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When did??

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Frogman, Oct 16, 2002.

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  1. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Here you seem to imply, Moses and Noah went "to Abraham's bosom"...

    What about those who were before Abraham?

    Adam, Abel, Enoch...even Noah was before Abram (Abraham);

    Are you implying even these "awaited" the manifestation in "Abraham's bosom" til the time of the completion of the eternal covenant; were presented with the "gospel" and believed and then were released? What are some implications of this theory?

    1) first and foremost; Christ is from everlasting; he said before Abraham was I am; however, for your premise to stand, those saints of the O.T. would by necessity would go to "Abraham's bosom" at death, and this before the existence of Abraham, unless you believe Abraham had a "pre-existence" in (either eternity) or a portion of eternity past, prior to being born into the world.

    2) If this is not the implication, who moderated the afterlife, before Abraham displaced him?

    you are correct (I should get to know the O.T. a little better.

    Jesus also said: " Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testify of me." John 5.39

    From First to Last our Holy Bible Testifies of Him. A greater knowledge of the O.T. would increase my knowledge of the "whole" person of Christ, from eternity to eternity.

    What scripture did Jesus mean? since He is speaking to Jews I am certain He is referencing the O.T.

    God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.

    Bro. Dallas

    [ October 17, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
    #21 Frogman, Oct 17, 2002
  2. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    This is supposed to Prove Total Inability??

    Put the veses in the proper context.

    Just a question..Do calvinist walk in the Flesh or do they Not ever get in the flesh??
     
    #22 shilo, Oct 17, 2002
  3. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    Frogman..

    Were people saved the same way in the old testament as in the new..yes or no..

    with the exception of elijah and enoch..did any of them go to heaven?? Or do you read in Luke that there were people in abrahams bosom..

    lets just stop running around on the hamster wheel shall we??

    were people in the old testament saved by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ or did they have to make continual sacrafices because the blood of bulls and goats could not wash away sin.
     
    #23 shilo, Oct 17, 2002
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I have dealt with the verses in context. But for your sake I will do it again quickly.

    This is the context of Pharisees who called him illegitimate, claimed to believe and love God. Christ pointed out that the truth could set them free. Yet he says "Why do not understand? It is because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do." In the context, the reason they could not understand was because of who their father was.

    This verse is in the context of why it is that people don't believe. Christ says "There are some of you who don't believe." John adds that Christ knew from the beginning who it was and for this reason he said, "You cannot believe unless the FAther gives it to you." Again, the context is perfectly clear that coming to God (which is synonymous with believing in teh context) cannot happen unless God gives it to them to come.

    The context of Romans 8 makes it clear that those who are in the flesh are unsaved. v. 9 gives a clear contrast that you are "in the flesh" unless the Spirit of Christ dwells in you. If the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in you, you are not his ... you are in the flesh ... you do not have life.

    So if your question is, Do Calvinists still have sin natures and still struggle with sin, the answer is Yes. If you are asking, Are calvinists "in the flesh" as described in Rom 8, the answer is "not if they are saved."

    So now you have the verses in context, showing them to say just what I have suggested they say. Why don't you explain why you disagree? Use the context to support you.
     
    #24 Pastor Larry, Oct 17, 2002
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Shilo,

    I have already answered that question.

    Those in the O.T. were saved by the same Blood of the Same Lamb of God as you and I and any who ever were and will be.

    Those sacrifices of the O.T. were given to Israel to point toward the manifestation of the Lamb of God. Check Heb. 11.19 Cf. Gen. 22. 4,5 & 7, 8 also; Heb. 1.3

    Apart from God manifested in the flesh; (Jesus Christ), even those sacrifices of the O.T. were useless.

    Yes, I read in Luke of Abraham's bosom, however, I cannot see how Noah and others went to a place, other than the eternal dwelling of God, before Abraham was, They simply looked afar off and saw Christ, we simply look afar back and see Christ;

    1 Pet. 1.8-12

    Sorrow about the hamster thing, bet your legs are growing weary. Isa. 40.31 I however am not running in circles, The same Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, and washed cleaned my sinfulness by His blood provided the same quickening in the spirit of all who have received His Spirit. When I begin to think otherwise, I will begin to run in circles, with no end, nor rest.

    God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #25 Frogman, Oct 18, 2002
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