When Does Life And Soul Begin?

Hello LeBuick.

I am going to go through this in steps.


A) My requests and correspondence with you were sincere. As such is always my nature! I will confront anyone, especially a Christian, acting in any other fashion or seemingly.


B) I started this thread, as noted, for two purposes.
1. Mainly I wanted to get a feel as when others' on this forum believe "life" and "soul" begins. Being very surprised at some of the responses by a few in the other thread, including yourself. I did not correspond with you much in that thread but agree with Marcia. Your responses were, or at a minimum "seemed", very contradictory and confused.
2. Thus I also wanted to continue and follow-up to your last two posts. Which were the last two posts in that thread, before its immediate closing. So I noted this thread would be "somewhat" a continuation of the other.


C) You raised some significant questions with the last posts, which I wanted to inquire about. You claimed your mother had an apparent abortion at 6 months, in the 60's. You noted there was no choice as it was "the child or the mother and the child". You then proclaimed "She lives to this day".
Yet earlier you claimed "I don't believe something can die before it is born. Living is a pre requisite to dying. Miscarriages, though unfortunate, is a life that never lived".
1. I took this as a terrible tragedy and loss of life, which came upon your family. I was sincere in giving heartfelt sympathy even though it was some 40 years past.
2. Your beliefs and comments were contradictory and why I contacted you. As I simply wanted to get a better understanding with your views.
3. You made no effort to clarify and apparently this was purposeful. Your clarification in this thread only comes in the form of a P.S. "ps... My sister lived, she's 41 with 3 kids. I used that story to say abortion may be man's contribution to God's work".
This is extremely poor in nature LeBuick. As people do go through such tragedies including still-born and miscarriages. Having close affiliation with several hospitals all my life, and knowing family and friends who experienced the former heartache.


D) I have no problem with discussing the Lord with anyone, sharing scripture or having scripture shared with me. I will always strive to grow in Christ.
Numerous times you and a few others were asked to give scripture. In order to back up what you were saying. Yet such was never submitted. All Christians should be weary in other's beliefs, especially when they do not offer God's word to back it up! Otherwise we can learn from each other.

Now I will respond to your posts in this thread. As you are trying to cast a bad light upon me.

 

What kind of statement is this LeBuick?!!
A) Again my follow up questions to your last two posts were sincere. I did not correspond with you such as Marcia did in the last thread.
B) Your views and positions are as Marcia said somewhat confusing. I simply wanted to clarify your last post, which raised some questions.
C) I sent you a PM asking you to view what I had posted. In hopes you would clarify as I respect such. If I didn't respect your view, I would have just written it off as somewhat nonsensical.
D) I "got you" once and you'll pray for me?????
This is poor LeBuick. As you are trying to pass me off as deceptive. I have been straight forward in everything I have said! As this is how I am.

I corrected you and/or asked for correction myself!!! You mistakenly claimed Mary's relative Elizabeth conceived divinely as Mary did. I simply corrected this as was the proper thing to do. If my correction was wrong, other's including yourself, could have clarified in the Bible. Sorry if you took offense to this. I made no deal over it as easily seen in this thread!

I will gladly take your prayers LeBuick! But your not praying for my hypocracy or deception.

I agree with this statement, except possibly the aborted living. Abortion is the killing of a baby but I will accept what can be shown me. However Marcia, myself, and surely others took great offense, as what you originally said was "...abortion may be man's contribution to God's work..."
This is radically different than saying "man is trying to be God when he invented ways to do abortions." This is not even close so of course people are going to react.

We also respect your views. No such does not make you evil or less saved. But being scripturaly correct is important otherwise it can create or lead to problems. Can you offer scripture for any of the following.
A) God only considers a life, a life at birth?
B) God does not consider a child growing in the womb to be a child or revered as such. He only considers it a child at birth.
C) God does not see the thing within the womb as living or alive.
D) God and even the people of the time place no value on conception. Or that conception is not the beginning of human life.
E) We know we have a soul but can you show where we only gain such at birth?

Do you not consider your stance contradictory to the Lord's?

LeBuick.
A) I never compare people to tree's or animals. As we are much greater than that according to God.
B) I do not see a seed of a tree as a tree. A seed cannot grow unless it receives proper nutrients and it can lay dormant for long periods. Once it begins to grow I do see it, as a growing tree!
C) The egg within the woman is not a human. It is simply an egg as sperm in a man is simply sperm. But once man and woman come together for that God given gift, and the sperm fertilizes the egg, then you have a growing human.


LeBuick I am simply trying to understand yours and others beliefs. But offer me scripture that we can discuss as what this forum is for. Have a good one. In Christ, Ralph

 

Hello Baptist in Richmond.

Some of this was covered in “Bush vetoes stem cell research”, so you may wish to visit that for others’ opinions. I would like to give my take on your post if you don't mind.

