When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

[Brother Bob]

Ed Edwards:
Sky;

Has the old Covenant been done away with????

Are we living under the New Covenant??


BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is some perfectly good timing eschatology
for your perusal while I study what was said trying to
figure out what it meant.

-------------------------------

While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
References: (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.

Dan 9:27 [reference #2 from KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:

All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

Dan 7:25 [reference #1 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Dan 12:7 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Rev 11:1-3 [references #4 and #5 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.

The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

Rev 11:2 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.

The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.

Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

Rev 12:14 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

Rev 13:5 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.

So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods
In Daniel 9:27.

1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in Jerusalem/ is built)

2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, Ed Edwards; I see it this way and we as Gentiles were grafted in and became as one. I can't find where He said He would make a "new covenant" with the Gentiles, because He didn't even have an "Old Covenant" with us. As you can read below, the election of Israel were saved already. There had to be something for the Gentiles to be grafted in to. If Israel is still looking for the "new covenant", then there was nothing for the Gentiles to be grafted in to.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

As far as the Woman bringing forth a man child, I believe it to be Jesus being born.

As far as the 3 1/2 years, I believe Jesus preached about that long, and through His death the temple was resurrected, for He said you tear down this "temple" and I will raise it up again in three days, and really won a war. He conquered over death, hell and the grave and the accusers were over come by the blood of the Lamb. It is through what happened then, that we obtain the victory also.
I hear that the Jews have gathered material to restore the temple, when the time comes, because they do not believe in Jesus and that He was the temple. Looks like many Baptist don't believe He is the Temple either.
BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1611 Edition):
Giue none offence, neither to the Iewes,
nor to the Gentiles,
nor to the Church of God:

Three groups:
1. saved people (Jews & gentiles)
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

This is a key scripture which makes many other
scriptures. Unless one can describe thier
Eschatology in terms of these three groups
of importance to God - one will NOT get a
very good Eschatology

In fact, one needs to understand these three goups
before developing thier own Doctrines about:

Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
Christology - The Study of God the Son
Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)
Eschatology - The Study of Last Things


My eschatology in brief:

We are now living in the church age - when
the saved are one but NOT the same as:
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles


The saved in the Church age are one:
1a. the Jewish/Israeli Messanics (believe Jesus is the Messiah & Lord)
1b. the gentiles (believe Jesus is the Christ & Lord)

In this dispensation of the Church, these are two:
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

The Church Age will end when the Lord comes to
get His Church, then the Tribulation on the Unsaved
Period will begin. All the saved will be GONE home with
Jesus. There will be two groups on earth:

2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

Many of the Jews will get saved as soon as they
accept Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Messiah.
I suspect highly (and can argue it if you like) that
though gentiles CAN be saved, they will not accept
Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Christ (Revelation 9:20-23).

Thus will all Israel be saved (at one point in time, not
at all points in time). I believe this will happen at the
mid-point of the Tribulation for non-believers in Jesus
Period.

 

[Brother Bob]

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1611 Edition):
Giue none offence, neither to the Iewes,
nor to the Gentiles,
nor to the Church of God:

Three groups:
1. saved people (Jews & gentiles)
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

Now, Bro Ed Edwards we have something we both can work with.
1. You have just shown me a group which a part is the election of Israel that the "new Covnant" was made to.

Jer 31:31¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Also, you included in this group Gentiles, who had accepted Christ of which was made possible by:

Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

And made them "one" people under the new Covenant. I believe the Gentiles became fellowcitizens with the saved Israelites and become a Jew inwardly with the circumcism of the heart. I believe during this time of Church Age, before the wrath of God, that all Israel will be saved, which will include the Gentiles and Israel.



This is a key scripture which makes many other
scriptures. Unless one can describe thier
Eschatology in terms of these three groups
of importance to God - one will NOT get a
very good Eschatology

In fact, one needs to understand these three goups
before developing thier own Doctrines about:

Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
Christology - The Study of God the Son
Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)
Eschatology - The Study of Last Things


My eschatology in brief:

We are now living in the church age - when
the saved are one but NOT the same as:
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

I agree with this so far. I believe you will agree that among those "unsaved Jews" are the ones who were blinded in part. This is where we will begin to differ. These "blinded Jews" cannot be saved until the fulness of the Gentiles, of which you believe it will be sometime in "end times" and I believe it was when Salvation came to the Gentiles in full by the Apostle Paul who was chosen by God to send to the Gentiles.



