When God forgives, does He forget also?

RJ...It's late and I don't have time to comment much but I did want to say Thanks...that was a wonderful study and very helpful...particularly the comments regarding relationship/fellowship.We'll talk more later.I do appreciate you taking the time to do that.

For Him,
Greg Sr.

 

Thank you for your honest and candid answer, RJ. I suspected that might be your view which is why I persisted. I haven't spent the hundreds of hours necessary to study out something contrary to most scholarship and now I won't have to, at least for a while, thanks to you. For now I know I am not alone, there is someone who sees the parable the same way I do. And I've read enough to know that you are a serious student who is willing to change any position, if dictated by scripture. FWIW, I reached the conclusion without the OSAS bias (which I still struggle with from time to time since I haven't put the time into it), commentaries, or extrabiblical reading. To me it just makes sense.

I wholly agree with your support statements. And verses 7,10, & 32 bother me as well but, like you, not near enough. I'm considerably more bothered looking at it the other way around.

 

We are in the time continuum and sin in our lives breaks our present tense fellowship with Him, as already mentioned and expounded upon, confession restores or maintains that fellowship.

Also, sanctification is ongoing. When the time is right, He reveals to His children their sins of ignorance. The acknowledgment of that sin gives power to overcome it.

Does He then forget?

Mark 10:27 ... with God all things are possible.

HankD

 

RJ,

The (OT) salvation is “mysterious” to me. Like IveyLeaguer, I hope God is amused with my attempts also while I try to figure out Gods character esp. when factoring in the trinity.

So anyway would you say David is praying to God through Jesus here? Does he have a sense of the mystery, the trinity?

Psalm 32:7 (KJV)
Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance.
Selah


Ephesians 3:9 (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Would you say David’s faith in God’s mercy in the (OT) relationship (which I agree was not in danger) that David knew he would be, or needed to be covered, recreated in a renewed spirit, knowing God’s plan of salvation? (At least for his people.) Psalm 51:9-12

Does David understand trinity or is he praying directly to the Father about what is to come?

 

Ben,

I would not suggest that David understood the Trinity. There are numerous shadows of the Trinity in the OT, but no clear pictures and certainly no clear statements.

Even after three years at the feet of Jesus, the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person (Heb 1), the twelve did not understand the Trinity (John 14:8-9). They did not believe in the resurrection, when first told of it (Luke 24:11).

Their faith was in what had been revealed to that point. No, they did not even understand all that had been revealed (IMHO), but they believed what God had told them. That was the essence of Old Testament faith. Nor would I even go so far as to say that David fully understood the basis of his security, in fact, the words of Psalm 51 almost make it sound like he was not fully convinced of his security (51:11).

David was praying to God. I am not even sure that he would have understood the term “father” in that context, since it is related to the Trinity. Yet, I have no doubt that all three persons of the Godhead were active in hearing and responding to prayers.

But, the question was, did he understand. I do not think so.

 

RJ,

I wonder if, in Psalm 51:11, David could be referring to a temporary loss of fellowship - communication, direction and all that goes with it - rather than security (relationship)?

IL

 

IL,

I can’t say for sure, but his words are pretty strong...

“Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” (KJV) Other translations seem to follow pretty closely.

I do not believe that either being cast away or having the HS taken from him were possibilities, but these sentiments do accurately reflect the insecurity often felt by a saint out of fellowship, both OT and NT.

Certainly we note a somewhat less despondent tone in the rest of the Psalm and we see phrases like – “wash me thoroughly... and cleanse me” (v. 2); “purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow” (v. 7); “make me to hear joy and gladness...” (v. 8); “blot out all mine iniquities” (v. 9); “restore unto me the joy of thy salvation...” (v. 12); “then will I teach... and sinners shall be converted” (v. 13).

The rest of the Psalm is more consistent with the idea of broken fellowship and chastening, etc. Perhaps if we focus on the contextual elements it is better to view v. 11 in that light as well. On the other hand, we cannot ignore the strong language that is indeed present in verse 11.

Not trying to wiggle out of giving a solid answer here, but perhaps we should not be too dogmatic on either perspective. Either would be consistent with the rest of Scripture and I am not sure that the passage itself demonstrates conclusively that either position is to be preferred.

RJP

 

RJ, the words are indeed very strong, either way. What I don't have right now is the context, the chronology, or the time to get it. From the fellowship side if David had already experienced, in a significant way, broken fellowship prior to penning the 51st, then at least it could be a heartbreaking thing to know he might be losing it, even if he knew it would not be permanent.

As you say, we shouldn't be dogmatic about it, I see it either way, also. What made me think about it was the fact that my pastor, still a young man, lost fellowship with God (or at least feedback) for a full year for reasons he may not fully understand, even today. There have been times when I could imagine surviving a tough period but right now, I could not possibly endure the next several months or maybe a year without His 'support', His lovingkindness and care. And protection. And supernatural interventions. And .... oh, boy, that brings up another question. Could it be that David could have known that God would care, protect, and provide for him but, being a man "after God's own heart", just grieved at the possibility of a communion loss? The emptiness of soul? Or does the loss of fellowship imply the loss of other provisions of God and, if it could, is that something far too difficult to define and quantify?

 

IL,

Some great questions. Right out of seminary, I could have answered them all for you, in a heartbeat. Now I am less certain.

 

A word of the wise. God Bless.

 

When David says, “Create me in a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.” It sounds like he’s asking to be reborn in the spirit. Hence my question about trinity. Next he says, “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation,” like he knows he messed up and can’t be in God’s presence, “Cast me not away from thy presence,” while in his present spirit and must be restored; mentioning “thy salvation” almost like he knows how about God’s plan for salvation.

Then when he says, “and uphold me with thy free spirit.” Looking at the words, “free” and “spirit”

H5081



From H5068; properly voluntary, that is, generous; hence, magnanimous; as
noun, a grandee (sometimes a tyrant):—free, liberal (things), noble, prince,
willing ([hearted]).

H7307



From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even
violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a
region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including
its expression and functions):—air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X
quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Free mentioning: generous, noble and prince in part, and spirit mentioning: breath, sensible, figuratively life, but only of a rational being; Made me wonder if he knew something about Jesus.

BTW RJ,

It is great to hear someone say they’re not certain about some things. Never heard Hank (the bible answer man) say that.

 

Ben,

Used to have "Ask the Pastor" every fifth Sunday Evening. Did it for years. Then it got to the point where the questions seemed more design to “stump the Pastor” than to better understand the Word. Occasionally I would get things I was not able to answer and then would study and prepare an answer, but found that more than the answer, they wanted to find something I had not studied out. There is a lot that I have not studied out as much as I want. Now I realize that if I live to 100 and my mind stays sharp, and Jesus has not come back yet, I will never even come close to fully understanding the Bible. (Of course my kids say that any “sharpness” is only a “legend in my own mind”, maybe!)

I have spent my life studying the Word of God. At only 48, I hope to have many more years to preach and teach the Book. But I have also come to realize that our little minds will never fully grasp even a small part of the greatness of our God. With each new glimpse of Him I realize the depth of my blindness, I cry out with Job, “I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes” (42:6). Anyone who does less needs to spend more time in His Holy Word and on their face in His presence.

Hank Hanegraaff does have a good grasp of the Word. I disagree with most of his eschatology though. Thomas Ice had a real good article on 1000 and Rev 20 a month or two back and soundly refuted some of Hanegraff’s ideas. His control of CRI was emblazoned in scandal. After reading some of his attacks on LaHaye and the futurist position I lost a great deal of what respect I did have for the man. Do a web search for “Hank Hanegraaff” and “Walter Martin”. You will find some interesting reading.

When all is said and done, I am looking for just four words from our Saviour, “Well done faithful servant”. If I can but hear those words, nothing else will have mattered.

 

RJ,

Just a couple years younger than you, but nowhere near the scholastic abilities or years of study. ADD maybe, but learning disabilities from childhood including a speech impediment severe enough that no one could understand me before 11-12 years of age. I spoke very fast, running my words together and didn’t pronounce the sounds, yet couldn’t talk fast enough to suite me or understand what the problem was until I heard myself in a tape recorder. Weird huh! Reading is extremely difficult as my mind jumps around thinking about things and I lose my place. Not stupid, I own a successful cabinet business and recently finished building a beautiful 5,400sf home for my family almost entirely by myself. I figure God has given me a different way of learning things and it makes me no more or less intelligent than anyone else as I can observe very literate people doing and saying dumb things and visa-versa.

When it comes to theology and learning a deeper understanding of the word I have to read between the lines of the very literate and understand their hearts, because it would take me 1,000 years of a sharp mind to read all the books. I probably could never be as literate as a lot of the people on this board and try not to be insulted if looked down upon knowing they could probably never reach my building skills from reading books.

I turned to God 11 years ago out of desperation and depression, reading the bible from cover to cover and went from there memorizing and meditating on His words and He has built me up, changed my life and I love Him dearly. In my search for better understanding I turn to others searching for the truths and figure God will find a way to teach me. Please excuse my annoyances, the bible tells me knock, seek, ask and it will be given you and I believe it.

I knew from (hearing) Hank Hanegraaff that I didn’t agree with him on a lot of things he says either.

I also pray that I will have served God well when all is said and done.

 

Ben,

Keep on asking questions! Even as a little child I used to drive my parents crazy with so many “why”s and “how come”s. With my own kids I have reaped what I have sown! They just keep insisting that it only takes a very short trip to drive me crazy! Hey, they say, I have lived in that neighborhood all my life...

Built your own house, pretty impressive. God gives us all different areas of skill and expertise, it is a great thing to be able to put your hands and tools to a piece of wood and create something. But one of the greatest abilities is availability, always remain sensitive the Spirit of God speaking through the written Word, and keep digging. Anytime I can be of help, let me know.

Ray