When is a church no longer a church?

[Salty]

Mat 18:20 tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered.....

So is it possible for just 2 people to organize a Baptist church?

Lets say a church gets up to 100 folks - then over time
families leave - no new member come..........
what should be the rule of thumb to disband their church?
suppose only 2 or 3 active members are left - ......

 

[Reynolds]

Mat 18:20 tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered.....

So is it possible for just 2 people to organize a Baptist church?

Lets say a church gets up to 100 folks - then over time
families leave - no new member come..........
what should be the rule of thumb to disband their church?
suppose only 2 or 3 active members are left - ......

How is God leading You? Do what He says, not what I say.

 

[canadyjd]

Mat 18:20 tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered.....

So is it possible for just 2 people to organize a Baptist church?

Lets say a church gets up to 100 folks - then over time
families leave - no new member come..........
what should be the rule of thumb to disband their church?
suppose only 2 or 3 active members are left - ......

The context of “where 2 or 3 is gathered” in Matthew 20 is church discipline.

I know of a small church that had membership down to a handful of little old ladies that refused to fold and met regularly for several years without a pastor.

They eventually were able to get a retired pastor to lead the church, and over the next decade or so they have brought the membership up to about 25 regulars (with 3 pastors coming and going)

So, as with all things (and as has been mentioned) let God lead your decisions, and never grow weary of doing good.

Peace to you

 

[Salty]

Outstanding, ladies

 

[Roy Kling]

The church isn't a building or even a fixed location, but lets take a look around my area. My Church, (Armstrong Valley Bible Baptist Church) is small, at Christmas service seating is at a premium with 100+ people attending. Normal services there are somewhere around 40 people who support the Church's expenses, building fund, missions, and all other expenses comfortably. We are totally independent and not part of a conference, so we can't be shut down by someone in a building in some city who deems us, ''unprofitable''. Our Church is a simple cinder block building, plain with a nursery, office, kitchen, and fellowship hall/classroom for formal Bible study. Our services are simple and timely, based on Biblical truth and the Gospel of our Savior, Jesus Christ. We have people from several towns attending, one couple drives almost an hour to be there. Our Pastor is full time and lives next to the Church.

Our area is rich in history with most being able to point out where the trading post and British fort was during the French and Indian War, small towns surrounded by prime farm land and mountains. The roads around here were laid out with horse drawn wagons in mind and Church's were numerous, within walking distance of a certain area of farms. Most of these Church's are small, some very small, but they're the ones that have survived, built by local families. Some share a pastor and rotate services between them, some consist of three or more Church's with social functions held at the largest of the three. They, being independent have survived. One Church, a mid size building built in the 1810's survives because the owner, (a cemetery assn.) lets them use it for $1.00 a year with the provision the congregation provides the up-keep and maintenance on it. They, like several other Church's in the area have a pert time pastor who has a full time job elsewhere. They survive and keep the doors open Sunday mornings at least.

The ones who close and get sold and repurposed are usually the newer buildings, and were members of a conference. I don't like conferences, but plainly it isn't the conferences that keep people away from Church. I remember a time when the majority of people attended Church at least on a Sunday morning. That was about all there was to do, most business's were closed, and those who were open were restricted in goods and services they could sell on a Sunday, (good old ''blue laws'').

 

[Salty]

The church isn't a building or even a fixed location,

I was not talking about a building...... but - I don't think you even answered the OP

 

[Roy Kling]

Bye the way, old ladies have always been a valuable core to any Church! They're often quiet, but rarely idle, always at work behind the scenes stamping tracts, doing light cleaning, or busy doing other small tasks that are often taken for granted. Thank you, ladies!

 

[Roy Kling]

You're right, Salty. I did venture off track here.

I believe two people meeting to worship and study God's word regularly are a Church, no matter where they meet. These two should be working to bring others to services and grow. One Baptist Church we worshiped in when I was a kid was the basement of a house, an old table sufficed for an alter, folding chairs for pews. At best 12-20 people worshiped there a Sunday. It was a solid Church, however the drive was long and mom took us to a Christian-Missionary Church.

Disband? I say as long as building expenses are met, no need to leave, PRAY! If expenses build and can't be paid they can still meet regularly to study God's word and worship, any room or structure can serve, even the shade of a tree in good weather. I say, praise God for the ''Church'' you have. Paul and Silas when cast into prison and bound and beaten, they sang hymns and praised God! Their Church was where they were at the time. When God sent an earth quake and freed the prisoners, Paul and Silas were found still praising God. The jailer and his house were saved and the charges dropped by the Jews. The world is a battlefield for men's souls. Our Church can be anywhere we seek God. Even the most glorious cathedral will fall and pass away as this earth will. It matters not where we meet, or the size of the meeting so long as we praise the Lord, and study his word, for his word will not pass away.

YES, two or three can, have, and will constitute a Church if need be.

 

[Salty]

I think of the first church i attended - The missionary pastor built his own home with the basement designed to be the sanctuary.
Would hold about 40 people - then in 3 or 4 years, we bought an old farmhouse to use as a church- would hold maybe 100. Then we built a new building - could hold about 200!

 

[Ben1445]

Mat 18:20 tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered.....

So is it possible for just 2 people to organize a Baptist church?

Lets say a church gets up to 100 folks - then over time
families leave - no new member come..........
what should be the rule of thumb to disband their church?
suppose only 2 or 3 active members are left - ......

Not to drag in another thread but the Catholic presence has informed me that 2or 3 gathering is not an assembly of believers, aka church. It’s great to be discussing this topic on the Baptist side of the forum.

I believe it is possible for two to organize a church. If they are serious about their assembly, we won’t be talking about “home church” where nobody else is invited.
Let’s assume we have ruled out a family as the model for a church.
I think that the two need not be from different families. Jesus didn’t specify that they be unrelated. I think that you can have a church wherever you have an assembly.
A church doesn’t require ownership of a building. People just need a place to meet.
Tax exemption is not a requirement for a church. Songbooks are nice but not required.
I think the only thing a church of two needs to worry about is a split.

When you dwindle down to two again, it is time to think about how you got there. If you’re stranded on an island because you’re lost and your boat sank and everyone is dying and there are two people left, I don’t think your church has a spiritual problem.
I don’t mean to make light of the question. My purpose in that far fetched example is that there are possible reasons for churches to “close” that don’t mean spiritual problems.
My recommendation is that church members not be weary in well-doing. If you have a building that you cannot afford, sell it and meet at home. Use the money to build your church (body of believers) again. Limiting liabilities as you shrink might be God’s way of bringing a church back to what it needs to be. If the assembly is not spiritually growing, then they should be where the pasture is good for feeding. If they have real interest in being fed, they probably won’t need to go elsewhere. If we only went by numbers, most church plants would never get far. I don’t know many who can say that the church has never “met” with none in attendance but the pastor.
We would have closed our church during Covid. Right now we have a great Bible study and prayer meeting with members of churches whose meetings have stopped. They go to their churches when they are open.

 

[Roy Kling]

The first Church we attended was new, just built. So new the pastor hadn't arrived yet and the building was still under construction. The first ''services'' held were summer Bible school class's for us kids held in a neighbor's yard under a tarp. Us kids carried the news of the new Baptist Church home to our parents in pamphlets. The pastor arrived and the Church opened later that summer. It was small, about enough room for about 40 people, on a good week we filled maybe half of that. The young pastor had an outside job to survive with a family, but still devoted himself full time to his ministry, when called he answered and hosted any social functions in his home.

 

[Dr. Bob]

What is a church? It is an organized body of believers, meeting together for edification, observing the ordinances, and fulfilling the great commission to preach the Gospel, baptize, and disciple believers. The church needs elders in leadership; it may need deacons to serve as numbers demand.