You don’t have to be against in-vitro fertilization on the grounds you laid out. The attempt is for couples who cannot conceive, to conceive and have a baby. The attempt for these couples is not to conceive life only to then purposefully destroy it. Even with natural conception, a fertilized egg or developing fetus will not always make it for various reasons. Maybe the couple is sadly prone to miscarriages etc. etc. But again their hopes and aspirations are to have children.

There are other, less expensive, methods of assisted conception or techniques. IVF is typically the last resort, with 5% of infertile couples resorting to such. The wife may have blocked, severely damaged, or no fallopian tubes at all. Or the issue could be with the husband.


The problem is developing the extra fertilized eggs and then having to destroy them. Simply because the one’s implanted were successful. In such a case many, including myself, are against this. As Joseph_Botwinick said, "Either implant them and leave it in God's hands, or don't do it at all". If it does not work the first time then try again, as such couples most likely are going to do anyhow!


Many other people do indeed object to the procedure all together but for other reasons. Birth defects, funds diverted from health care, business for profit, human commodity issue etc. etc.

Well the pill is supposed to stop the release of eggs all together. Thus none are ever capable of getting fertilized. It contains hormones which stop ovulation. With one pill type there is no period. The combination pill allows for a period but not a natural type as from release of egg. It is due to control of hormones by the combination pills. The pill also thickens the mucus around the cervix and effectively prevents sperm form entering the uterus. Thus again it offers protection of an egg if by chance one was released. Which is possible if someone is not taking the pill regularly or properly. http://www.seasonale.com/Video/Video.aspx

In addition to the above. There are naturally only about three weeks out of a given month in which a woman can get pregnant. At some point during this period an egg will be released. Which has a lifespan of about 24 hours! Sperm having a lifespan of about 72 hours. Thus even without contraceptives, everything has to fall into place. About a 20% chance of getting pregnant even if trying during this period.

As you noted the pill also makes it difficult for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus. I have not seen any statistics on the probability of this though. I would imagine it is quite a rare occurrence given someone taking the pill properly. If they are not taking the pill properly, I would think there is a greater chance of the egg attaching and thus pregnancy. Maybe one of the ladies can better clarify or a doctor.

Again however; even with couples trying to have children there is a good chance the fertilized egg may not attach anyhow. Especially in couples who may be older or may have some sort of physiological problem. Are we to judge them for continuing to try? No!

It is one thing to do everything you can to prevent pregnancy or fertilization of an egg. It is another to purposefully and knowingly destroy the life which has begun to grow.


Anyhow have a great one. Ralph:wavey:

 

Hello "mcdirector" and "Baptist in Richmond".:wavey:

Mcdirector, I believe your original stance to be correct and would consider all the following! Also, I may be wrong but think you may be misreading the statement by BIR? As he says maybe life and soul at attachment. Otherwise he could clarify for us.

I don't subscribe to his notion that, "life begins before fertilization" but it is an honorable one. I suppose some could possibly debate that with Jer.1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.” In this respect, it would be pretty superficial as such only means God knows all things, including the future. Is. 49.1 “Yahweh(God) called me when I was in the womb, before my birth he had pronounced my name.”

However, these versus and many others, do irrefutably say that God “forms” us in the “womb” and this is when he “knew” us. I would agree with BIR that sperm and an egg are alive BUT neither are a developing human. Of course when an egg is fertilized as in conception, then you have the beginning of a human life. Is an attached fertilized egg the beginning of it? No. We are who we are from conception, which is the beginning or our formation and noted throughout the Bible.




Gen. 4:1 “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived..”

Gen. 4:17 “Cain knew his wife, and she conceived..”

Gen. 16:4 “So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived..”

Gen. 21:2 “Sarah conceived….”

Gen 29:32 “So Leah conceived…”

Gen 29:33 “Then she conceived again..”

Ex. 2:2 “So the woman conceived..”

Num. 5:28 “..she shall be free and may conceive children..”

Judges 13:3 “..now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive..”

Judges 13:5 “For behold, you shall conceive…”

1 Chr. 7:23 “And when he went in to his wife, she conceived..”

Is. 7:14 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive..”

Luke 1:24 “Elizabeth conceived…”

Heb. 11:11 “By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed..”





Within 12-20 hours of conception the fertilized egg(zygote) begins dividing. It continues down the filopian tube towards the uterus continuing to divide. Within three days it has 16 cells and looks like a “mulberry”. Cell division continues as the embryo enters the cavity of the uterus. A blastocele forms in the center, the inner cells are the embryo and the outer cells make up the placenta.
It continues to develop over the next day or so and is looking for a place to attach. This is typically when an IVF embryo is inserted, as it corresponds with the natural development and path. Attachment usually occurs within a week or so from conception.
In another week or so: the heart, central nervous system, backbone, spinal column, kidneys, liver, and intestines etc begin developing. Within twenty days of conception, a week or two after attachment, most all the organs including the brain are active. http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml



Job 31:15 “Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

Psalm 139:13-16 “For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed……”



Take care, Ralph

 

Hello Baptist in Richmond and From The Right, Others!:wavey:

Baptist in Richmond your points are valid. But it only strengthens the reason mankind absolutely needs Christ. As with many issues we may never be able to make the absolute or a proper decision. Man is condemned to sin and we are but dirty rags in the Lords eye's for such.



