When do we become "Beloved?"

[Van]

Romans 9:25 NASB
as He also says in Hosea:

“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

One school of thought is that God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world based on their interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. Thus it follows, that all those individuals became beloved and God's people before the foundation of the world.

However Romans 9:25 presents a difficulty with that view, people not previously chosen to be God's people are said to become God's people. People who were not previously beloved become beloved.

If we look back to Hosea, who were considered "God's people" at that time? Believing Jews. And who became God's people for His own possession under the New Covenant? Believing Jews and Gentiles.

Can we nullify the verse by saying this only refers to what people thought rather than what God had determined? Those that take such a cleaver to God's word, will make it say whatever they want.

 

[37818]

Being chosen before human creation and credited through faith in one's present. The latter would be when one is among the beloved.

 

[Van]

Being chosen corporately before human creation and then trusting in God during our physical lifetime does not put the person in Christ. Only when God credits their faith as doing the right thing does the individual meet the criteria for the target group, i.e.believers as determined by God were to be redeemed by the Lamb of God.

 

[Van]

If we were chosen individually as foreseen individuals, with or without faith, we would have always been a chosen people, and would never have been "not a people."

If we were chosen individually as foreseen individuals, with or without faith, we would have always had received mercy, and would never have "not had received mercy."

See 1 Peter 2:9-10

 

[Van]

When did we, born anew believers become beloved?

Under the New Covenant, when we are born anew we become beloved by God. See Romans 1:7.

Under the Old Covenant, believing Jews, and some proselites were beloved by God, and were sent to Abraham's bosom.

Thus we become beloved during our physical lifetime. Hard to square with being individually chosen before creation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 9:25 NASB
as He also says in Hosea:

“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

One school of thought is that God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world based on their interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. Thus it follows, that all those individuals became beloved and God's people before the foundation of the world.

However Romans 9:25 presents a difficulty with that view, people not previously chosen to be God's people are said to become God's people. People who were not previously beloved become beloved.

If we look back to Hosea, who were considered "God's people" at that time? Believing Jews. And who became God's people for His own possession under the New Covenant? Believing Jews and Gentiles.

Can we nullify the verse by saying this only refers to what people thought rather than what God had determined? Those that take such a cleaver to God's word, will make it say whatever they want.

Before the foundation. And those in the text were always Gods beloved people secretly in election, the elect gentiles.

 

[Van]

I see two Calvinists agreeing that Scripture is wrong, the Gentiles supposedly secretly elected per Ephesians 1:4 were "always God's beloved."

Romans 9:25
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”​

Truth matters!

 

[canadyjd]

Scripture is clear believers are beloved of God prior to salvation.

1John 4:10 and 19

“and this is love, not that you loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son as a propitiation for our sin…”

“we love God because He first loved us”

I can reconcile my reformed beliefs with these passages and the passage from Romans.

No need for a cleaver, just a proper understanding of scripture in the context it was written.

peace to you

 

[Brightfame52]

I see two Calvinists agreeing that Scripture is wrong, the Gentiles supposedly secretly elected per Ephesians 1:4 were "always God's beloved."

Romans 9:25
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”​

Truth matters!

Gentiles were beloved of the Lord and chosen in Christ before the foundation, thats what Rom 9 is about, the call of the Gentiles. Are you denying these Gentiles were not beloved of God before the foundation Eph 1:4-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You dont be thinking.

 

[canadyjd]

Gentiles were beloved of the Lord and chosen in Christ before the foundation, thats what Rom 9 is about, the call of the Gentiles. Are you denying these Gentiles were not beloved of God before the foundation Eph 1:4-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You dont be thinking.

Careful with 2 Thess 2:13. Some just skip from “chosen for salvation through… “..directly to “”belief in the truth”

They ignore work of sanctification (being set apart) by the God Holy Spirit… and make salvation completely dependent on belief as a work that God then responds to by granting salvation.

FYI

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

However Romans 9:25 presents a difficulty with that view, people not previously chosen to be God's people are said to become God's people. People who were not previously beloved become beloved.

I never really entertained the possibility that God's choice of a people before the foundation of the world was a difficulty, since I read and believed what Ephesians 1 said some 21 years ago when I first laid eyes on it.
But upon thinking about what you stated in the above, Van, I turned in my Bible and read the below:

" Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." ( Ephesians 2:11-18 ).

I understand, in the above, that the Gentiles were strangers from the covenants of promise ( what was promised to Israel in the Old Testament ).
I also see that the "partition" being spoken of here is the "wall" of separation that God put between Israel, as a nation, and the Gentile nations...
An earthly wall of separation between Israel, God's national chosen people, and the Gentiles; which were not chosen to be the recipients of many of the Old Testament promises made to national Israel.


To me, it also symbolizes the spiritual wall of separation between all of the elect and the people of this world outside of Christ.

 

[Dave G]

The elect Gentiles ( as God told the Ephesian believers through Paul's writing to them ) were no less chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world...
But, in the earthly sense they were not God's people as Israel is and was.