The saved in the Church age are one:
1a. the Jewish/Israeli Messanics (believe Jesus is the Messiah & Lord)
1b. the gentiles (believe Jesus is the Christ & Lord)

In this dispensation of the Church, these are two:
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

The Church Age will end when the Lord comes to
get His Church, then the Tribulation on the Unsaved
Period will begin. All the saved will be GONE home with
Jesus. There will be two groups on earth:

I believe this to be the end, when the earth will pass away with a great noise. I believe in the Church Age, that all Israel, "the remnant", that is born of God will be saved.

2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

Many of the Jews will get saved as soon as they
accept Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Messiah.
I suspect highly (and can argue it if you like) that
though gentiles CAN be saved, they will not accept
Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Christ (Revelation 9:20-23).

Thus will all Israel be saved (at one point in time, not
at all points in time). I believe this will happen at the
mid-point of the Tribulation for non-believers in Jesus
Period.

I know that your eschatology goes much farther than this, and know what most of it is. I just believe, the things you believe is still to come, have already past and or are spiritual.


God Bless You Bro. Ed Edwards,


I believe we truly are brothers and every which one is right, the end result is we both will be with the Lord forever.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Ed Edwards:
Sky;

Has the old Covenant been done away with????

No. It is not fulfilled yet, Bob. No covenant of God can be "done away with" until God's promise be fulfilled. But Paul does say it "waxeth old like a garment and is READY to pass away."

Are we living under the New Covenant??

Partially so. The NC was promised to "Israel and Judah" (NOT spiritual Israel but religious and national Israel) but they don't have it yet, Jer 31:31

As to Dan 9:25-27, Isa 60-66, Ezek 40-46 -- they show the MK/1000 year reign you asked me about. That's the application. Have you read them and how do they show you that they have already happened?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

No. It is not fulfilled yet, Bob. No covenant of God can be "done away with" until God's promise be fulfilled. But Paul does say it "waxeth old like a garment and is READY to pass away."

Partially so. The NC was promised to "Israel and Judah" (NOT spiritual Israel but religious and national Israel) but they don't have it yet, Jer 31:31

Hbr 10:9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

You deny scripture Skypair;

As to Dan 9:25-27, Isa 60-66, Ezek 40-46 -- they show the MK/1000 year reign you asked me about. That's the application. Have you read them and how do they show you that they have already happened?



skypair

MK/1000 year reign you asked me about. That's the application. Have you read them and how do they show you that they have already happened?

Spiritual


Hbr 10:9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(No partial to it, and that is the word of God. Why do you deny the word Sky???)

Hbr 9:15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hbr 9:26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 8:13In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Already made the New Covenant, and we are living under it.

Are you still living under the Law Covenant Sky???

 

[Brother Bob]

No. It is not fulfilled yet, Bob. No covenant of God can be "done away with" until God's promise be fulfilled. But Paul does say it "waxeth old like a garment and is READY to pass away."

Partially so. The NC was promised to "Israel and Judah" (NOT spiritual Israel but religious and national Israel) but they don't have it yet, Jer 31:31

Do you have scripture to prove any of this stuff, or are you making it up???

As to Dan 9:25-27, Isa 60-66, Ezek 40-46 -- they show the MK/1000 year reign you asked me about. That's the application. Have you read them and how do they show you that they have already happened?

skypair

The following scripture says the old covenant is done away with, and also says that Jer 31:31 is fulfilled.

Hbr 10:9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


11: And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13: From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15: Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17: And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18: Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19: Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20: By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21: And having an high priest over the house of God;

BBob,

Christ is not going to die anymore or suffer anymore.

Scripture says:

Jhn 8:21¶Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.


So, if the blinded die in their sins as you suggest, according to scripture they can't go to Heaven and be with the Lord. You can't have it both ways. You have let the book of Dan. mess up your mind Sky.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

So Bob.

God had fulfilled the Old Covenant in a lie? For I see of the Abrahamic covenant to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob giving then the land for an eternal inheritance from the Euphrates to the sea (Med) and from Egypt to about Tyre. When was the fulfilled?

God promised David a kingdom on earth forever. Where's David? In fact, after Jesus there is no bloodline to him because, because of Joseph's side, all descendants are cut off. Do you're saying that God didn't fulfill that OT covenant either but has "abandoned" if, right?

What good are God's covenants anyway, friend, when God can do away with them unfulfilled??

