When does the rapture occur?

that's interesting. Sad, but interesting.

Meanwhile, I keep trying to schedule the Rapture for ten minutes from now and the Lord keeps disagreeing.

ONE of these time's I'll be right!

 

I may have some time next week to check into it. Here is my take
on reading Matthew 24 IN LIGHT OF THE SCRIPTURE in
Matthew 24:3 . BTW, you will notice it teaches the
Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection/Change of the Saints.

--------------------------------------------------

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
-------------------------------------------------------

Note also that Matthew 24:4-14 are not
that the Rapture will be soon, the rapture has
always been soon.

 

Good outline, Ed. Good study, too.

 

:laugh: :laugh:

How to Derail a Thread in Four Easy Lessons:

Lesson #1: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Bro Tiny,

Is gonna cause the smiley police to investigate this thread. See they wont let me put a smiley up. Citizen's arrest! Citizen's arrest!!!!!!!!!!

Bro Tony

BTW- USMC good post

 

The rapture will occur after the last of God's elect are born and hear and respond to the Gospel. He will not come until then. He is not willing that one of them would perish.

 

Well gooooollllllly!


"No smileys, good you can go on in."

 

Amen, Brother USMC71 -- You are so RIGHT ON!:thumbs:

 

And he doesn't even have a baseball bat!! :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Speak loud and carry a small stick, Glory!!

 

USMC71's outline is outstanding, and I strongly agree with all of it. However, many who reject the Pre-trib Rapture also reject dispensationalism and say that God's promises to Israel in the Old Testament were conditional and will never be fulfilled since Israel rejected Jesus at HIs first coming.

 

I am in rapture every time I hear Handel's Messiah!

Mind you, it doesn't compare to what I expect the Lord's second coming will be like.

Cheers,

Jim

 

mmmmm You know, there are tidbits of profoundness on this thread . . .

 

I would be in rapture if I could play Handel's Messiah.

 

I guess I am one that is already in rapture then, :love2: for I can play Handel's "The Messiah".
>
>
>
>
>
> On the radio; on the computer; on a DVD; on a tape: on... :thumbsup: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

I'm Rapture Ready also.

 

I don't believe in the pre trib rapture

I am certainly no expert, But after being introduced to the Pre trib position as a new christian When I began to read the scripture for myself, I came across way too many verses that just didnt line up with the doctrine. One big issue I have with it is you almost always have to have explained to you extant from the scripture to formulate the idea of it, and then the bits and pieces that "support" it are used.
I will put it to you like a friend of mine put it to a pastor recently." I want to believe it, PLease convince me from scripture its true. "

As for USMC71's post, I will address portions of it, but I don't feel like hitting every single issue.

But a few I wish to address are, the early church believed it, They also believed some other rather peculiar doctrines as well should we follow those too?
Imminency, We are only aware of certain things occuring in the world around us, even with cnn, And I am only 31, and time passes incredibly fast for me already, other than children, or people unconcerned, I feel an imminent desire to attempt to reach as many as possible before the scripture is fufilled.
1 thess 4:18 is speaking of those that are saddened by the deaths of loved ones, its stretching it to say otherwise.
Titus 2:13 I will simply state we are not to rely on our own understanding.
1st John 3:2-3 there is a lot more to this chapter than you imply
the church is told ALL scripture is profitable for instruction.
Wrath and tribulation are 2 seperate things
Romans 5:9; 1st Thessalonians 1:9-10 See above
Psa 91 seems to fit many of the rapture references, along with the fact that the hebrews were IN egypt when Gods wrath was poured upon it, but they were not touched, they walked through the red sea, not raptured out of it, noah was in the flood, but protected from it. Daniel was in both the lions den, as well as a furnace so hot the men could not approach it, yet he was not touched.

1. The "falling away" in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church. Apostacy, is derived from divorce, not close to rapture unless you are trying to shoehorn a meaning.

What about vs 2 where it sounds like he is speaking to those who think christ might have already come? And then he provides evidence leading up to the man of sinbeing revaled first?

22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Revelation 6:10)
This is a puzzling statement considering most rapture proponents state that those raptured wont face harm, particurlarly death or persecution, Could you elaborate a bit more on what you believe on it?

23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truly literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.
Debatable
24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming Any scripture to back this up?

29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Matthew 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
I am not aware of any natural bodies that can currently live for the duration of the millineum

30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.
31. The Judgment of Israel (Ezekiel 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.
This is a different view than most pre tribbers I have seen care to elaborate further as it is intriguing.

Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church. I am not aware of any passage that mentions the church in the ot period
Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience. see above, the great tribulation refers to the wrath of god, ie Judgements.
Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church. Tribulation is not wrath and there are plenty of verses stating we will suffer tribulation

In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11. Thats relying on your own understanding, We see in part we know in part,

There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation. Scriptural evidence for a differentiation?

The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory. I think all the popular views are wrong to some extent I think it is as prideful of us as "modern" to think we are somehow more knoledgeable than the pharacees and scribes were . I maintain that apart from the scriptures as our guide we are just as blind as they were.

So much for just hitting the high points,
I would like to see a more detailed explanation of the view of events youve presented if you have one, as like I said , I am not opposed to being "raptured" BUT I just dont currently see it lining up with the scripture.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

Chris777: //1. The "falling away" in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 would better
be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference
to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
Apostacy, is derived from divorce, not close to rapture unless
you are trying to shoehorn a meaning.//

I agree: 'the departure of the Holy Spirit'.
In addition, I used 2 Thess 2:1 to do all my
serious SHOEHORNning

--------------------------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
--------------------------------------

 

The rapture occurs when the resurrection of the righteous dead occurs. So when does the resurrection of the righteous dead occur? (Jn 6:54)Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The resurrection, rapture, judgement of believers and unbelievers will without a doubt take place on the last day. I have asked pretribers over and over to produce one verse or one passage that deals with more than one judgement and I have yet to see one produced thats because there isn't one. The pretribulation rapture as well as the dispensational doctrine is a fairy tale for grown ups. Oh and about the rapture in Mt 24 the pretribs usually always say that it is referring to Israel but look at it closely its the same Lord in the same clouds with the same trump and the same shout it is the same rapture mentioned in 1 Thess 4. The rapture mentioned in 1 Thess 4, 1Cor 15, and Mt 24 is the same rapture. If the rapture in Mt 24 is Israel and it comes after the rapture in 1Cor 15 how could there be another trumpet sounded? It is very plain that the trumpet in 1 Cor 15 is the last trump. How could there be another trump after the last trump wouldn't that be a contradiction? Of course it would. There is only one rapture and it takes place on the last day.