When does this judgment begin?

[Darrell C]

So as to not repeat what was already clearly stated:

When does this judgment begin?

Not sure how a quotation of a verse denies my view. Will not Christ judge the living and the dead when He returns? WIll He not judge the dead at the Great White Throne?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You must not have read the previous verse in context with vs7:

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The judgment spoken of takes place before any return of Jesus.

It is actually an announcement of HIs Return, and when we consider that when He returns He will render judgment it seems pretty clear. There is an initial judgment as well as the Sheep and Goat Judgment, not to be confused with the Great White Throne Judgment which takes place 1,000 years and 75 days after Christ's Return.

Revelation 14:6-7 doesn't say anything about Christ's return.

I would agree for the most part but the fact is that the Tribulation is the Judgment of God on this world, and it culminates in the Return of Christ.

It speaks about the "everlasting gospel" going into all the world, while the "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments, "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" (vs 7; Exodus 20:11), "keep the commandments of God" (vs 12), takes place during that time, since it states, "the hour of his judgment is come" (during the preachment), not will come after the everlasting gospel closes.

First, where exactly do you get that "the "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments" is a distinct judgment for that time? Show me exactly where "the Ten Commandments" are found in Revelation. Who exactly is this judgment exacted on? Jews? Gentiles? Both? In view is physical judgment on the earth, that again...culminates with the Reurn of Christ and the Sheep and Goat judgment.

Secondly, why would you displace Christ's Return from the events of the Tribulation?

Third, we see reference to the Great White Throne...


Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


...and the events of the Tribulation spoken of. They will take the mark during the Tribulation but the judgment does not fall until after the Millennial Kingdom. This is eternal judgment, whereas the judgment of the Tribulation is primarily temporal, though for the lost having eternal consequences.

What verses are you reading?

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice, that the "everlasting gospel" is still going forward, while "judgment" takes place concerning God's Law (Commandments), and then comes "wrath" (afterward) for those who reject God's offer in Christ Jesus, who refuse to come into obedience to the foundation of His government.

Kind of a moot point to speak of the "everlasting" Gospel still going forward, isn't it? The Gospel will be preached throughout the Tribulation and in the Millennial Kingdom as well.

Secondly, all judgment centers on the revealed will of God, and it is to that which is refferred to, not the "Ten Commandments." One particular commandment that will be a focus in regards to the judgment within the Tribulation is the commandment to obey the Gospel. Those mentioned in v.12 are not Saints because they keep the commandments of God, they keep the commandments of God because they are Saints.

Third...the entire Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on those who refused to obey the Gospel, not that they didn't "refuse to come into obedience to the foundation of His government." His "government" will not be set up in the Tribulation.

Fourth, you entirely overlook the fact that vv.10-12 refer to the Great White Throne Judgment.

It even mentions the "beast" and "his image", all of which takes place before Jesus' return.

So when does this...

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

...apply?

To the Tribulation, or to the Sheep and Goat Judgment, or to the Great White Throne?

What book, chapter and verse are you reading?

Revelation 14.

The Return of Christ is the crowning feature of the Tribulation. All judgment leads to this. It seems you are trying to create a "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments" which is not in the text, thus you must make Christ's Return somehow exclusive from the Tribulation.

I have one question: is the Tribulation still going on when Christ Returns?


Revelation 19:11-21 King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


So it's a little hard to displace this event from the judgment spoken of in ch.14.


God bless.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Not sure how a quotation of a verse denies my view. ...

Not sure how this response was not clearly demonstrating the point that your view is in error:

So as to not repeat what was already clearly stated:

When does this judgment begin?

 

[Alofa Atu]

I would agree for the most part but the fact is that the Tribulation is the Judgment of God ...

Not what I said (anywhere), and not what Revelation 14:6-7 said. The judgment spoken of in vs 7 is for the professing, not the not-professing.

 

[Alofa Atu]

and it culminates in the Return of Christ.

Revelation 14:6-7 isn't about the Second Coming (event), but about the Everlasting Gospel and the judgment that takes place during that alotted time, not after the mystery of God (Gospel) is finished (Revelation 10:7).

 

[Alofa Atu]

First, where exactly do you get that "the "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments" is a distinct judgment for that time? Show me exactly where "the Ten Commandments" are found in Revelation.

I did that already, but you refuse to see, as it is written of you.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Fourth Commandment (Exodus 20:11) is directly being cited, by Revelation 14:7, the very heart of God's Law, and a simple reference in your Bible will even show that to you (if not, check almost any commentary or even the TSK (Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, see "worship")):

Exo. 20:11 "... the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is ..."

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice, the delineation between the person of God (the Father), saying, "the commandments of God", and the person of the Son, "the faith of Jesus".

