When is an oak tree not an oak tree?

[franklinmonroe]

Um, it has been established for years that the teil tree is the same tree as the terebinth in this case. It is just another nuance of translation...

Established for years? Well, yes! The Latin Vulgate was established in 405 A.D. --

et adhuc in ea decimatio et convertetur et erit in ostensionem sicut terebinthus et sicuti quercus quae expandit ramos suos semen sanctum erit id quod steterit in ea​

As I have shown, most scholars and translators do think that the terebinth is the tree that is intended in Isaiah 6:13. However, I have seen NO evidence that the KJV word "teil" identifies the terebinth; in fact, all the evidence points to "teil" being a completely different tree species (the tilia). Previously, you argued that the tilia (teil) trees familiar to England could have been transplanted in Israel --

... Where has it ever been established that the wealthy of Isaiah's day could NOT have the teil trees imported to line there entranceways into the gates of their palaces????...

Then you argued that the "specific tree is not exactly mentioned either" (your post #27) and that the trees here were "mentioned as comparisons, not specifically and individual" (post #30) and you insisted that they were "not specific trees" (post #31) but rather figuerative "types". Now you're asserting that "teil" does specify the terebinth? Can you offer a dictionary that defines "teil"? Can you show us a source in which the word "teil" directly and clearly means terebinth.

Please elaborate; how is "teil" a nuance of translation? Why did the AV men chose "teil" over 'turpentine' (or terebinth) at Isaiah 6:13? The KJV translators knew the terebinth (a.k.a. 'turpentine') tree. Notice Ecclesiasticus 24:16 from the apocrypha --

As the Turpentine tree, I stretched out my branches, and my branches are the branches of honor and grace. (AV1611)

ego quasi terebinthus extendi ramos meos et rami mei honoris et gratiæ (Vulgate, 24:22)

I have stretched out my branches as the turpentine tree, and my branches are of honour and grace. (Douai)​

 

[Salamander]

Established for years? Well, yes! The Latin Vulgate was established in 405 A.D. --

et adhuc in ea decimatio et convertetur et erit in ostensionem sicut terebinthus et sicuti quercus quae expandit ramos suos semen sanctum erit id quod steterit in ea​

So?​

As I have shown, most scholars and translators do think that the terebinth is the tree that is intended in Isaiah 6:13. However, I have seen NO evidence that the KJV word "teil" identifies the terebinth; in fact, all the evidence points to "teil" being a completely different tree species (the tilia). Previously, you argued that the tilia (teil) trees familiar to England could have been transplanted in Israel --

Nope. I haven't argued anything. All I have done is submit reasoning that would show the premise that this tree could not have been the teil tree to be conjecture and presupposition.

I have seen, and you obviously overlooked, that even Gill recognized the fact that the teil tree /terebinth to be one in the same.

Then you argued that the "specific tree is not exactly mentioned either" (your post #27) and that the trees here were "mentioned as comparisons, not specifically and individual" (post #30) and you insisted that they were "not specific trees" (post #31) but rather figuerative "types". Now you're asserting that "teil" does specify the terebinth? Can you offer a dictionary that defines "teil"? Can you show us a source in which the word "teil" directly and clearly means terebinth.

John Gill Expositor.

Please elaborate; how is "teil" a nuance of translation? Why did the AV men chose "teil" over 'turpentine' (or terebinth) at Isaiah 6:13? The KJV translators knew the terebinth (a.k.a. 'turpentine') tree. Notice Ecclesiasticus 24:16 from the apocrypha --

As the Turpentine tree, I stretched out my branches, and my branches are the branches of honor and grace. (AV1611)

ego quasi terebinthus extendi ramos meos et rami mei honoris et gratiæ (Vulgate, 24:22)

I have stretched out my branches as the turpentine tree, and my branches are of honour and grace. (Douai)

​

Too many teachers driveth thee mad!

I don't know why they chose the teil tree, neither do you! Why not go dig up one of them and ask him? Y'know, King Saul did consult with the witch of Endor to bring back Samuel.:tonofbricks:

I believe if we remain calm in this matter we will eventually dig up the reasoning behind the usage and discover why those specific Bible scholars who interpreted the KJB to have used sound reason to conclude this to exactly be the teil tree.