The Gentile believers ( those outside the physical lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the "fathers" of both physical and spiritual Israel ) are now, by the blood of the cross, "grafted" into the spiritual olive tree of Israel ( Romans 11 ).
In other words, the elect within Israel and the elect within the Gentiles are now both one "nation" ( "world", see John 3:16, 1 John 2:2 and others ) under the new covenant in Christ's blood.

God is not yet done with Israel as a nation, as He is still calling His elect from among the Gentiles.
When that is done, the end of this current world system, run by those who hate the Lord, will come... and national Israel will see their Saviour ( Zechariah 12, John 19:37 ).

I also take note that until the word went out from Israel in Acts of the Apostles 10, there was no wholesale calling of God's elect outside of national Israel.
Then God sent Peter to Cornelius, a Roman soldier.
After that, Paul and Barnabas were sent forth to be used of God to call others of His elect in Asia Minor, Greece and in other places.


Gentile believers...
Still elect, still chosen from the foundation of the world to be His people, yet treated differently in the national sense than Israel; until Christ suffered on the cross for all of them.

 

[Van]

I see lots of verbiage but did you explain how someone individually chosen in Him would not be beloved?

Post #11 was non-germane.

Post #12 tries to make the cause the Gentiles were part of the chosen people, from God's point of view, but the inspired author of scripture simply expressed the earthly point of view. Absurd nonsense.

 

[Van]

Gentiles were beloved of the Lord and chosen in Christ before the foundation, thats what Rom 9 is about, the call of the Gentiles. Are you denying these Gentiles were not beloved of God before the foundation Eph 1:4-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You dont be thinking.

Good Grief, is this all you have? The Gentiles were beloved before creation, yet were not beloved per Romans 9:25.

Yes, the nobody was beloved before they were individually, not corporately chosen during their lifetime. The issue to not that Christ is beloved, the issue is when did we become beloved.

Lastly you seem to be suggesting, without a direct statement, that "from the beginning" refers to before the beginning. Even if we set that nonsense aside, the beginning in view is not creation, but when the New Covenant was inaugurated.

 

[Van]

In order to get around the plain meaning of verse after verse, being beloved, being God's people, receiving mercy, the opponents of truth take a cleaver to scripture and claim it does not mean what it says. Go figure. This appears to illustrate the truth of Christ's words about "traditions" being used to make scripture to no effect.

 

[canadyjd]

Scripture is clear believers are beloved of God prior to salvation.

1John 4:10 and 19

“and this is love, not that you loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son as a propitiation for our sin…”

“we love God because He first loved us”

I can reconcile my reformed beliefs with these passages and the passage from Romans.

No need for a cleaver, just a proper understanding of scripture in the context it was written.

peace to you

Peace

 

[Van]

I see yet another cleaver has been used to claim born anew believers were "beloved" before being born anew. Apparently the idea is we were never not beloved, which of course chops up Romans 9:25.

John4:10 NASB (as footnoted)
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the means of reconciliation for our sins.

What does this verse say?

In this is love, by using the noun form of love, the idea is to present what characterizes God's love for humanity.

Not that we loved God, that does not illustrate the characteristic of God's love for humanity. Here "loved" is the verb indicating our action to love and continue to love. So our act of love (verb) does not characterize God's love for humanity.

But that He loved us, using the verb referring to the action of God to send His Son to die as the Lamb of God. This characterizes God's love for humanity.

Does any of this relate to the adjective "beloved?" Nope

​

 

[Van]

How is "beloved" used in the New Testament?

1) In the gospels, God's Son, the Christ is referred to as "beloved." (Also quoted in 2 Peter 1:17)

2) In the rest of the New Testament, any born anew member of God's family, a sibling of Christ.

3) Paul refers to those born anew he helped lead to Christ as his children, my beloved.

 

[canadyjd]

I notice a poster has no answer for 1 John 4, which very clearly states we love God because He first loved us.

Looks like a “cleaver” is being used to hack away all passages which disprove the theory of the OP. That is typical of some posters.

The only thing missing, so far, is to claim victimhood, which is coming, I’m sure.

As I stated, I can reconcile the passages from 1 John and Romans with my reformed understanding of scripture.

Some ignore the passages they cannot reconcile, hacking away with a cleaver God’s Word in an attempt to force God to conform to their preconceived bias.

Another waste of cyber space while folks are dying and going to hell because of “slacking soul winners” (according to some posters)

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Romans 9:25 NASB
as He also says in Hosea:

“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

One school of thought is that God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world based on their interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. Thus it follows, that all those individuals became beloved and God's people before the foundation of the world.

However Romans 9:25 presents a difficulty with that view, people not previously chosen to be God's people are said to become God's people. People who were not previously beloved become beloved.

If we look back to Hosea, who were considered "God's people" at that time? Believing Jews. And who became God's people for His own possession under the New Covenant? Believing Jews and Gentiles.

Can we nullify the verse by saying this only refers to what people thought rather than what God had determined? Those that take such a cleaver to God's word, will make it say whatever they want.

IMHO we became "beloved" when we are a member of Christ ("in Christ", "the Beloved"), much like we are righteous when we are in "the Righteous One", "clothed with His righteousness".

I believe we can find support for this view in the Hebrew belief of positional justification (being justified in relation to one's position in tge "people of God").