The Commandments of God, as referred to in vs 7, are the Ten Commandments (cited specifically 3 times in the OT).

If afterward, you still cannot see, the fault lies with you, not Jesus Christ, who came to heal all of blindness.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Secondly, why would you displace Christ's Return from the events of the Tribulation?

Your numerical order is grossly misrepresenting and non-sequitur. Read the OP again.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Third, we see reference to the Great White Throne...

That is not found in vs 6-7. You keep trying to bring in other texts, which come after the events of vs 6-7. Simply read the word "followed". It means to come afterwards, behind, etc.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... The Gospel will be preached ... in the Millennial Kingdom as well.

Actually no. There are no more wicked of mankind alive during the 1,000 years and the mystery of God (Gospel) is "finished" (Revelation 10:7). They are all dead upon the earth, and the saints will all have been taken back to heaven with Jesus:

Addressed here in Video - Armageddon & 7 The Last Plagues & Millennium & New Heaven and New Earth

Here in Powerpoint - Armageddon & 7 The Last Plagues & Millennium & New Heaven and New Earth

 

[Alofa Atu]

The Gospel will be preached throughout the ... the Millennial Kingdom as well.

Addressed above and especially here:

The literal 1,000 years and the two reigns:

Here are the texts of Revelation 20:1-7 cited:

Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Please notice, that in these texts [Revelation 20:1-7], there is no where written that either Jesus, or the “saints” (or “satan” for that matter), shall “reign upon the earth” for 1,000 years, but simply says [vss. 4,6] that Jesus and the saints reigned “a thousand years”. The location of this 1,000 reign is nowhere stated to be “upon the earth” in these, or any passages of scripture [KJB]. Revelation 20:1 refers to Jesus coming “down” from Heaven but not touching the sin polluted earth, which connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in its “descend from Heaven”. Revelation 20:6 speaks of the “first resurrection”, which is connected to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, in its “the dead in Christ shall rise first” and “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”, which ties into John 14:1-4. One should very carefully look for themselves. It also is very clearly written that “satan” himself was not reigning during this “thousand years”, but is “bound” and “shut … up” with a “seal” placed “upon him”.

The phrase “the day of the Lord” [Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Lamentations 2:22; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7,8,14,18, 2:2,3; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10], is a direct reference to the “thousand years” [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7, see also Isaiah 24:22, “many days”], which is the final “day”, the 7th day – the great Sabbath, of the great week “with the Lord” [2 Peter 3:8].

The second Advent of Jesus Christ, wherein the “saints” are “caught up together … in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:1-6] is but the beginning of the “thousand years” or “the day of the Lord”, while the third Advent of Jesus Christ [Zechariah 14:1-21; Revelation 20:7-10] is the ending of the “thousand years” or “the day of the Lord”, after which the finally impenitent shall be utterly destroyed in the second death, and finally the “New Heavens” and the “New Earth” are recreated [Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1] which the “meek shall inherit”.

Revelation 19-22, is parallel to Isaiah 24, and so also connected to Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32.

Armageddon, the gathering to war against the Lamb (and his body)

The Day of the LORD, the final thousand years, beginning, middle and ending​

Final Destruction of the Wicked​

Heavens & Earth Made New, saints reign upon the earth made new, forever​

Psalms 37

Psalms 37:14,12,35

Psalms 37:13​

Psalms 37:1,2,9a,10,20,22b,28b,34b,36,38​

Psalms 37:3,9b,11,18,22a,28b,29,34a,37​

Isaiah 24

Isaiah 24:21-22

Isaiah 24:22​

Isaiah 24:18​

Isaiah 24:33​

Zechariah 14

Zechariah 14:1-3

Zechariah 14:1-3​

Zechariah 14:12-13​

Zechariah 14:4,9,21​

Revelation 6-22

Revelation 16:16

Revelation 20:2,3​

Revelation 20:10,11-15

Revelation 21:1-4
​

The location of this “reign” of Jesus and the saints, for “a thousand years” is never said to be on the plague wracked, utterly sin polluted and totally cursed and devastated “earth”, wherein even the upper heaven [atmosphere] is burned away by the second Advent [Genesis 3:17, 5:29, 8:21; Isaiah 34:4; 2 Peter 3:10-12; Revelation 6:14; 11:19, 15:1,6,8, 16:9,17-21, 18:4,8 21:9, 22:18]. So likewise for the passages of “Isaiah 2, 11, 65; Amos 9; Zechariah 14”. Read prayerfully and carefully for oneself. Where then is the “thousand year” reign of Jesus and the saints to be? It is to be in Heaven, the “third” [2 Corinthians 12:2].

Notice Isaiah 2:4 in which it speaks of, “... they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” That is the earth “made new”, wherein it is said in Revelation 21:4, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” The earth is not “made new” until after the 1,000 years, not before.

Notice Isaiah 11:4-10, in which the complete destruction of the wicked takes place first (as in Revelation 20:9-10, 11-15), and then follows the statements about the New Heaven and New Earth, which comes after the 1,000 years, see Isaiah 11:9, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” See Isaiah 11:6-8 and compare to Isaiah 65:20-25, 66:22-23. See that Isaiah 66:16 and its events, the destruction of the wicked in entirety, come before those other events, which take place in the earth “made new”.

Notice Amos 9:14-15 in which the events, “... they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.”, and of the planting and building are in the earth “made new”, after the events of the destruction of the wicked in Amos 9:8, which does not take place until after the 1,000 years as Isaiah 24 and Revelation 20 (and other places) show.

Notice Zechariah 14 carefully, and see that this is not referring to the Second Advent (the beginning of the 1,000 years), wherein the “saints” are “caught up” to “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), as also John 14:3 says, “... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”, but refers to the Third Advent, wherein the Lord Jesus comes “down” and touches the sin polluted earth, along with the saints and New Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives, as in Revelation 20, at the ending of the 1,000 years, and thus metes out judgment, executing all the wicked, and recreating the heavens and earth. See Zechariah 14:12-13,21 in connection to Revelation 20:9-10,11-15.

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].

 

[Alofa Atu]

They will take the mark during the Tribulation but the judgment does not fall until after the Millennial Kingdom.

Revelation 14:6-7 doesn't speak of 'their [wicked] judgment', but 'his judgment'. These are two differing things. You are in error. Again, it is not speaking of something future, yet to come (as you continually imply eisegetically), but rather it is already come (even is taking place now), while the everlasting gospel is being preached in all the world.

Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Notice, that the "this gospel of the kingdom", the same as the "everlasting gospel" is being preached in all the world, while in vs 7 the "hour of his judgment is come", not will come after the gospel does its work (Revelation 10:7). It is not future, but already present. The "hour" of "his judgment" is verily calculated from the prophecies in Daniel, connected with Revelation, see Daniel 7:9-10,13,22, 8:13-14,26, 9:24-27, 11:33,40-44, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:5,6,10,13-15, 10:6, 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5, 14:6-7, etc., connected with Leviticus 23 & 16, knowing even the 'hour', 'day', 'month', and 'year'.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Who exactly is this judgment exacted on?

You misunderstand the phases of judgment. It is not 'exacted'. See Daniel 12:1 for the conclusion of 'his judgment' as begun in Daniel 7:9-10,13,22. The angels of Heaven are even now looking at the books of records of all those who have professed in the Saviour from the time of Adam. Beginning with those who have died (first), and soon to pass to the living, who must be tried (Revelation 3:10, 8:1, 17:12) before they can be translated to Heaven (Revelation 7 & 14).

 

[Alofa Atu]

Secondly, all judgment centers on the revealed will of God, and it is to that which is refferred to, not the "Ten Commandments."

You have erred in understanding of God's perfect will:

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

The Ten Commandments are that which shows God's faithfulness (being all promises of God and His character; Exodus 20:5-7; Exodus 33:12-23; Exodus 34:1-9), his salvation, Exodus 20:1-2,6, his lovingkindness.

Seek to negate this, and you will never understand this prayer:

Mat_6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Those mentioned in v.12 are not Saints because they keep the commandments of God, they keep the commandments of God because they are Saints.

Did I ever say otherwise? No. Yet, you will refuse what I say.

 

[Alofa Atu]

They will take the mark during the Tribulation but the judgment does not fall until after the Millennial Kingdom.

Already shown you to be in error on this, here -

When does this judgment begin?

and here - When does this judgment begin?

Address what is written, not what you think I wrote.

 

[Alofa Atu]

So when does this...

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

...apply?

Revelation 11:15-19 told you.

Revelation 14:9 even told you. Notice the word "followed".

Even Revelation 18 (see vs 4,8), the repetition of Revelation 14:9, tells you.

The wrath of God is not poured out until "his judgment" (Revelation 14:6-7) is over. It, wrath of the Lamb, falls entirely upon the wicked, the unrepentant, while the saints are upon the earth facing the wrath of the dragon.

Notice the words "shall" being future tense, whereas "his judgment" (vs 6-7) is taking place now while the "everlasting gospel" is still working, for the time comes when no man can work.

 

[Alofa Atu]

So it's a little hard to displace this event from the judgment spoken of in ch.14.

Again, that is because you do not understand the phases of the judgment, see OP:

Pro_28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second Advent?

Psa_9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

1Pe_4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second advent?

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

When does this judgment take place? At the beginning or ending of the 1,000 years?

Psa_149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

You confuse the Great White Throne judgment with the other phases, their purposes and their timings.

It would be the same as confusing the searching/investigation of the fig tree (AD 31), the moments with the sanhedrin (with Jesus (AD 31) and Stephen (AD 34)), and the surrounding in AD 67, and the final leveling of Jerusalem in AD 70.

 

[Darrell C]

Not sure how this response was not clearly demonstrating the point that your view is in error:

So as to not repeat what was already clearly stated:

When does this judgment begin?

Again, this quotation does not deny my view:

What are you talking about?

Psa 9:3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

Psa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Psa 9:6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psa 9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Again we see the interwoven aspects of multiple fulfillment in Prophecy.

This has a primarily temporal context, yet ultimately the Hell that men will go into at judgment will be Hell itself, rather than sheol/hades. Unless you want to say that is irrelevant to the text. We cannot isolate this to the Tribulation only because destruction by the enemies of God will take place in the MIllennial Kingdom as well (v.6).

So again...you will have to show why this quotation denies my view rather than simply stating it does.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I would agree for the most part but the fact is that the Tribulation is the Judgment of God on this world, and it culminates in the Return of Christ.

Not what I said (anywhere), and not what Revelation 14:6-7 said. The judgment spoken of in vs 7 is for the professing, not the not-professing.

No, that is what I said, lol.

As far as the "professing" being judged...


Revelation 14:6-7 King James Version (KJV)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


...did you not notice that in v.6 what is stated goes out to...them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,..

...?

Not sure how many times I have to explain what I said before you understand. No, it isn't about His Return specifically but His Return is the crowning judgment on a seven year period of judgement.

Who exactly is this judgment exacted on? Jews? Gentiles? Both? In view is physical judgment on the earth, that again...culminates with the Reurn of Christ and the Sheep and Goat judgment.

Secondly, why would you displace Christ's Return from the events of the Tribulation?

Revelation 14:6-7 isn't about the Second Coming (event), but about the Everlasting Gospel and the judgment that takes place during that alotted time, not after the mystery of God (Gospel) is finished (Revelation 10:7).

You quoted me as saying...

Darrell C said: ↑

and it culminates in the Return of Christ.

...and I have given a more accurate statement to put your response in context.


The entire Book is about the Return of Christ, lol. The judgment you are trying to teach is a construct of your imagination. There is no...

"...'judgment' involving God's law and Ten Commandments"


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I did that already, but you refuse to see, as it is written of you.

And where exactly is it written of me?

You assume to pass judgment on someone's salvation because they disagree with you? Because they don't take...your word for it?

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Fourth Commandment (Exodus 20:11) is directly being cited, by Revelation 14:7, the very heart of God's Law, and a simple reference in your Bible will even show that to you (if not, check almost any commentary or even the TSK (Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, see "worship")):

To worship God is simply a basic Bible truth, and that you read into this that the Fourth Commandment is being quoted is ridiculous.

And it is apparent you have no idea of the Unity of God, seeing you seek to separate the Father from the Son:

Exo. 20:11 "... the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is ..."

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice, the delineation between the person of God (the Father), saying, "the commandments of God", and the person of the Son, "the faith of Jesus".

You understand that the Son is the Creator, don't you? From your teaching it seems...you do not.


John 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Colossians 1:14-17 King James Version (KJV)

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Do you understand that born again believers are eternally indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?


John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? What is His Word...

...that we have been commanded to keep?

It's not the Ten Commandments. We are ministers of the New Covenant, not of the letter.

You will never have a proper Eschatology until you first have a proper Soteriology.

The Commandments of God, as referred to in vs 7, are the Ten Commandments (cited specifically 3 times in the OT).

The implication being that men will have to obey the Law in order to be saved in the Tribulation. That is nonsense.

Men will be judged for not obeying the Gospel:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

If afterward, you still cannot see, the fault lies with you, not Jesus Christ, who came to heal all of blindness.

Particularly blindness in regards to the spiritual things of God.

You are imposing into the text that which is not there. Men will be saved by keeping the commandments of Christ, and the Everlasting Gospel does not impose a keeping of a Covenant that has been abrogated.

The only way men will enter into the Millennial Kingdom is, as Christ teaches in John 3...being born again. New Birth is the result of a man being Reconciled to God through Christ, which happens only when one comes into obedience to the Gospel.

When Christ Returns He will separate the sheep from the goats, and among the goats will be many who did not keep "the Second Commandment..."


Matthew 25:41-46 King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


...but that is not why they go into everlasting punishment. They go into everlasting punishment because they refuse to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And they did not keep the Word and commandments of Christ because they were not born again.


God bless.