All the resources I see which go contrary to the usage are MV proponents who ultimately attack the KJB and its translators, not just in this one case but in many cases as well.

You migth want to apply the real term "teil" as found here and then look at the next contribution as the "teile":http://books.google.com/books?id=5d...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

Seems you're arguing the term "teil" when you really should be amazed at yourself for the simplest of oversight of the term "teile"

"Teil" means to procure/ to obtain. This definition goes precisely with the theology behind God's Remnant being procured and obtained by and through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Blood!:godisgood: :godisgood: :godisgood:

Afterall, you ahve to admit the Book of Isaiah to be FULL of Gospel TRUTH!

YES! Although you may have not realized it, but through this discussion the word of God PROVES the be found ALIVE! and well!

Ever hear of The Primitive Quartet? They have a recording of "Leaves On The Ground" ( or something like that)

I can only imagine that through Divine Ordinance this song relates to what we just discovered. THE TRUTH of God's Word!

YES!

 

[franklinmonroe]

... I have seen, and you obviously overlooked, that even Gill recognized the fact that the teil tree /terebinth to be one in the same...

Gill never even uses the word "terebinth" in his commentary of Isaiah 6:13! Gill does not identify this "teil" tree by any other name. Gill does not associate it with the production of turpentine or give any other indication that he thinks "teil" is the terebinth. Gill makes no attempt to specifically identify the kind of tree represented by the word "teil" of the KJV text (other than the deciduous characteristic).

So, precisely by which phrase or sentence below do you think "John Gill Expositor" has affirmed a direct and clear meaning of the word "teil" as terebinth? Here is the appropriate portion (the entire context can be read at Post #25 and #27) --

as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves];
the word "Beshallecheth", which we render, "when they cast their leaves", is by some, as Jarchi, Aben Ezra, and Kimchi observe, thought to be the name of a gate in Jerusalem, called "Shallecheth", from which a causeway went towards the king's palace, from whence it had its name, (1 Chronicles 26:16) and along which causeway, as is supposed, were planted teil trees and oaks, which are here referred to. But the Targum, Jarchi, and Kimchi, interpret the word as we do, of casting their leaves: and the sense seems to be this; that as the teil tree and oak, when they cast their leaves in autumn, and look as if they were dry, withered, and dead, yet have a substance in them, and in spring appear alive and green, and flourishing again; so the Jews, notwithstanding their miserable destruction by the Romans, when they were stripped of all their riches and glory, yet were not utterly consumed as a people, but remained an entire distinct people, and do so to this day, among the nations of the world; though, like a dry withered trunk of a tree, without verdure or beauty; the reason of this follows:​

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Seems you're arguing the term "teil" when you really should be amazed at yourself for the simplest of oversight of the term "teile"...

Are you suggesting now that teil (teile) tree is actually the birch? In James Orchard Halliwell's 1881 A Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words, Obsolete Phrases, Proverbs and Ancient Customs (page 856) --

TEILE. The birch tree. (Lat.) According to Junius, the lime tree was so called.​

This entry serves to support the information as given in the OP: "teil" (or teile) is an archaic term meaning tilia which is also known as the 'lime tree' in England (the 'linden tree' or 'basswood tree' elsewhere), a variety of tree that is NOT native in the middle east.

Again, the evidence shows that "teil" does NOT indicate the terebinth or 'turpentine tree'.

 

[Salamander]

Gill never even uses the word "terebinth" in his commentary of Isaiah 6:13! Gill does not identify this "teil" tree by any other name. Gill does not associate it with the production of turpentine or give any other indication that he thinks "teil" is the terebinth. Gill makes no attempt to specifically identify the kind of tree represented by the word "teil" of the KJV text (other than the deciduous characteristic).