Now let me re-address and offer some input.

A) When In vitro first came out or practical, I was much younger and purely against it. Simply on the grounds I felt it was man delving into life itself or playing God, so to say. Now I am somewhat more neutral on the issue, singularly.

As I understand it is the hopes and aspirations of a couple to have their own children. I am neutral in that I make no moral judgment on it or them. I am not in their shoes and only the Lord can judge such. I do know having children is a blessing and a gift from God and this is what they are striving for.

In contrast, without the invention of in vitro, many couples may have chosen to adopt children. Who otherwise may never have had the opportunity to be a part of a loving family. The Bible speaks of people whom the Lord made “barren” -or- who were naturally unable to have children, for whatever reason. We know in many instances the Lord cured them -or- some chose a concubine to bear children, for them. Something which still occurs to this day.

I still lean slightly against the practice but again do not judge those who seek it. It would be pretty petty on my behalf, with my many and unquestionable sins, to judge those whom the Lord possibly could see as endeavoring in something honorable. They are after all, striving to have Children!


B) What I am against with in vitro, as stated; Is the practice of fertilizing many eggs only to then use a few of the developing embryo's. They should only fertilize as many eggs as they will implant. If it does not work then try again. Otherwise don't do it at all. The destruction or selling of the “extra” embryos is wrong and needs to be corrected. I can only voice my opinion and elect officials whom I feel of moral fiber.


C) In respect to the effectiveness of in vitro fertilization. As I understand the greatest problem is often getting the egg to implant within the womb. Without such, there will be a failure and loss of developing embryo. However, and with my earlier point, this is of a natural occurrence.

Meaning, even with natural conception there is a chance the egg will not implant. There is the same risk that a in vitro egg will not implant. As I have read the percentages are pretty equal. Many times it is due to a problem the couple has and why some chose in vitro in first place. This is in regards to my earlier statement which was not directed at anyone.

If a couple is highly prone to miscarriages are they sinning by continuing to try, regardless if it is by natural or in vitro means? I do not believe so or at least not for me to judge. Even a healthy couple trying to get pregnant may conceive only not to have the egg attach. Thus it is quite possible many have actually conceived without knowing such.

I do not see failure with in vitro as killing or murder of the embryo. It is sad for the couple and I can only give heartfelt sympathy. Especially with couples who are prone to miscarriages as I have some friends who suffered from such. Your use of the word murder is to lose. Murder is a willful, destructive, and purposeful act. The failure or tragedy of the above is entirely different. Neither could be more diabolically opposed from within the heart.

In regards to birth control. Again, it is one thing to do everything you can to prevent pregnancy or fertilization of an egg. It is another to purposefully and knowingly destroy the life which has begun to grow.

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People who contend that life does not begin until attachment, or at brain activity, or at actual birth; simply allow, be it inadvertently, the justification of abortion beforehand. Such also allows the justification of emergency contraception. Which is a pill that destroys a developing embryo. It would be curious to know if they ever felt, someone who singularly and continuously uses emergency contraception to destroy an embryo, was ever doing wrong.



I do believe life begins at conception as God often refers to such in the Bible. Are we to be so ignorant or politically driven as to ignore the meaning of such as referenced throughout the Bible? This is just a pondering statement and not directed at any one person. In addition I also believe, as FTR, the evidence overwhelming supports life at conception.

Now here are some tougher questions than you posed and directly in regards to abortion. I hope this will not be taken wrongly by those who read this. Us Christians say we are against abortion, but with a few exceptions? Who is to say God does not see “all” abortion as wrong?

If it is the mother or baby, maybe the baby should survive as the mother has lived her life? God forbid if a young lady were raped and then became pregnant; but is this the developing child’s fault? It would be interesting to know if anyone has carried on with a pregnancy after such a tragedy and crime.

I am against abortion. I also feel in this day the mother/child predicament is not such a strong argument. As the medical field can handle just about every situation. Even with such the woman will undergo stress and/or trauma with the abortion. Therefore it seems to me an emergency “c” section could suffice in many instances. Thus saving the Child.

I am against abortion but I try not to judge those who have experience that tragedy. I can and will strive to have roe v. wade overturned but I may very well be sinning by allowing some exceptions. As surely I would especially in regards with the two above examples.

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We can only do our best and Jesus does know our hearts.

Y’all take care. God bless.:thumbsup: