When do we become "Beloved?"

[Dave G]

I see lots of verbiage but did you explain how someone individually chosen in Him would not be beloved?

Yes, I did.
But it seems to me that you just weren't following along.

Van,
The Gentile elect were always beloved in the eternal sense, but not always beloved in the earthly, "national" sense as Israel is.
That is what the many words of God have to say on the subject.

 

[canadyjd]

In "beloved by God" I do see it as a noun.

Yes, they can refer to the same people. I just view (for example) "the loved" as a collective group and "being loved by God" as applying individually to the people within that group.

I think the context determines whether we are speaking of a group or an action by God.

But these are the same people. The loved are those loved by God.

I think the main difference here, and @Van 's point, is the reason.

We have two choices. God loved specific individuals and chose to place them in the Beloved OR God loves those who are in the Beloved.

I lean towards the latter. For one, it is Christ centered. I grant the former position is centered on the Father. But the latter (that we are loved because of our position in Christ) maintains a view I believe is consistent with Scripture.

I do not think that either view can be dismissed due to grammer. Both are the result of how Scripture as a whole is read and understood.

In the end both arrive at the same place (God loves the beloved). But they are very different views.

You are correct in this respect.

1. In the view that you hold, God waits to see who will believe the gospel and choses them to be the “beloved” based on what they did. IOW, God responds to what man does in choosing them to be beloved.

2. In my reformed view, God choses those He has loved from before the foundation of the world to be His beloved, and then brings them into a right relationship with Himself through the power of God Holy Spirit. IOW, the beloved responds to what God does. We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us.

I can reconcile my reformed views with the passages from Romans and 1 John, but I have seen those that advocate the opposite position attempt to address the passage from 1 John 4.

Scripture meet cleaver, as a poster so articulately stated above.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

You are correct in this respect.

1. In the view that you hold, God waits to see who will believe the gospel and choses them to be the “beloved” based on what they did. IOW, God responds to what man does in choosing them to be beloved.

2. In my reformed view, God choses those He has loved from before the foundation of the world to be His beloved, and then brings them into a right relationship with Himself through the power of God Holy Spirit. IOW, the beloved responds to what God does. We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us.

I can reconcile my reformed views with the passages from Romans and 1 John, but I have seen those that advocate the opposite position attempt to address the passage from 1 John 4.

Scripture meet cleaver, as a poster so articulately stated above.

peace to you

In regard to #1, you make a serious mistake when you assign to me (and as a principle, to others) ideas foreign to what I stated in order to formulate an argument.

The reason it is a mistake is your argument falls flat. The logic is intact, however it addresses a "strawman" and therefore achieves a hollow ficticious "victory" against nobody and serves only to puff up emotional pride.

For reference, here are the flaws in your opposition:

1. I never stated or believed that "God waits to see who will believe the gospel and choses them".

2. I never based God's love towards the beloved on what they did.

3. Contrary to that second point, I based God's love towards the beloved as being Christ. We did not redeem ourselves.

4. You assume that I believe a mischaracterization that, as far as I know, no Christian actually believes (Calvinists often use the argument to avoid legitimate discussions).

5. You either ignore that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world or assune that I ignore those passages.


You, instead, erroneously attributed those beliefs to me and then presented an argument against them as if they were actually related to my post/ belief. Your post (even if merely ignorance and assumption) it is extraordinary dishonest to see on a Christian board.

I think you an honest person and am sure it nothing but a careless mistake. But it is a reminder that we must be careful when dealing with another person's views. You need to first grasp an opposing position before you are equipped to pose an argument against, or a critique of, that view.

If you would like to honestly discuss my view (or your view with me) then I would gladly participate. However I have no interest in entering a dishonest debate with anybody on this board.

 

[canadyjd]

In regard to #1, you make a serious mistake when you assign to me (and as a principle, to others) ideas foreign to what I stated in order to formulate an argument.

The reason it is a mistake is your argument falls flat. The logic is intact, however it addresses a "strawman" and therefore achieves a hollow ficticious "victory" against nobody and serves only to puff up emotional pride.

For reference, here are the flaws in your opposition:

1. I never stated or believed that "God waits to see who will believe the gospel and choses them".

2. I never based God's love towards the beloved on what they did.

3. Contrary to that second point, I based God's love towards the beloved as being Christ. We did not redeem ourselves.

4. You assume that I believe a mischaracterization that, as far as I know, no Christian actually believes (Calvinists often use the argument to avoid legitimate discussions).

5. You either ignore that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world or assune that I ignore those passages.


