When is a person saved?

[seekingthetruth]

I'm saying the word says;

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found (Found by whom, when?) naked. And we that are in the tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The elect, those set apart by the Holy Spirit unto the above have the following assurance of same.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The selfsame thing is that we like Jesus will be raised from the dead in an incorruptible house for the man (soul) just as the soul of Jesus was raised from the dead.

This passage doesn't begin at 2C5:1 it begins at least as early as verse 6 in chapter 4.

2C4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present with you. But what if the earthly house of the soul be dissolved/destroyed/perish. We (the soul) that is at home in the body (the earthly house) are absent from the Lord. To be present with the Lord you (the soul) must be in your house from heaven.

(For we walk by faith, not by sight. ) YLT for through faith we walk, not through sight --

2C4:13 says we have the same spirit of faith of someone that said.
I believed, and therefore have I spoken; From Psalms 116V10
It is the agony of Jesus going to the cross unto his death for deliverance.
Yet he had faith God would deliver him. You see the same thought in Heb 5:7,8.

Ok, but if God has preordained you to go to heaven before you were even born, then why do you need faith? Isnt that contrary to DoG?

If it is "all God" and none of man, then why does man need faith?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

I was saved, by the grace of God, when He justified me through the merits of Christ when I believed.

I am being saved as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling as God works in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.

I will be saved at the Last Day when I stand before God with my sins all washed away by the blood of Christ my Saviour.

That God set His love upon me in eternity and chose me for salvation is abolutely true (Eph 1:3ff; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Thes 2:13; Titus 1:2 etc.), but election happened in eternity, justification happens in time.

All of Him; none of me. Praise His name! :godisgood:

Steve

I agree that we are saved when we believe in Christ. But, if you are required to believe, then arent you contributing to the process? Thus it is not "All of God, and none of me" if you are required to believe before you can be saved.

If God set his love upon you and chose you to be saved before eternity began, then why are you required to believe?


John

 

[seekingthetruth]

no. Example: The president elect isn't president until the inauguration.
Because sin must be paid for. of courseBecause God is just. The atonement has nothing to do with choices. It was required because the wages of sin sin death. God cannot just forgive sins with the atonement of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:22, "...without shedding of blood is no remission.

If God is all powerful and can do anything, then why would you say that "God cannot just forgive sins with the atonement of Jesus Christ"? Who made God's rules? Why couldnt he? And if He chose you to be saved before eternity then why does He need to forgive you? After all, He has already made up His mind and you dont have a choice, right?

And again, "without shedding of blood is no remission". Why not? After all, He is God. Why would the God that created blood need to shed it if we dont have a choice? I can totally understand why the shedding of blood is needed if man has to be shown that he needs to make a choice, but without a choice what is the point?

Your argument makes sense when applied to freewill because man chose to be evil and God gives us a choice to ask for forgiveness.

But, your argument makes no sense if God makes all of the decisions for us and we have no choice.

I guess this is my main problem with DoG. It just doesnt fit with the entire Bible the way freewill does. There are too many verses that freewill explains and really none that DoG explains without taking them out of context and mixing a bunch of unrelated verses together.

Johnny Cochran said "If it doesnt fit, you must aquit". Well, DoG doesnt fit with the rest of scripture. Freewill does.

John

 

[revmwc]

I have been reading the different theologies here on the BB, and it brings up a question.

When are people saved?

If a person is predestined as one of the elect to go to heaven before he is already born, then he must already be saved before birth. If God saves a person without the person having a choice, then is he ever really lost? After all, salvation means going to heaven, and if God decided to give you salvation before birth, then arent you already saved before you are born?

And if God has decided to save who He wants to before we are born, then why did we need the sacrifice of Jesus for Him to do that. I mean He is a sovereign God isnt He? God doesnt need a sacrifice to make His choices, so if God does indeed make all of our choices for us, then why did Jesus die?

I am not trying to be funny with this, I really want to know.

John

What I see is because of His Foreknowledge, this is the key. What God foreknew about the choices you would make He therefore predestinated you to be a child of His.
He didn't chose to save you randomly, He chose those who would trust Christ, Those He knew would make a positive choice to believe on His son to be children of God.

1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter says we are Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Paul said:
Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Who He did foreknow He also did predestinate.

