I know you hold that Israel is the Church to which the NT Church was made a part of. But as I have stated before with regard to this: I do not hold this view that they are one and the same. ie The Church is now spiritual Israel. I hold that Stevens use of Ekklasia in the wilderness was not to try to establish WHEN the Church started (in the Wilderness) as the context of his speaking does not hold here but that he is speaking of a group who was saved by being called out by God from Egypt. This example the people understood and he used a/the word ekklasia which illistrated God doing much the same thing but in a new and different way. If the OT Church started anywhere it would have been Enoch (I think he was called WAY OUT don't you :laugh: )

I have also stated my reasons for believing the Church did not begin with Jesus simply calling the disciples apart. I believe the Church is comprised of Blood bought saints that are Indwelt and Sealed. I will simple give again a short list of why I don't hold to the others:

1. The disciples did not believe He was the sacrificial Lamb of God by which their sins are to be removed. They did not truly or better fully believe until after the Resurrection and scripture bears it out concerning their unbelief. Can the unbelieving be apart of the Church???
2. Though Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one they are not the same person nor have the same functions with regard to the Church and Christian living. Jesus does have the same power as the Holy Ghost but just as the Holy Ghost in the OT empowered men whos sin was only covered and not washed away (He also empowered sinful men at times whom He called out - One example is Sampson) , so to Jesus empowered His disciples (Including Judas the unsaved betrayer just like the Holy Spirit did). However being physically called out and empowered does not place you into the Church.
3. The Church is made up of BLOOD BOUGHT SPIRIT SEALED beleivers. No one before the Resurrection and Pentacost fits this mandate.
4. Yes the OT saints were awaiting this cleansing of Christs blood as all people of Faith must but the Church is not Israel and Israel in the NT is NOT the Church. 71 out of 73 times in the NT where Israel is used it is used to define an ethnic nation NOT the Church. The other two are general terms showing similarity. Within the relm of Replacement theology you have to alagorize much of OT and NT Millenial Prophesy concerning Israel. It is funny all the prophesies toward Israel regarding punishment belong to the Ethnic Nation but all the promises of Blessing to Israel are superimposed upon the Church. I don't much like trying to alagorize a good portion of scripture .

But basically it boils down to the scriptures that state the Church is made up of blood bought Spirit indwelt beleivers who are sealed. For me this seals it so for me this is where I stand and is what I am pursuaded to
.

I know you guys differ with each other and myself. So how about we let some others chime in and bring fresh thoughts to the table. As Brother Bob stated, we have about worn 'our' discussion out. Thank both you gentlemen for your Godly attitudes in this. At least the Church IS - AMEN!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Ok............

Thou art Christ the Son of the Living God.
Closing,:laugh:

 

[Allan]

Allan, I thank you for your discussion on "ekklesia." Frankly, I have never heard the point of view you expressed in your last post,

Is it a typically dispensationalist view? If so, then I'm out of my league.

I haven't heard anyone go into as much depth at once. Mostly it is a little of this portion and little of that portion concerning the depth of when the Church started. I know there are some who hold this view (Dr. Vines is one I can think of off the top of my head for a known name to give) but yes many who hold the Church at pentacost view would agree with much if not all of what I stated.

 

[Allan]

Yes, He made the proclaimation but did he believe it - (wonder who it was that left the empty tomb wondering what had happened and then went back to his old life of fishing)

Brother Bob, we really are Baptist aren't we. :tongue3: :thumbsup:

 

[Tom Butler]

Can't let this thing go.

You said:
I know you hold that Israel is the Church to which the NT Church was made a part of.

I think you concluded this after my comment that the first members of the church Jesus established were Jews. I didn't mean to imply that.

Now, I'm done.




I think.

 

[Allan]

Can't let this thing go.

You said:
I know you hold that Israel is the Church to which the NT Church was made a part of.

Actually that part was toward Bob (that paragraph actually) the rest wsa a culmination of the two.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, actually I believe the Grace Church is the NT church and Israel Jesus included the remnant of Israel when He set it up.

Also while I am at it. "Behold, The Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world"
:laugh:

 

[ituttut]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler Originally Posted by jne1611
ittutt,

What is the "body church" as opposed to other kinds?

Jne1611:Good Question. That, I guess has been my question as well

Yes, a good question. I have written on this before, in other places (boards, and elsewhere), so "bits" of this could look familiar to some.

I find His Word speaks of a "church in the Wilderness", as does Brother Bob, and some others. This is just one more thing that proves to me (helped make me a "dispensationalist") His Word wishes we to know God is a God of "division", for we are to correctly "divide His Word".

When do we find out about this church in the wilderness? Not until God is ready to reveal this, and we notice this information comes after Pentecost, when Jesus Christ advised further understanding would come to His people by the Holy Ghost. This is a good place to notice, no Gentile would be apprized of any new information, for Pentecost was for those that would be going into the "kingdom that was at hand". Pentecost is all about God and His people.

Acts 7:38 is presented to us by Steven who evidently just "glowed in the Holy Ghost". It was very evident none could stand against him, while "full of the Holy Ghost", so they, the house of Israel "killed" him. We know from scripture that the nation Israel had one year from Pentecost to accept Messiah. They did not, so they killed Steven, and they "rejected the Holy Ghost's testimony". The parable says they (God) talked it over and the Holy Ghost said let's give them a year.

But Jesus told His Apostles in the "great commission" to Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. This never happened for the gospel is to the Jew first (they have yet to accept Messiah), and then to the whole world. That "gospel will be " preached to the whole world by the 144,000 of Israel in the "tribulation period". Jesus told His people to preach that Gospel, as it is not "our gospel". The Gentile's will hear the "gospel of Paul", and they will teach it in this "dispensation". Their turn comes next.

How do we know this? His Word reveals this information to us in Acts 10, for we witness Peter had never preached to or at a "heathen Gentile". Jesus never preached the gospel of John the Baptist to a Gentile, and neither did any of His earthly Apostles. In order for the "Body Church" to form and become acceptable God employed Peter to be the first shown in scripture to preach the "Christian" message of the Body Church to a Gentile. What Peter preached to the Gentile's was nothing like the gospel to the "circumcised". We know this was quite some time after Paul had been commissioned by Christ Jesus from heaven, to be the only Apostle to the Gentile, and also to the Jew as shown in Acts 9.

The "Body Church" was unknown and did not exist until after we are shown justification by the Grace of God through faith, and it is not until after Christ spoke to Paul do we find this out. It is Paul that tells of the Grace of God justifying us today through the faith of Jesus Christ. It is Jesus that did the work for us. We are to receive the "gift" of salvation He offers us. Did any know of the "church in the wilderness" until God revealed it to Steven? Did any know of the "Kingdom Church" that was at hand before John the Baptist? We know they didn't. So why do we doubt the gospel of Paul which gospel was given to him by Christ Jesus from heaven. We know scripture says this was "hidden" by God. Until the "Body of Christ" becomes known no Gentile could ever become a "son of God". While on earth He said He never came for the Gentile Dog. I believe Him.

Kingdom Church a continuation of the "Old Testament" with God dealing and talking to His People.

Body Church is New and was hidden by God that now all in the "Kingdom Church, and the Body Church" will be son's of God, but the Body Church foundation on Christ Jesus is of Paul, and the Kingdom Church foundation on Jesus Christ is of Peter.

In the The Kingdom Church the shadow of the Cross is Israel's guilt - Acts 2:36, and 5:28; Then by their fall "...., Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy", Romans 11:11

In The Body Church the Cross' object is His Grace and His Glory - I Corinthians 1:18; Ephesians 1:6

 

[Tom Butler]

ituttut,
Is your view something you came to understand from the scriptures, or are there others who hold this view and have written on it?

It's new to me, and I'd like to read more about it.