So, precisely by which phrase or sentence below do you think "John Gill Expositor" has affirmed a direct and clear meaning of the word "teil" as terebinth? Here is the appropriate portion (the entire context can be read at Post #25 and #27) --

as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves];
the word "Beshallecheth", which we render, "when they cast their leaves", is by some, as Jarchi, Aben Ezra, and Kimchi observe, thought to be the name of a gate in Jerusalem, called "Shallecheth", from which a causeway went towards the king's palace, from whence it had its name, (1 Chronicles 26:16) and along which causeway, as is supposed, were planted teil trees and oaks, which are here referred to. But the Targum, Jarchi, and Kimchi, interpret the word as we do, of casting their leaves: and the sense seems to be this; that as the teil tree and oak, when they cast their leaves in autumn, and look as if they were dry, withered, and dead, yet have a substance in them, and in spring appear alive and green, and flourishing again; so the Jews, notwithstanding their miserable destruction by the Romans, when they were stripped of all their riches and glory, yet were not utterly consumed as a people, but remained an entire distinct people, and do so to this day, among the nations of the world; though, like a dry withered trunk of a tree, without verdure or beauty; the reason of this follows:
​

Um, did I quote Gill? NO! But by your examples you say the teil is something different than the terebinth but everything I've seen they are the same, BUT! what I researched shows YOUR error in the spelling of "teile" which IS the tilia, but the TEIL is defined as to procure/ to obtain.

Why is it yopur type is always crying "foul!" when so little research is done by you? You argue little splinters while the whole beam is right in front of you!


Others relate the teil to the terebinth which does NO harm to the text.


What you claim along with others is as if some one made some GROSS mistake, while the only MISTAKE is your failure to give the whole picture as to what is really there in the passage.

 

[Salamander]

Are you suggesting now that teil (teile) tree is actually the birch? In James Orchard Halliwell's 1881 A Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words, Obsolete Phrases, Proverbs and Ancient Customs (page 856) --

TEILE. The birch tree. (Lat.) According to Junius, the lime tree was so called.​

This entry serves to support the information as given in the OP: "teil" (or teile) is an archaic term meaning tilia which is also known as the 'lime tree' in England (the 'linden tree' or 'basswood tree' elsewhere), a variety of tree that is NOT native in the middle east.

Again, the evidence shows that "teil" does NOT indicate the terebinth or 'turpentine tree'.

Obviously you fail to see where the two terms differ, still.

"Teil" is an "archaic" term meaning to procure/to obtain.

Maybe you should consider the aftereffects of the trees in their shedding their leaves? But why should you, you're too busy straining at gnats!

The word of God aptly grants the reader something "hid" to the natural eye. Could it be just as I have stated? Yes!

The passage is dealing with the prophetic environment of the Remnant and all the attributes of contributing factors described in nature.

Could it be you're operating with scales upon your eyes?

Tell you what, Brother, if you want to continue thinking that the teil should not be mentioned here, then forget that God procures and obtains the Remnant through the power of the Gospel. I don't recommend that you continue that train of thought.

:godisgood:

 

[franklinmonroe]

Um, did I quote Gill? NO! ...

To the detriment of all readers here, you don't usually quote sources. But, you were first to invoke his commentary when you wrote "Try John Gill for starters" (your post #19). What does the fact that Sal himself didn't actually cite Gill have to do with proving Sal's claim about Gill below? It only serves as a diversion! --

... I have seen, and you obviously overlooked, that even Gill recognized the fact that the teil tree /terebinth to be one in the same...

What evidence is there in his commentary of Isaiah 6:13 that Gill believes that "teil tree" means the terebinth? None! Gill does not even mention the word 'terebinth'. Were you avoiding the question because your false statement could NOT be substantiated?

 

[franklinmonroe]

... But by your examples you say the teil is something different than the terebinth but everything I've seen they are the same, ...