In Judaism there had to be a minyan - 10 families (full-time wage earners) to support the ministry. In Casper where I ministered 30+ years, we had a synagogue that thrived when the mineral resource businesses boomed and had full-time reb and ministry. It shut its doors in any downturn. They would bring in a guest rabbi (when closed) for the 3 high holy days' services.

When we planted churches or helped struggling churches, we tried to follow the same mentality. Sadly, in our years in Wyoming, we actually helped more churches close than keep going. Small town economies still are fragile and populations transient.

 

[Salty]

My good friend Mav (haven't seen him here lately) lives in Texas - where there is a Baptist church on every corner!
He would like to see more churches merge to be more effective - - yep when there are 10 churches in a 5 mile radius
with 3 that have no pastor - and a couple of less than 10 people -- I fully agree. But, I'm sure that Dr Bob would agree there are not that many Baptist churches in Wyoming!

 

[Dr. Bob]

More Baptist churches in Dallas than in entire state of Wyoming

 

[JesusFan]

Mat 18:20 tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered.....

So is it possible for just 2 people to organize a Baptist church?

Lets say a church gets up to 100 folks - then over time
families leave - no new member come..........
what should be the rule of thumb to disband their church?
suppose only 2 or 3 active members are left - ......

Supreme irony is that there are :churches" numbering in tens of thousands members, yet teaching heresy from the pulpit , so not a real NT church

 

[JesusFan]

More Baptist churches in Dallas than in entire state of Wyoming

More churches in Detroit Mi per capita then any other large American city, but does not seem to have had much real impact yet though!

 

[JonC]

Mat 18:20 tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered.....

So is it possible for just 2 people to organize a Baptist church?

Lets say a church gets up to 100 folks - then over time
families leave - no new member come..........
what should be the rule of thumb to disband their church?
suppose only 2 or 3 active members are left - ......

I believe when 2 or 3 are gathered Christ is there in the gathering (as opposed to being there with us individually, which He is as well).

I think a church ceases being a church when it ceases operating as a church whether it has 15 or 5,000 members.

I am not sure that 2 or 3 could constitute a church, but it may be the seed for a church.

 

[justapewfiller]

I was not talking about a building...... but - I don't think you even answered the OP

My thoughts...

From your OP, if those 2 or 3 that are left from the original church are gathered in His name, being fed, feel led to continue the church, etc then by all means they should continue.

I realize you are not talking about a building. But, I'm going to talk about a building for a second.

Sometimes, the building can become very intertwined with the identity the church in the mind of the members. Not saying it is correct, but it happens, particularly with older churches. If the members that remain cannot support the expenses of the building then they face a difficult choice of finding somewhere else to gather or disband. It can be a hard choice.

I'm not saying that should be what drives the decision, but sometimes it is.

 

[Ben1445]

My thoughts...

From your OP, if those 2 or 3 that are left from the original church are gathered in His name, being fed, feel led to continue the church, etc then by all means they should continue.

I realize you are not talking about a building. But, I'm going to talk about a building for a second.

Sometimes, the building can become very intertwined with the identity the church in the mind of the members. Not saying it is correct, but it happens, particularly with older churches. If the members that remain cannot support the expenses of the building then they face a difficult choice of finding somewhere else to gather or disband. It can be a hard choice.

I'm not saying that should be what drives the decision, but sometimes it is.

I am aware of a church who rented their building. Through the circumstances, they found themselves without a building to meet in and without a Pastor. As far as I know, they are still meeting at a members house. If they are not busy building that church, it won't last. You won't have the occasional visitor who just moved into the area looking for a church. I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I have never and don't think I would ever go door to door on Sunday Morning looking for an assembly of believers.
Like it or not, this church has entered the church plant stages of activity(in our present culture) no matter how old it is. It could survive there in somebodies basement, but if they don't figure something out, their days are numbered. Eventually the house they are meeting in will belong to the children and they won't have a building anymore. This is exactly what happened to them the first time.

 

[OLD SARGE]

Let It Die