You, instead, erroneously attributed those beliefs to me and then presented an argument against them as if they were actually related to my post/ belief. Your post (even if merely ignorance and assumption) it is extraordinary dishonest to see on a Christian board.

I think you an honest person and am sure it nothing but a careless mistake. But it is a reminder that we must be careful when dealing with another person's views. You need to first grasp an opposing position before you are equipped to pose an argument against, or a critique of, that view.

If you would like to honestly discuss my view (or your view with me) then I would gladly participate. However I have no interest in entering a dishonest debate with anybody on this board.

The poster has repeatedly stated we are “placed in Christ” after we believe and then are the beloved. Didn’t you agree with this statement?

Have I misunderstood the argument?

Do you believe we are “the beloved” prior to being placed in Christ? That is not what is being said in the OP and yet you are making all kinds of accusations about me and my motives.

You know, JonC, now I remember why I rarely respond to you. You can make very good points, at times, but you are simply contrary, straining at gnats and all that.

I will bow out

peace to you

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another You, You, You post devoid of useful commentary on the topic.

Consider when individuals are individually chosen for salvation.

Viewpoint one: Before creation per Ephesians 1:4

Viewpoint two: During our lifetime after our faith is credited as righteousness.

Number of verses supporting Viewpoint One: One

Number of Verses supporting Viewpoint Two: Numerous

1) We were chosen when we were poor to the world, or in the opinion of humanity. Thus after creation. James 2:5

2) We were chosen to shame the wise and strong things of the world. Thus after creation. 1 Corinthians 1:27

3) We were chosen through faith in the truth, thus after we had heard and learned God's word. Thus after creation 2 Thessalonians 2:13

4) Once we were not a people, thus after we were created, then we were chosen as God's people. 1 Peter 2:9-10

5) Once we had not received mercy, thus after we were created, then we received mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

6) Once we were not beloved, thus after we were created, then we become beloved children of God. Romans 9:25

7) We were chosen from or since the beginning, not before the beginning of creation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

8) Names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, and presumably others written, from or since creation. Revelation 17:8

But how do you get around Ephesians 1:4?

God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the downfall of humanity, because God arranged for the downfall, thus anticipated the downfall when He chose His Redeemer to redeem believers before the anticipated Fall. His Redemption plan was predetermined, again before the downfall of humanity, which again included both His Redeemer, and His target group of those to be redeemed, those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. Thus God chose "us" [the redeemed audience of Paul] corporately, when He chose Christ to be the Redeemer. You do not choose a Redeemer without also in effect choosing corporately those the Redeemer would redeem.

The same gentiles that were under the old covenant and historically without God and Christ as Per Eph 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Nevertheless they were secretly before the foundation of the world, Loved and Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us[all believers of jews/gentiles] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So Rom 9:25-26 is how it was historically with the gentiles, but eternally they elect ones were always beloved in the beloved.

 

[JonC]

The poster has repeatedly stated we are “placed in Christ” after we believe and then are the beloved. Didn’t you agree with this statement?

Have I misunderstood the argument?

Do you believe we are “the beloved” prior to being placed in Christ? That is not what is being said in the OP and yet you are making all kinds of accusations about me and my motives.

You know, JonC, now I remember why I rarely respond to you. You can make very good points, at times, but you are simply contrary, straining at gnats and all that.

I will bow out

peace to you

Yes, you misunderstood my position.

The problem is that you view opposing views as the strawman position you created and any legitimate differences as minor, contradictory, or "straining at gnats". You will not be able to offer an honest argument or defence of your own position until you are able or willing to grasp opposing views.

The second problem is that when faced with the fact my beliefs do not align with your mischaracterization of my beliefs you choose to "bow out" rather than engage in an honest conversation.

In your post to me you addressed me, not the OP. I do not speak for the OP (I can only speak for my own beliefs).

Do I believe we are "the beloved" prior to being placed in Christ? No, of course not. But I do believe we were beloved of God from the foundation of the World based on Christ who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

The same gentiles that were under the old covenant and historically without God and Christ as Per Eph 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Nevertheless they were secretly before the foundation of the world, Loved and Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us[all believers of jews/gentiles] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So Rom 9:25-26 is how it was historically with the gentiles, but eternally they elect ones were always beloved in the beloved.

Sir, you are not making sense:
1) The Gentile were called Uncircumcision to indicate they were not under the Old Covenant but outside of the Old Covenant, they were not God's people, had not received mercy and were not among the "beloved." A few proselytes did come under the Old Covenant, as exceptions.