Unfortunately, in the brevity of some commentaries it may not made perfectly clear that the word "teil" actually designates a different tree species than the terebinth that has been almost universally accepted as the kind of tree that should be represented by the Hebrew word 'elah (Strong's #424) found in Isaiah 3:16. For example the entry for 'Teil; tree' in the International Standard Bible Encylopedia merely states that --

teil the King James Version Isa 6:13 = the Revised Version (British and American) TEREBINTH (which see).​

This gives the false impression that teil is synonymous of terebinth. In reality, there is no attempt to qualify the term "teil" here. But E. W. G. Masterman writing for the ISBE entry 'Terebinth' makes no connection between teil and terebinth; the choice is only oak or terebinth; in part --

ter'-e-binth: (1) 'elah (Isa 6:13, the King James Version "teil tree"; Hos 4:13, the King James Version "elms"); in Gen 35:4 (the King James Version "oak"); Jdg 6:11,19; 9:6 (the King James Version "plain"); 2 Sam 18:9,10,14; 1 Ki 13:14; 1 Ch 10:12; Isa 1:30; Ezek 6:13, translated "oak," and in margin "terebinth"; "vale of Elah," margin "the terebinth" in 1 Sam 17:2,19; 21:9. (2) 'elim (Isa 1:29, "oaks," margin "terebinths"). (3) 'allah (Josh 24:26, English Versions of the Bible have "oak," but the Septuagint terebinthos). (4) 'elon, "oak (margin, "terebinth") of Zaanannim" (Josh 19:33; Jdg 4:11); "oak (the Revised Version margin "terebinth," the King James Version "plain") of Tabor" (1 Sam 10:3); also Gen 12:6; 13:18; 14:13; 1 Sam 10:3; Dt 11:30; Jdg 6:19 all translated "oak" or "oaks," with margin "terebinth" or "terebinths." (5) In Gen 14:6 Septuagint has terebinthos, as the translation of the el of El-paran. (6) In Ecclesiasticus 24:16 terem (b)inthos, the King James Version turpentine tree," the Revised Version (British and American) "terebinth."

It is clear that the translators are uncertain which translation is correct, and it would seem not improbable that then there was no clear distinction between oak and terebinth in the minds of the Old Testament writers; yet the two are very different trees to any but the most superficial observation...​

A portion of the Dictionary of the Bible (1872) by William Smith, Horatio Balch Hackett, Ezra Abbot (page 2200) --

2. Elah (..."oak", "elah", teil-tree" in Is. vi. 13: "elms" in Hos. iv. 13). There is much difficulty in determing the exact meanings of the several vatieties of the term mentioned above: the old versions are so inconsistent that they be little by the way of elucidation. Celcius (Hierob. i 34) has endavored to show that el, elim, elon, elah, and allah, all stand for the terebinth-tree (Pistacia terebinthus), while allim alone denotes an oak. Boyle in Kitto's Cyc. art. "Alah") agrees with Celsius in identifying the elah with the terebinth, and the allon with the oak. Hiller (Hierphyt. i. 348) restricts the various forms of this word to different species of oak, and says no mention is made of the terebinth in the Hebew Scriptures. Rosenmiller (Bib. Nt. p. 237) give the terebinth to el and elah, and the oak to aliah, ellim, and elim.​

There is no mention of "teil" ('modern' KJV spelling) which is the 'lime' or 'linden' tree (tilia). There is an association between the Hebrew word 'elah and the terebinth, but there is NOT correspondance between the English word "teil" and the terebinth tree.

 

[Salamander]

To the detriment of all readers here, you don't usually quote sources. But, you were first to invoke his commentary when you wrote "Try John Gill for starters" (your post #19). What does the fact that Sal himself didn't actually cite Gill have to do with proving Sal's claim about Gill below? It only serves as a diversion! --

What evidence is there in his commentary of Isaiah 6:13 that Gill believes that "teil tree" means the terebinth? None! Gill does not even mention the word 'terebinth'. Were you avoiding the question because your false statement could NOT be substantiated?

We will have to presume Gill to be an idiot then and you to have a monopoly on the terebinth, but then the passage deals with the Remnant of God and "teil" fits that prophetic view and is in perfect harmony yet "terebinth" is the turpentine tree which only alludes to that which is obtained through the power of God and also kept.