Our election, our calling, our justification and glorification are all based on what God foreknew about us. He knew what choice we would make. He didn't force us to make a choice, he didn't determine by His will that we would make that choice, He FOREKNEW the choice we would make and therefore elected us based on that choice.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I would say when they hear the Word of Truth and believe:

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

There is but one condition that must be met to recieve the promise of God's free gift of grace and the necessity of truth in this matter should not be taken lightly. Some attempt to uphold a doctrine which strives to declare inability and predestination rather than acknolwedge the true volitional nature of God's creatures, which by Divine design and in truth of His influence in all the world, gives the genuine ability for a response of faith to come from one's own heart. The "true" judgment of God (Deut 32:4) is His way, and in righteousness and truth this loving promise has been genuinely offered to all.

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

Good post:thumbs::thumbs:

If we dont have a choice then what does Rom 10:9 mean? It doesnt say that God chose you to be saved, it says we will be saved when we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts.

I dont see any other stipulations in that verse like having to be "predestined" or "elect"

Now I do believe that once we do confess and believe that we we become one of the "elect" and that makes us a member of the "predestined" body of Christ.

This is the argument in a nutshell. Calvinists take the terms "elect" and "predestined" out of context. The elect is anyone that comes to Christ, and the predestined are the body of Christ.

Neither term refers to the unconditional election of an idividual. Plain and simple.

John

 

[jonathan.borland]

Hey revmwc,

I said the same thing yesterday and then Skandelon replied thus:

Some might believe that, but I do not. That is not the scholarly approach of most respected non-Cal theologians, but unfortunately is what most Christians today think is the only alternative to the Calvinistic answers. It's really no wonder so many are becoming Calvinistic.

The problem with this is view is that it makes the same basic false presumption that the Calvinists make. They over individualize the concepts of divine election and predestination (a problem in Western worldview where everything is about US individually).

I don't have much time but think of it this way. A pilot can predetermine the destination of his airplane without predetermining the individuals who board, right? In the same manner, Paul teaches that God has predetermined to conform and adopt whosoever believes, even if they are not a Jew. That is Paul's intent in Eph 1 and Rom 8. God has predestined "US" (all who believe) to be conformed to the image of Christ and adopted as his sons. We eagerly await our adoption (Rm 8), and that is God's predetermined 'destination' for WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him, even if they aren't of the SEED of Abraham (which is the big debate of Paul's day).

Got to run. Feel free to follow up with questions if you have them. Thanks.

What do you think?

 

[seekingthetruth]

What I see is because of His Foreknowledge, this is the key. What God foreknew about the choices you would make He therefore predestinated you to be a child of His.
He didn't chose to save you randomly, He chose those who would trust Christ, Those He knew would make a positive choice to believe on His son to be children of God.

1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter says we are Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Paul said:
Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Who He did foreknow He also did predestinate.

Our election, our calling, our justification and glorification are all based on what God foreknew about us. He knew what choice we would make. He didn't force us to make a choice, he didn't determine by His will that we would make that choice, He FOREKNEW the choice we would make and therefore elected us based on that choice.

Exactly Rev....just because God foresaw what choice we would make does not negate the fact that freewill and choice are required.

I would disagree with your use of "predestinate". Predestinate is a corporate term refering to the body of believers, not to an individual.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Hey revmwc,

I said the same thing yesterday and then Skandelon replied thus:




What do you think?

Jon, you are correct in that God already knows what choice we will make. After all, He is everywhere, past, present and future.

But Skandelon is right about predestination. It is not referring to the individuals. Noone is predestinated. Predestination refers to the entire body of believers. God did predestinate the church, but He never predestinated the individuals that would be a part of it. That choice is left up to us.

John

 

[revmwc]

Jon, you are correct in that God already knows what choice we will make. After all, He is everywhere, past, present and future.

But Skandelon is right about predestination. It is not referring to the individuals. Noone is predestinated. Predestination refers to the entire body of believers. God did predestinate the church, but He never predestinated the individuals that would be a part of it. That choice is left up to us.

John

God knew the choice you would make before you were ever born. Just as He did with Esau and Jacob. God because He foreknew you and the choices you would make predestinated you to be conformed to the image of His Son. He predestinated the individual because He knew the choice they would make. He didn't force the choice, He Knew the choice. Why becasue He is omniscient.

 

[percho]

Is the following predestinated?