2) Please stop saying those God said were once not Beloved, were always beloved. The verses do not say once people thought you were not beloved by God, but God always considered you beloved. That is taking a cleaver to God's word to fit your unbiblical view.

 

[Van]

Yes, I did.
But it seems to me that you just weren't following along.

Van,
The Gentile elect were always beloved in the eternal sense, but not always beloved in the earthly, "national" sense as Israel is.
That is what the many words of God have to say on the subject.

Please stop saying those God said were once not Beloved, were always beloved. The verses do not say once people thought you were not beloved by God, but God always considered you beloved. That is taking a cleaver to God's word to fit your unbiblical view.

 

[JonC]

@canadyjd ,

To try and make our conversation legitimate:

What do you believe to be the basis for God's love towards us? How does God love us?

 

[Brightfame52]

[QUOTE="Van, post: 2890367, member: 10696"]Sir, you are not making sense:
1) The Gentile were called Uncircumcision to indicate they were not under the Old Covenant but outside of the Old Covenant, they were not God's people, had not received mercy and were not among the "beloved." A few proselytes did come under the Old Covenant, as exceptions.

2) Please stop saying those God said were once not Beloved, were always beloved. The verses do not say once people thought you were not beloved by God, but God always considered you beloved. That is taking a cleaver to God's word to fit your unbiblical view.[/QUOTE]
Its a mystery to you

 

[Van]

[QUOTE="Van, post: 2890367, member: 10696"]Sir, you are not making sense:
1) The Gentile were called Uncircumcision to indicate they were not under the Old Covenant but outside of the Old Covenant, they were not God's people, had not received mercy and were not among the "beloved." A few proselytes did come under the Old Covenant, as exceptions.

2) Please stop saying those God said were once not Beloved, were always beloved. The verses do not say once people thought you were not beloved by God, but God always considered you beloved. That is taking a cleaver to God's word to fit your unbiblical view.

Its a mystery to you[/QUOTE]

The mystery is that someone would continue to deny truth. Recall the saying, when you are in a hole, stop digging?

 

[Brightfame52]

Its a mystery to you

The mystery is that someone would continue to deny truth. Recall the saying, when you are in a hole, stop digging?[/QUOTE]
See those who are now manifested as beloved of God, jew or gentile believers in Christ like Rom 1:7


To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They were always beloved of God in Christ before the world began, beloved from the beginning 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Thessalonica is a Church established among the Gentiles

 

[Van]

See those who are now manifested as beloved of God, jew or gentile believers in Christ like Rom 1:7

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They were always beloved of God in Christ before the world began, beloved from the beginning 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Thessalonica is a Church established among the Gentiles

On and on, one fiction after another is hurled forth to fog the temple of truth.

1) Does the Greek grammar of Romans 1:7 support the idea that those in Roman had been beloved, and then were called to be set apart. Nope. The claim is pure fiction, fabricated to support another fiction. When does the grammar say those in Rome became Beloved? It doesn't. It says they "are" beloved, thus a characteristic existing in the present. Next is "called" a verb indicating an action causing them to become saints? Is "to be" in the text? Nope. The claim is pure fiction, fabricated to support another fiction. What is actually said is those who are beloved are called (adjective) saints, thus a description of the beloved.

2) Next the completely ludicrous assertion is made, one again, that "since the beginning" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refers to before the beginning of creation. The claim is pure fiction, fabricated to support another fiction. Why were they chosen (and relocated to be "in Christ)? For salvation! When did this "relocation" begin. Before Christ died on the cross of afterwards? Afterwards. No one was washed with His blood, made perfect, before He died, that is why the OT Saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died!

3) Why are so many posters apparently blind to truth, the obvious as presented in scripture? Once we accept mythology as truth, we reject Truth as mythology.

 

[Brightfame52]

On and on, one fiction after another is hurled forth to fog the temple of truth.

1) Does the Greek grammar of Romans 1:7 support the idea that those in Roman had been beloved, and then were called to be set apart. Nope. The claim is pure fiction, fabricated to support another fiction. When does the grammar say those in Rome became Beloved? It doesn't. It says they "are" beloved, thus a characteristic existing in the present. Next is "called" a verb indicating an action causing them to become saints? Is "to be" in the text? Nope. The claim is pure fiction, fabricated to support another fiction. What is actually said is those who are beloved are called (adjective) saints, thus a description of the beloved.