You argue by a reference that associates "tilia" with "teil" .I show you a reference that reveals the hidden gold nugget on Scripture through the term "teil" . It meaning NOT the tilia which the term "teile" refers to, but does mean to procure and to obtain. By which is a pewrfect example of the very Gospel of Jesus Christ that performs this procurement and obtains the very people who make up God's Remnant and you stay stuck in the quandry of the mire you've invented.
:godisgood:
Very witty my Brother, but very WRONG!

 

[Salamander]

Unfortunately, in the brevity of some commentaries it may not made perfectly clear that the word "teil" actually designates a different tree species than the terebinth that has been almost universally accepted as the kind of tree that should be represented by the Hebrew word 'elah (Strong's #424) found in Isaiah 3:16. For example the entry for 'Teil; tree' in the International Standard Bible Encylopedia merely states that --

teil the King James Version Isa 6:13 = the Revised Version (British and American) TEREBINTH (which see).​

This gives the false impression that teil is synonymous of terebinth. In reality, there is no attempt to qualify the term "teil" here. But E. W. G. Masterman writing for the ISBE entry 'Terebinth' makes no connection between teil and terebinth; the choice is only oak or terebinth; in part --

ter'-e-binth: (1) 'elah (Isa 6:13, the King James Version "teil tree"; Hos 4:13, the King James Version "elms"); in Gen 35:4 (the King James Version "oak"); Jdg 6:11,19; 9:6 (the King James Version "plain"); 2 Sam 18:9,10,14; 1 Ki 13:14; 1 Ch 10:12; Isa 1:30; Ezek 6:13, translated "oak," and in margin "terebinth"; "vale of Elah," margin "the terebinth" in 1 Sam 17:2,19; 21:9. (2) 'elim (Isa 1:29, "oaks," margin "terebinths"). (3) 'allah (Josh 24:26, English Versions of the Bible have "oak," but the Septuagint terebinthos). (4) 'elon, "oak (margin, "terebinth") of Zaanannim" (Josh 19:33; Jdg 4:11); "oak (the Revised Version margin "terebinth," the King James Version "plain") of Tabor" (1 Sam 10:3); also Gen 12:6; 13:18; 14:13; 1 Sam 10:3; Dt 11:30; Jdg 6:19 all translated "oak" or "oaks," with margin "terebinth" or "terebinths." (5) In Gen 14:6 Septuagint has terebinthos, as the translation of the el of El-paran. (6) In Ecclesiasticus 24:16 terem (b)inthos, the King James Version turpentine tree," the Revised Version (British and American) "terebinth."

It is clear that the translators are uncertain which translation is correct, and it would seem not improbable that then there was no clear distinction between oak and terebinth in the minds of the Old Testament writers; yet the two are very different trees to any but the most superficial observation...
​

A portion of the Dictionary of the Bible (1872) by William Smith, Horatio Balch Hackett, Ezra Abbot (page 2200) --

2. Elah (..."oak", "elah", teil-tree" in Is. vi. 13: "elms" in Hos. iv. 13). There is much difficulty in determing the exact meanings of the several vatieties of the term mentioned above: the old versions are so inconsistent that they be little by the way of elucidation. Celcius (Hierob. i 34) has endavored to show that el, elim, elon, elah, and allah, all stand for the terebinth-tree (Pistacia terebinthus), while allim alone denotes an oak. Boyle in Kitto's Cyc. art. "Alah") agrees with Celsius in identifying the elah with the terebinth, and the allon with the oak. Hiller (Hierphyt. i. 348) restricts the various forms of this word to different species of oak, and says no mention is made of the terebinth in the Hebew Scriptures. Rosenmiller (Bib. Nt. p. 237) give the terebinth to el and elah, and the oak to aliah, ellim, and elim.​

There is no mention of "teil" ('modern' KJV spelling) which is the 'lime' or 'linden' tree (tilia). There is an association between the Hebrew word 'elah and the terebinth, but there is NOT correspondance between the English word "teil" and the terebinth tree.

And all you have proven is that these men were not inspired of God but are only commentators of whom with which you wish to agree.