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

So Bob.

God had fulfilled the Old Covenant in a lie? For I see of the Abrahamic covenant to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob giving then the land for an eternal inheritance from the Euphrates to the sea (Med) and from Egypt to about Tyre. When was the fulfilled?

God promised David a kingdom on earth forever. Where's David? In fact, after Jesus there is no bloodline to him because, because of Joseph's side, all descendants are cut off. Do you're saying that God didn't fulfill that OT covenant either but has "abandoned" if, right?

What good are God's covenants anyway, friend, when God can do away with them unfulfilled??

skypair

The blood line couldn't come through Joseph, it had to come through Mary. There was a Law in Israel where the linage or inheritance could not come through a woman, unless they had no brothers which Moses gave the women a right to inherit, if they had not brothers. Mary had no brothers so the blood line from David came through Mary and Jesus came to sit upon David's throne, to which there shall be no end. Do you honestly think that Jesus is going to get off the throne and give it to David. Remember when they called to Jesus, "thou son of David"????

I declare that you are just like the Jews, still looking for a natural kingdom. Well, look on and join them if you like. Jesus said if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come. Well, that sliver over in Israel that you talked of before, they all are going to die in unbelief. What good will a MK do them if they die in sin and can't go to where Jesus is. You need to get away from that Jewish doctrine, and believe Jesus on how the end times will be.

You are so confused who Israel is. They are those "born of God", in other words "born again". Flesh and blood, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. That scripture is telling you, to get it out of your head, just because they were born naturally so to the nation of Israel, does not make the Israel in the eyes of God.

Deliverance has come to Israel already, they just would not receive it and have died and will die in unbelief, and where Jesus is, they cannot come. That is the word of God, my friend. Accept it.

Have to go to church, will continue when I return. Have a good day Sky..........

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

The blood line couldn't come through Joseph, it had to come through Mary. There was a Law in Israel where the linage or inheritance could not come through a woman, unless they had no brothers which Moses gave the women a right to inherit, if they had not brothers. Mary had no brothers so the blood line from David came through Mary and Jesus came to sit upon David's throne, to which there shall be no end. Do you honestly think that Jesus is going to get off the throne and give it to David. Remember when they called to Jesus, "thou son of David"????

I declare that you are just like the Jews, still looking for a natural kingdom. Well, look on and join them if you like. Jesus said if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come. Well, that sliver over in Israel that you talked of before, they all are going to die in unbelief. What good will a MK do them if they die in sin and can't go to where Jesus is. You need to get away from that Jewish doctrine, and believe Jesus on how the end times will be.

You are so confused who Israel is. They are those "born of God", in other words "born again". Flesh and blood, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. That scripture is telling you, to get it out of your head, just because they were born naturally so to the nation of Israel, does not make the Israel in the eyes of God.

Deliverance has come to Israel already, they just would not receive it and have died and will die in unbelief, and where Jesus is, they cannot come. That is the word of God, my friend. Accept it.

Have to go to church, will continue when I return.

BBob,

Actually, the Lord Jesus had to be the "son of David", Solomon, Rheboam, and so on, all through Jeconiah, but the Lord had pronounced a curse on Jeconiah, that no "seed" of his should ever sit on the throne of his father, David. So the Lord Jesus had to be the Son of david, and the Seed of David, both of which he was, but could not be of the seed of Jeconiah, yet still having to be a son of Jeconiah. He alone, fulfilled all that through the "blood' and "seed" of David, through the line of Mary, through Nathan, as you mentioned. He fulfilled that royal lineage bit, as the legal son of Joseph, the son of (Je)Coniah, the son of David, hence the 'inheritance' did not come through Mary, as all, but through Joseph.

"Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph ...?" (Jn. 6:42 - KJV cp 1:45; cp. Lk. 3:23; Mk. 6:3)

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks Ed...... Have a good day.

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

Thanks Ed...... Have a good day.

BBob,

Thanks, I will. We are having our 225 year anniversary service, today, as our church was organized in 1782, when this was still part of VA. We happen to be the fourth oldest Baptist church constituted, and third oldest extant Baptist church "west of the Alleghenies".

I've got my food fixed, and will be leaving shortly.

Wish you could have joined us. We'd have liked to have someone who's been around that long! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[HankD]

I declare that you are just like the Jews, still looking for a natural kingdom. Well, look on and join them if you like. Jesus said if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come. Well, that sliver over in Israel that you talked of before, they all are going to die in unbelief. What good will a MK do them if they die in sin and can't go to where Jesus is. You need to get away from that Jewish doctrine, and believe Jesus on how the end times will be.