2) Next the completely ludicrous assertion is made, one again, that "since the beginning" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refers to before the beginning of creation. The claim is pure fiction, fabricated to support another fiction. Why were they chosen (and relocated to be "in Christ)? For salvation! When did this "relocation" begin. Before Christ died on the cross of afterwards? Afterwards. No one was washed with His blood, made perfect, before He died, that is why the OT Saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died!

3) Why are so many posters apparently blind to truth, the obvious as presented in scripture? Once we accept mythology as truth, we reject Truth as mythology.

There was never a time Gods Beloved People were not Beloved by Him, Its right there before your eyes and you cant see it 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They were beloved before they were called by the Gospel

And yes from the beginning is a reference for before the creation Prov 8:23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

 

[Van]

There was never a time Gods Beloved People were not Beloved by Him, Its right there before your eyes and you cant see it 2 Thess 2:13-14

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The word translated "from" means "since" when used to designate time sequence. Once again you have proclaimed obvious falsehood to support your mythology, found nowhere in scripture.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen individuals for salvation, meaning they had not been chosen anytime before, from the begin, meaning since the inauguration of the New Covenant. To be chosen through or by means of "faith in the truth" means the individual had faith in the truth when chosen. Their faith was utilized in some manner. Scripture indicates that if the person's faith was credited by God as righteousness, the person benefits. To suppose a person is saved through uncredited faith is ludicrous.

Consider the claim since God knows everything imaginable, God chose foreseen individuals, with foreseen faith, foreseen to have been credits by God as righteousness, that came about through foreseen witnesses.

 

[Brightfame52]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen individuals for salvation, meaning they had not been chosen anytime before, from the begin, meaning since the inauguration of the New Covenant. To be chosen through or by means of "faith in the truth" means the individual had faith in the truth when chosen. Their faith was utilized in some manner. Scripture indicates that if the person's faith was credited by God as righteousness, the person benefits. To suppose a person is saved through uncredited faith is ludicrous.

Consider the claim since God knows everything imaginable, God chose foreseen individuals, with foreseen faith, foreseen to have been credits by God as righteousness, that came about through foreseen witnesses.

Lol, You been shown the scripture truth but cant receive it.

 

[Van]

Lol, You been shown the scripture truth but cant receive it.

Yet another false claim, offering a fallacious argument against the person, rather than addressing the topic.

Repeating the topic of discussion:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen individuals for salvation, meaning they had not been chosen anytime before, from the begin, meaning since the inauguration of the New Covenant. To be chosen through or by means of "faith in the truth" means the individual had faith in the truth when chosen. Their faith was utilized in some manner. Scripture indicates that if the person's faith was credited by God as righteousness, the person benefits. To suppose a person is saved through uncredited faith is ludicrous.

Consider the claim since God knows everything imaginable, God chose foreseen individuals, with foreseen faith, foreseen to have been credits by God as righteousness, that came about through foreseen witnesses.

As far as "from the beginning" meaning before the beginning, that is simply a ludicrous falsehood, redefining the meaning of since or after to mean before. The word translated "from" means "since" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as it designates time sequence.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another false claim, offering a fallacious argument against the person, rather than addressing the topic.

Repeating the topic of discussion:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen individuals for salvation, meaning they had not been chosen anytime before, from the begin, meaning since the inauguration of the New Covenant. To be chosen through or by means of "faith in the truth" means the individual had faith in the truth when chosen. Their faith was utilized in some manner. Scripture indicates that if the person's faith was credited by God as righteousness, the person benefits. To suppose a person is saved through uncredited faith is ludicrous.

Consider the claim since God knows everything imaginable, God chose foreseen individuals, with foreseen faith, foreseen to have been credits by God as righteousness, that came about through foreseen witnesses.

As far as "from the beginning" meaning before the beginning, that is simply a ludicrous falsehood, redefining the meaning of since or after to mean before. The word translated "from" means "since" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as it designates time sequence.

The Truth is right in your face and you deny it, twist it 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen individuals for salvation, meaning they had not been chosen anytime before, from the begin, meaning since the inauguration of the New Covenant. To be chosen through or by means of "faith in the truth" means the individual had faith in the truth when chosen. Their faith was utilized in some manner. Scripture indicates that if the person's faith was credited by God as righteousness, the person benefits. To suppose a person is saved through uncredited faith is ludicrous.

Consider the claim since God knows everything imaginable, God chose foreseen individuals, with foreseen faith, foreseen to have been credits by God as righteousness, that came about through foreseen witnesses.

As far as "from the beginning" meaning before the beginning, that is simply a ludicrous falsehood, redefining the meaning of since or after to mean before. The word translated "from" means "since" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as it designates time.