Since "teil" is the modern spelling and "teile" is the that day in time spelling referring to the tilia, you have proved my point that "teil" refers to the action associated with the passage and fits directly and perfectly in that passage according to that day's spelling.

You're using a modern spelling against that which is past. There is YOUR error.

Even the linguistics argues against you premise that "teil" could have the same sound as "tilia". So to conclude that "teil" is wrong in the KJB is arrogant or simply just a mistake on your behalf.

I'll stick with "teil" meaning to procure by means of the Gospel and you can have the turpentine, OK?:laugh:

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Obviously you fail to see where the two terms differ, still. "Teil" is an "archaic" term meaning to procure/to obtain...

It is very clear that you have espoused the notion that "teil" is not the same word as "teile" based upon orthography. But English spelling was not standardized before the 17th century; a silent 'e' was often appended to words, and the last consonant sometimes was doubled by the printers to fill out the line of text. However, even beyond this the 1611 original AV spelling was actually "Teyle" (as I previously alluded in Post #20) --

13 ¶ But yet in it fhalbe a tenth, || and
it fhall returne, and fhall be eaten: as a
Teyle tree, and as an Oke whofe || fub-
ftance is in them, when they caft their
leaues: fo the holy seede fhall be the fub-
ftance thereof.​

In the glossary of Golding's translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses we find --

teil/teyle (n): lime or linden tree. Book VIII (795). NFS.​

The online American Heritage Dictionary states at TEIL --

n.
[OF. teil, til, L. tilia.]
(Bot.) The lime tree, or linden; -- called also teil tree.​

Webtser's 1828 Dictionary states --

TEIL-TREE, n. [L. tilia.] The lime tree, otherwise called the linden.​

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English shows --

Tilia \Til"i*a\, n. [L., linden. Cf. Teil.] (Bot.)
A genus of trees, the lindens, the type of the family
Tiliaceae, distinguished by the winglike bract coalescent
with the peduncle, and by the indehiscent fruit having one or
two seeds. There are about twenty species, natives of
temperate regions. Many species are planted as ornamental
shade trees, and the tough fibrous inner bark is a valuable
article of commerce. Also, a plant of this genus. [Webster 1913 Suppl.]​

In English Etymology: Or A Derivative Dictionary of the English (1783) George William Lemon lists from Saxon --

LIND/LINDEN - Sax. Lind; Iceland lind; tilia; the teil-tree: Lye.​

There is no doubt, in English "teil" (or its other forms such as "teyle" or "tiele") indicates the 'tilia', also known as the 'linden' tree.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Why is it yopur type is always crying "foul!" when so little research is done by you?...

That is funny! :laugh:

 

[franklinmonroe]

... What you claim along with others is as if some one made some GROSS mistake, while the only MISTAKE is your failure to give the whole picture as to what is really there in the passage.

It is evident that you want to have this thread closed and are attempting to offend by making false accusations. I hope your ploy does not work. This is a fascinating verse and the discussion could be advanced if so much time was not wasted upon correcting your misinformation.

 

[franklinmonroe]

We will have to presume Gill to be an idiot then...

Why must you (not "we") presume him "an idiot" simply because Gill is silent on the matter of 'teil' meaning terebinth?

... When I want to know what the Bible says, I do consult many comentaries, but to be certain I use a dictionary, or two, maybe three, to be sure of the contextual definition whether they agree with the commentator or not. Of course the Spirit being my guide into all truth...

So, since Gill is silent on the matter of the species of the tree referred to as "teil" in the KJV, show us the two or three commentaries or dictionaries that you used to make your absolute statement below --

The interpretation isn't limited to only a mid-eastern tree, rather the very trees referred to are ones that lined the gate entranceway. These very trees would have been ornamental, they very easily were imported for such use.

You didn't (and couldn't) prove it with Gill since he merely mentioned those extra-biblical traditions as "thought to be" or "as is supposed" by others that he didn't always agree with himself. You didn't write 'could have been' or 'maybe', you wrote that they are those trees. You stated as fact that the ornamental tilias were "imported". Where is your evidence?

 

[franklinmonroe]

... I show you a reference that reveals the hidden gold nugget on Scripture through the term "teil" . It meaning NOT the tilia which the term "teile" refers to, but does mean to procure and to obtain. By which is a pewrfect example of the very Gospel of Jesus Christ that performs this procurement and obtains the very people who make up God's Remnant and you stay stuck in the quandry of the mire you've invented...

Why didn't you say this in the first place (3 weeks ago)? So what are you suggesting now? that when reading the sense should be thus --

A remnant should return, and shall be eaten: as a procured tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them...​

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Since "teil" is the modern spelling and "teile" is the that day in time spelling referring to the tilia, you have proved my point that "teil" refers to the action associated with the passage and fits directly and perfectly in that passage according to that day's spelling...

Hmmm, that sounds a lot like the AV had the word "teyle" which meant the tilia tree in 1611, but the meaning was changed to 'procure' when a spelling revision caused the completely different English word "teil" to emerge. Isn't that what you said?

... My KJB is perfectly definable, without consulting modern verbage which has altered the language to make it "fit" the vernacular of a wicked world...

 

[franklinmonroe]

... I'll stick with "teil" meaning to procure by means of the Gospel and you can have the turpentine, OK?

Does that mean that the English word "elm" also means 'procure'? You know, in the case of Hosea 4:13 (which I hope to get back to) where the same Hebrew word 'elah occurs. Or is there different golden nugget for "elm" you will teach us?

... it has been established for years that the teil tree is the same tree as the terebinth in this case...

According to you "teil" does mean 'procure' while at the same time it also means the terebinth, right?

 

[Salamander]

It is evident that you want to have this thread closed and are attempting to offend by making false accusations. I hope your ploy does not work. This is a fascinating verse and the discussion could be advanced if so much time was not wasted upon correcting your misinformation.

Obviously the beam in your eye obliterates your vision to think there is any evidence of the sort.

I rather enjoy your blatherings about this and would love for you to continue to espouse the gross errors by your claims.

The passage demands clarification by every word of God to be established for the intent of God to perfectly relate the scope of the prohecy.
"Teil" as to procure and to obtain grants us the mind of the Spirit and allows us to have the word of God in perfect harmony.

What you claim does not!

Also of note, to speak of personification and the metaphor being the teil tree to also picture and foreshadow that procurement of the Cross of Calvary.

Another shadow of things to come would be that these trees align the gates to a palace which pictures the entranceway to Heaven through Christ!

Your claims would deny this very fact in point. I would hope you to see the grossness of your error and REPENT!

Next thing we know you'll claim something amiss about apples of gold and pictures of silver.

We see the glory of God in the apples of gold which all men should partake in giving Him that for He is WORTHY!

We see things yet to come in pictures of silver in the coming of the Messiah to redeem Israel from their sins. This all speaks of procurement of the Remnant.:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

Hmmm, that sounds a lot like the AV had the word "teyle" which meant the tilia tree in 1611, but the meaning was changed to 'procure' when a spelling revision caused the completely different English word "teil" to emerge. Isn't that what you said?

Not. You repeatedly claim it to be the tilia when it is not anything but the procurement of the Remnant.

 

[Salamander]

Does that mean that the English word "elm" also means 'procure'? You know, in the case of Hosea 4:13 (which I hope to get back to) where the same Hebrew word 'elah occurs. Or is there different golden nugget for "elm" you will teach us?

The context is different huh?

Would you be honest and enhance our interest and curiosity to show us that the passage means anything other than those who hide under the shadow of false gods?

The trees mentioned are metaphors again representing false gods. "Elah" is also the Hebrew term for a fasle god, especially when compared with "elohim" which is the ONLY True God.

I think maybe you forgot to mention this or have intentionally overlooked it to continue to make your claims against the word of God.

Shame on you!

According to you "teil" does mean 'procure' while at the same time it also means the terebinth, right?

Only in accordance with your claim that the teil is the word used in the place of the terebinth, but I have allowed you to see what the teil tree really is. The rest is up to you to see the truth.:wavey: