-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
When do we become "Beloved?"
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Do you see a difference between being “loved” by God before we love Him (1 John 4) and being the “beloved” of God?
peace to you
Some difference.
The "beloved of God" speaks to the people of God but being loved by God could be more individualistic. The difference would be "being loved" versus "the Loved".
We do not even have to look that far from Romans 9:25.
Romans 1:7 (NET)
To all those loved by God in Rome, called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ! [Note: "those loved" is the "beloved" adjective]
The beloved have been called to be saints or those set apart in Christ. Thus a born anew sibling of Christ, and part of God's family.
Ephesians 5:1(NASB)
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
Children of God are "beloved children."
1 John 3:2 (NASB)
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Here the beloved are born anew children of God.
Last edited:
Pointless Post = Taint so
The naysayers have nothing to say so they offer gratuitous disparagement.
How is "beloved" used in the New Testament?
1) In the gospels, God's Son, the Christ is referred to as "beloved." (Also quoted in 2 Peter 1:17)
2) In the rest of the New Testament, any born anew member of God's family, a sibling of Christ is "beloved."
3) Paul refers to those born anew he helped lead to Christ as his children, my beloved.
4) In the parable of the Vine-growers, Jesus in parable indicates the grower's son is beloved.
5) In Romans 11:28, The non-believing Jews, are considered beloved because of their heritage, as descendants of Abraham and potentially part of His family that had obtained approval through Old Covenant faith. However using a stricter examination, they were beloved because (1)they had gained approval under the old Covenant, and (2) were being used by God to facilitate the spread of the gospel to Gentiles.
The naysayers have nothing to say so they offer gratuitous disparagement.
How is "beloved" used in the New Testament?
1) In the gospels, God's Son, the Christ is referred to as "beloved." (Also quoted in 2 Peter 1:17)
2) In the rest of the New Testament, any born anew member of God's family, a sibling of Christ is "beloved."
3) Paul refers to those born anew he helped lead to Christ as his children, my beloved.
4) In the parable of the Vine-growers, Jesus in parable indicates the grower's son is beloved.
5) In Romans 11:28, The non-believing Jews, are considered beloved because of their heritage, as descendants of Abraham and potentially part of His family that had obtained approval through Old Covenant faith. However using a stricter examination, they were beloved because (1)they had gained approval under the old Covenant, and (2) were being used by God to facilitate the spread of the gospel to Gentiles.
Last edited:
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Van
Well elect jews and gentiles were beloved in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him[the beloved] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Well elect jews and gentiles were beloved in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him[the beloved] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Proclaiming obvious falsehood is no virtue.
You seem to have no understanding of Ephesians 1:4.
If God had transferred foreseen individuals without regard to their foreseen faith into Christ's spiritual body before God created them, why did Christ need to live a sinless life, then suffer and die on the cross?
I have posted many times scripture absolutely precludes that bogus interpretation, recall once not a people, once had not received mercy, once was not beloved?
Time to deal with reality.
For the umpteenth time, God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the downfall of humanity, because God arranged for the downfall, thus anticipated the downfall when He chose His Redeemer to redeem believers before the anticipated Fall. His Redemption plan was predetermined, again before the downfall of humanity, which again included both His Redeemer, and His target group of those to be redeemed, those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. Thus God chose "us" [the redeemed audience of Paul] corporately, when He chose Christ to be the Redeemer. You do not choose a Redeemer without also in effect choosing corporately those the Redeemer would redeem.
Ephesians 1:4 (Interpretive Translation)
just as He chose us corporately when He chose Him before the downfall of humanity, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, God the Father.
Other interpretations are precluded by scripture.
Ephesians 1:4 (Interpretive Translation)
just as He chose us corporately when He chose Him before the downfall of humanity, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, God the Father.
Other interpretations are precluded by scripture.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats part of the Mystery of the Gospel, that jew/Gentile were the chosen beloved of God, so chosen Gentiles were always beloved of God due to their eternal union with Christ. Rom 9 25-26 means as far as what was known at that time, Gentiles were not Gods People , strangers Eph 2 but secretly in the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ, they were Gods beloved People as well as some jews, but I know this is way over your head to comprehend.
Again, you ignore the FACT scripture says they once were NOT beloved. To claim this or that statement of scripture is not true because it reflects a mistaken view is a tool that could nullify all of scripture. Put it down.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes, why you believe the Bible is inerrant, so long as it can say wrong things.
A corollary is: How many verses must be nullified before the one verse thought to hold the conflicting view should be reevaluated.
Consider when individuals are individually chosen for salvation.
Viewpoint one: Before creation per Ephesians 1:4
Viewpoint two: During our lifetime after our faith is credited as righteousness.
Number of verses supporting Viewpoint One: One
Number of Verses supporting Viewpoint Two: Numerous
1) We were chosen when we were poor to the world, or in the opinion of humanity. Thus after creation.
2) We were chosen to shame the wise and strong things of the world. Thus after creation.
3) We were chosen through faith in the truth, thus after we had heard and learned God's word. Thus after creation
4) Once we were not a people, thus after we were created, then we were chosen as God's people.
5) Once we had not received mercy, thus after we were created, then we received mercy.
6) Once we were not beloved, thus after we were created, then we become beloved children of God.
7) We were chosen from or since the beginning, not before the beginning of creation.
8) Names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, and presumably others written, from or since creation.
But how do you get around Ephesians 1:4?
God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the downfall of humanity, because God arranged for the downfall, thus anticipated the downfall when He chose His Redeemer to redeem believers before the anticipated Fall. His Redemption plan was predetermined, again before the downfall of humanity, which again included both His Redeemer, and His target group of those to be redeemed, those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. Thus God chose "us" [the redeemed audience of Paul] corporately, when He chose Christ to be the Redeemer. You do not choose a Redeemer without also in effect choosing corporately those the Redeemer would redeem.
Ephesians 1:4 (Interpretive Translation)
just as He chose us corporately when He chose Him before the downfall of humanity, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, God the Father.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
So, you see “beloved” as a noun (The Beloved) rather than a verb?… beloved by God?
Can’t they refer to the same people? Those He loved before they loved Him (1 John 4) are, in fact, “the beloved” of God.
Doesn’t that make sense?
Again back to Romans. Doesn’t Romans 8 speak to this very issue?
peace to you
When discussion turns from topic to trampling God's witnesses, not much mystery needs to be revealed.
Consider when individuals are individually chosen for salvation.
Viewpoint one: Before creation per Ephesians 1:4
Viewpoint two: During our lifetime after our faith is credited as righteousness.
Number of verses supporting Viewpoint One: One
Number of Verses supporting Viewpoint Two: Numerous
1) We were chosen when we were poor to the world, or in the opinion of humanity. Thus after creation.
2) We were chosen to shame the wise and strong things of the world. Thus after creation.
3) We were chosen through faith in the truth, thus after we had heard and learned God's word. Thus after creation
4) Once we were not a people, thus after we were created, then we were chosen as God's people.
5) Once we had not received mercy, thus after we were created, then we received mercy.
6) Once we were not beloved, thus after we were created, then we become beloved children of God.
7) We were chosen from or since the beginning, not before the beginning of creation.
8) Names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, and presumably others written, from or since creation.
But how do you get around Ephesians 1:4?
God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the downfall of humanity, because God arranged for the downfall, thus anticipated the downfall when He chose His Redeemer to redeem believers before the anticipated Fall. His Redemption plan was predetermined, again before the downfall of humanity, which again included both His Redeemer, and His target group of those to be redeemed, those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. Thus God chose "us" [the redeemed audience of Paul] corporately, when He chose Christ to be the Redeemer. You do not choose a Redeemer without also in effect choosing corporately those the Redeemer would redeem.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yet another You, You, You post devoid of useful commentary on the topic.
Consider when individuals are individually chosen for salvation.
Viewpoint one: Before creation per Ephesians 1:4
Viewpoint two: During our lifetime after our faith is credited as righteousness.
Number of verses supporting Viewpoint One: One
Number of Verses supporting Viewpoint Two: Numerous
1) We were chosen when we were poor to the world, or in the opinion of humanity. Thus after creation. James 2:5
2) We were chosen to shame the wise and strong things of the world. Thus after creation. 1 Corinthians 1:27
3) We were chosen through faith in the truth, thus after we had heard and learned God's word. Thus after creation 2 Thessalonians 2:13
4) Once we were not a people, thus after we were created, then we were chosen as God's people. 1 Peter 2:9-10
5) Once we had not received mercy, thus after we were created, then we received mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10
6) Once we were not beloved, thus after we were created, then we become beloved children of God. Romans 9:25
7) We were chosen from or since the beginning, not before the beginning of creation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
8) Names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, and presumably others written, from or since creation. Revelation 17:8
But how do you get around Ephesians 1:4?
God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the downfall of humanity, because God arranged for the downfall, thus anticipated the downfall when He chose His Redeemer to redeem believers before the anticipated Fall. His Redemption plan was predetermined, again before the downfall of humanity, which again included both His Redeemer, and His target group of those to be redeemed, those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. Thus God chose "us" [the redeemed audience of Paul] corporately, when He chose Christ to be the Redeemer. You do not choose a Redeemer without also in effect choosing corporately those the Redeemer would redeem.
What would a careful Bible Student do? Nullify a half dozen or more verses rather than revise their understanding of one verse?
Under the New Covenant we become "Beloved" when we join God's family as born anew children of God. This occurs after we were NOT beloved, and were children of wrath, and had not received mercy and were NOT God's chosen people.
We have to wonder at the power of presupposition to blind us from what screams from the page. So far we seem unable to even discuss the issue of when did we become "Beloved."
Under the New Covenant we become "Beloved" when we join God's family as born anew children of God. This occurs after we were NOT beloved, and were children of wrath, and had not received mercy and were NOT God's chosen people.
We have to wonder at the power of presupposition to blind us from what screams from the page. So far we seem unable to even discuss the issue of when did we become "Beloved."
In "beloved by God" I do see it as a noun.
Yes, they can refer to the same people. I just view (for example) "the loved" as a collective group and "being loved by God" as applying individually to the people within that group.
I think the context determines whether we are speaking of a group or an action by God.
But these are the same people. The loved are those loved by God.
I think the main difference here, and @Van 's point, is the reason.
We have two choices. God loved specific individuals and chose to place them in the Beloved OR God loves those who are in the Beloved.
I lean towards the latter. For one, it is Christ centered. I grant the former position is centered on the Father. But the latter (that we are loved because of our position in Christ) maintains a view I believe is consistent with Scripture.
I do not think that either view can be dismissed due to grammer. Both are the result of how Scripture as a whole is read and understood.
In the end both arrive at the same place (God loves the beloved). But they are very different views.