And the all things of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation, how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Just what is the plan of the reconciliation? Is everyone presently being called?
Are some actually blinded presently? Are not all born in trespass and sins (blind)?
Paul was blindly on his way down the road to put in prison and or kill those of the way. Who opened his eyes? Was he thinking about the last few days and suddenly come to the conclusion, that guy Stephen we stoned the other day was right. Why did Paul believe Jesus was the Christ? My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

Gen 12:1 And Jehovah saith unto Abram, `Go for thyself, from thy land, and from thy kindred, and from the house of thy father, unto the land which I shew thee.
Gen 12:4 And Abram departed, as Jehovah hath spoken unto him

Did Abram depart because Abram had faith in the Lord or was it by faithfulness Abram departed when he was called for through the sheep Abram
God was going to bring about the seed of the Woman? To Abraham and his seed were the promises made not seeds as of many but as of one, and that seed is Christ.

G3:19 Wherefore then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
G3:23 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law,
shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
G3:25 But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

It was through the faith of the one to whom the promise was made that you could be removed from under the penalty of the law. To give you hope for life by the resurrection of the one who had faith in his Father of raising him from the dead. He has received the promise. You are an heir of the promise that he has received. Abraham died not having received the promise, He is still dead today not having received the promise but his seed Christ has received the promise and Abraham and we will receive the promise at the next appearing of Jesus.

Right or Wrong?

 

[seekingthetruth]

God knew the choice you would make before you were ever born. Just as He did with Esau and Jacob. God because He foreknew you and the choices you would make predestinated you to be conformed to the image of His Son. He predestinated the individual because He knew the choice they would make. He didn't force the choice, He Knew the choice. Why becasue He is omniscient.

I agree with you, except for your use of the term "predestination". In every instance it is used in the Bible it is referring to a group of people not individuals, specifically the church.

God "predestined" the establishment of the Christian body of believers, not individuals.

John

 

[jbh28]

The president-elect can die before he takes office. The DoG says that God's will is absolute, so there is no way that a person predestined for heaven can die and go to Hell.

That's true. An elect person will not die before he is saved.

So, he must be already saved before he is born if there is no way to unsurp God's absolute will.

John

Not at all. I'm not sure how you can say this. It doesn't follow logic to say such a thing.

Now, where are you disagreeing. Are you disagreeing that God's will isn't absolute? Of course not! So, let me ask you this. If I were to have asked God 1000 years ago if you were going to be saved, could God have said yes. So could you have died before you got saved? If you say yes, then God was wrong.

Remember to ask yourself your own questions before asking them to someone else.

btw, did you understand my other points? You attempted an argument on the atonement. Do you understand the importance of the atonement now?

 

[jbh28]

If God is all powerful and can do anything, then why would you say that "God cannot just forgive sins with the atonement of Jesus Christ"?

Because God is just. Are you disagreeing with "god is all powerful and can do anything"?

Who made God's rules?

God

Why couldnt he?

Because he is just. Are you disagreeing?

And if He chose you to be saved before eternity then why does He need to forgive you?

Because I'm a sinner.

After all, He has already made up His mind and you dont have a choice, right?

What are you asking? Why don't you ask yourself these same questions.

And again, "without shedding of blood is no remission". Why not? After all, He is God. Why would the God that created blood need to shed it if we dont have a choice? I can totally understand why the shedding of blood is needed if man has to be shown that he needs to make a choice, but without a choice what is the point?

You need to be very careful. Are you sure you know what you are saying? Are you really denying the purpose of the atonement? Are you really saying that God could have just forgiven without an atonement?

Your argument makes sense when applied to freewill because man chose to be evil and God gives us a choice to ask for forgiveness.

But, your argument makes no sense if God makes all of the decisions for us and we have no choice.

First, we do have choices. So drop that straw man. Second, the atonement has nothing to do with our choices.

I guess this is my main problem with DoG. It just doesnt fit with the entire Bible the way freewill does. There are too many verses that freewill explains and really none that DoG explains without taking them out of context and mixing a bunch of unrelated verses together.

Ok, but this has nothing to do with the atonement.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess this is my main problem with DoG. It just doesnt fit with the entire Bible the way freewill does. There are too many verses that freewill explains and really none that DoG explains without taking them out of context and mixing a bunch of unrelated verses together.

Ok, but this has nothing to do with the atonement.

Its NOT OK (since he doesn't have a clue what Doctrines of Grace truly is) & you are correct JBH, it has nothing to do with the atonement.

 

[seekingthetruth]

That's true. An elect person will not die before he is saved.

Not at all. I'm not sure how you can say this. It doesn't follow logic to say such a thing.

Now, where are you disagreeing. Are you disagreeing that God's will isn't absolute? Of course not! So, let me ask you this. If I were to have asked God 1000 years ago if you were going to be saved, could God have said yes. So could you have died before you got saved? If you say yes, then God was wrong.

Remember to ask yourself your own questions before asking them to someone else.

btw, did you understand my other points? You attempted an argument on the atonement. Do you understand the importance of the atonement now?

I understand the atonement from a freewill perspective, but it makes no sense from a Reformed perspective.

Why would Christ die to change people if they dont have the ability to change? God didnt need to sacrifice Christ to change us.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

What I am saying is that without a choice, why was the atonement needed to save man?

God has the ability to save whoever He wants to right? God didnt need the atonement to save people, we did. But if we dont have the ability to accept the gift the atonement offers, then what was the point of it.

And, "God is just" does not answer the question.

And why do you Dogs always fall back to the "he doesnt understand Dog" argument when you cant answer a question.

And why do you always try to turn it around as in "What are you asking? Why don't you ask yourself these same questions.", and avoid answering? Of course i have asked myself the same questions, that's why they are on the board.

Dogs always, every time, no matter who it is on the BB, try to make all regular Christians look like fools.

That is why i despise Dog. I never want to have the self righteous attitude that they do.

John

 

[jbh28]

I understand the atonement from a freewill perspective, but it makes no sense from a Reformed perspective.

There's not difference. The purpose of the atonement is exactly the same in the free will side vs the reformed side. The only difference is limited vs unlimited, but not the purpose of the atonement.

Why would Christ die to change people if they dont have the ability to change? God didnt need to sacrifice Christ to change us.

John

Jesus Christ was sacrificed to pay for sin. We are sinners. it has nothing to do with free will.

 

[revmwc]

There's not difference. The purpose of the atonement is exactly the same in the free will side vs the reformed side. The only difference is limited vs unlimited, but not the purpose of the atonement.
Jesus Christ was sacrificed to pay for sin. We are sinners. it has nothing to do with free will.

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God therefore the Atonement of Christ was for all sinners. The difference is accepting or rejecting the free gift of Salvation that atonement brings. That is an individual choice by the person. I chose to receive Christ because God knew what my choice would be He Predestinated me.
God gave man the ability to choose to accept or reject but He did not choose who would accept or reject, He knew who would through His omnicience.

 

[jbh28]

What I am saying is that without a choice, why was the atonement needed to save man?

Because man is a sinner and a just punishment must be made.

God has the ability to save whoever He wants to right? God didnt need the atonement to save people, we did. But if we dont have the ability to accept the gift the atonement offers, then what was the point of it.

No, the purpose of the atonement was to pay for sin. It has nothing to do with choice.

And, "God is just" does not answer the question.

It is the correct answer. God is just and He requires a just punishment for sin.

And why do you always try to turn it around as in "What are you asking? Why don't you ask yourself these same questions.", and avoid answering? Of course i have asked myself the same questions, that's why they are on the board.

Ok John, let's try to not say false things. I've very clearly answered your questions. (Oh and don't talk to me in the third person) You are being inconsistent and so I asked for you to ask yourself the same questions.

Dogs always, every time, no matter who it is on the BB, try to make all regular Christians look like [snip].

Very false. We dont' do that at all. I've been very kind with you and patient.

That is why i despise[snip]. I never want to have the self righteous attitude that they do.

John

John, you need to cool down. You have a very bad attitude and shouldn't be posting like you are. I've attempted to have a civil discussion with you, but you have now resorted to saying I have a "self righteous" attitude and say that I treat you as you were a fool. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've answered your questions, but asked you to ask yourself the same questions. If you think about it, it appears that you are denying the sovereignty of God. I don't believe you are, but if you were to ask yourself the same question you asked me, you would see.

If you would like to continue, please refrain from the derogatory comments.

 

[jbh28]

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God therefore the Atonement of Christ was for all sinners. The difference is accepting or rejecting the free gift of Salvation that atonement brings. That is an individual choice by the person. I chose to receive Christ because God knew what my choice would be He Predestinated me.
God gave man the ability to choose to accept or reject but He did not choose who would accept or reject, He knew who would through His omnicience.

Ok, I of course disagree as that's not God choosing, but the purpose of the atonement doesn't change. It's still required by God because God is holy and just and requires a just punishment for sin.