You are so confused who Israel is. They are those "born of God", in other words "born again". Flesh and blood, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. That scripture is telling you, to get it out of your head, just because they were born naturally so to the nation of Israel, does not make the Israel in the eyes of God.​

Deliverance has come to Israel already, they just would not receive it and have died and will die in unbelief, and where Jesus is, they cannot come. That is the word of God, my friend. Accept it.

Have to go to church, will continue when I return.​

BBob,​

​

That passage won't work Brother Bob because Jesus said the same thing to those who belived in Him:

John 13

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

It is obvious Jesus meant that they couldn't come "yet" and under their own power because He said the following to them a little bit later:​

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

He will come for us and take us away.​

As for the nation of Israel, they also are not ready and cannot come to Him. First they must be re-instated, then they will believe on Him as a nation.​

Pauls says:​

Romans 11:
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

The word "until" destroys the argument you make.
If the word "because" were there instead of "until" then perhaps then IMO you would have a debatable point Brother Bob.​

It is my interpretation that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are that regenerated believing remnant of Israel, that nation of Israel that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 21​

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

This nation of Israel bringing forth fruit which shall go out into the world during the Great Tribulation preaching the Kingdom of God.​

HankD​

​

 

[Brother Bob]

That passage won't work Brother Bob because Jesus said the same thing to those who belived in Him:

John 13

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.​

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.​

It is obvious Jesus meant that they couldn't come "yet" and under their own power because He said the following to them a little bit later:​

John 14​

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

He will come for us and take us away.​

As for the nation of Israel, they also are not ready and cannot come to Him. First they must be re-instated, then they will believe on Him as a nation.​

Pauls says:​

Romans 11:

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

The word "until" destroys the argument you make.
If the word "because" were there instead of "until" then perhaps then IMO you would have a debatable point Brother Bob.​

It is my interpretation that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are that regenerated believing remnant of Israel, that nation of Israel that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 21​

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

This nation of Israel bringing forth fruit which shall go out into the world during the Great Tribulation preaching the Kingdom of God.​

HankD​

​

​

HankD: do you believe that Jesus is King and sitting on David's throne forever???


Rom 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Luk 16:26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Jhn 8:21¶Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Sin is the reason they could not come where He is.

There is a big difference in Jhn 8:21 and Jhn 13:33 and there is no comparison.

Jhn 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Jhn 5:24¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (unbelief is evil)



As you can see in the following Salvation had not yet come to the Gentile or fulness come to Gentile as of yet.

Jhn 4:9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.


Then here we find that Salvation had come to the Gentiles and Peter was converted to believe and the fulness of the Gentiles had come.

Act 10:34¶Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Rom 11:23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Here we see if those who were blinded would believe now, they could be grafted back in, but they must believe and so according to this scripture they could believe, so that means the fulness of the Gentiles had come. (Salvation to Gentiles)

BBob,

 

[HankD]

Brother Bob is has to do with what the following verses means:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

Here is more detail concerning this matter:​

Luke 21
24 And they (Israel) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

The signs which shall occur as the Coming of the Son of man approaches:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;​

These have never been seen as of yet.​

When He does come:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

In fulfilment of the prophet Zechariah
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Brother Bob, the Jews are the chosen people of God, like it or not they shall be restored. We don't know exactly when:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

Jesus told the apostles that it is not for us to know when:

Acts 1

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

This was to continue on until the fulness of the Gentiles had come in.

This word "fulness" (pleroma) has the meaning of a boat for instance being loaded with cargo and boarded with passengers.

The boat will not depart until it is filled.

Israel has been blinded for a season until the Father (per Acts 1:7 above) has determined the time is over, the "fulness" of the gentiles has been accomplished and the Day of the Lord begins.

When the apostles asked Jesus this question:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

He did not tell them that they were wrong and that it would never happen but that it was not for them to know the times or the seasons but the perogative of God the Father alone to know the details of the time line.​

HankD: do you believe that Jesus is King and sitting on David's throne forever???

Yes.

HankD

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
HankD: do you believe that Jesus is King and sitting on David's throne forever???

Yes.

Would you please answer the following;

Romans Chapter 11:
10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

How could Paul save some of them. You know its the ones who are blinded because the chapter says so?

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
It is really simple, the first one:

How could they be saved if they abide not still in unbelief, again, you know its the ones who were broken off?

Could you answer the following for me and how could we be fellowcitzens with Israel, if Israel had not already received the New Covenant and many already saved?
1.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Question: Are we still aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope, without God in the World?


2.
Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Question: were we made nigh to Israel by the blood of the Lamb?

3.
Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??

4.
Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Question: Has God brought together Israel and the Gentile, so they are one??

5.
Eph 2:19¶Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Question: Are we still strangers and foreigners or are we fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God??


6.
Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Question: Are the only Jews the ones who have been circumcised outwardly???


7.
Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Question: Have we been circumcised of the heart???

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob is has to do with what the following verses means:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Those were the unbelievers.​

There were many thousand that the Kingdom was not taken away from. The Gentiles were grafted in and become a part of that Kingdom.​

Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.​

Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded​

Here is more detail concerning this matter:​

Luke 21
24 And they (Israel) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

Times of the Gentiles is not "fulness of the Gentile" One is destruction, the other is Salvation.​

The signs which shall occur as the Coming of the Son of man approaches:

Yes, it is yet to come and its the times of the Gentiles, not the "fulness of the Gentiles".

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;​

Same, you are talking about two different times.​

These have never been seen as of yet.​

When He does come:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Yes, in the resurrection every eye shall behold Him and every knee shall bow, this is the end times.​

In fulfilment of the prophet Zechariah
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. They crucified the Lord!!!

Yes, the earth turned dark, the veil rent in two and the earth did quake "and they confessed that this truly is the son of Man". The earth was fill with Grace and Truth and to become a part of it you must believe that Jesus is the Christ. Those cut off was for unbelief, but if they do not abide in unbelief, they can be grafted back in, NOW!!!!

Brother Bob, the Jews are the chosen people of God, like it or not they shall be restored. We don't know exactly when:

Rom 9:6¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
If you believe that all the natural seed of Israel are going to be saved, then you are wrong.

Rom 9:27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

Jesus told the apostles that it is not for us to know when:

Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Acts 1

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.​

Its the resurrection of the bodies and both soul and body then will be in the Kingdom.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

This was to continue on until the fulness of the Gentiles had come in.

This word "fulness" (pleroma) has the meaning of a boat for instance being loaded with cargo and boarded with passengers.

The boat will not depart until it is filled.

Israel has been blinded for a season until the Father (per Acts 1:7 above) has determined the time is over, the "fulness" of the gentiles has been accomplished and the Day of the Lord begins.

Day of Penecost

When the apostles asked Jesus this question:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

He did not tell them that they were wrong and that it would never happen but that it was not for them to know the times or the seasons but the perogative of God the Father alone to know the details of the time line.​

Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The resurrection and both soul and bodies will be a part of the Kingdom of God.



Yes.

HankD

................

 

[HankD]

1.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Question: Are we still aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope, without God in the World?

Notice Paul says "that at that time ye were without Christ". It is no longer "that time" but it is now the dispensation of the Church.

2.
Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Question: were we made nigh to Israel by the blood of the Lamb?

The object of this word "nigh" (near) is not Israel but God (refered to above in Ephesians 2:12).

3.
Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??

Yes, in this dispensation both the born-again Jew and the born-again gentile stand in the same position before God, can sit in the same pew, receive the Lord's Supper together, pray together, eat together, fellowship together, etc...

4.
Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Question: Has God brought together Israel and the Gentile, so they are one??

Yes see the response above this one.

5.
Eph 2:19¶Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Question: Are we still strangers and foreigners or are we fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God??

Yes and Jesus "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places"

6.
Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Question: Are the only Jews the ones who have been circumcised outwardly???

No in the context a "Jew" is one who having been circumcised outwardly keeps the Law as well.

7.
Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Question: Have we been circumcised of the heart???

As a synonym for having been born-again, yes.

HankD

 

[Brother Bob]

HankD;
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Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,487

RE: When is "fulness of the Gentiles"
Quote:
1.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Question: Are we still aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope, without God in the World?

Notice Paul says "that at that time ye were without Christ". It is no longer "that time" but it is now the dispensation of the Church.

Mat 10:5¶These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
He first came to His own, which was Israel and we had no part with Israel at that time.

After He arose:

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Quote:

2.
Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Question: were we made nigh to Israel by the blood of the Lamb?
The object of this word "nigh" (near) is not Israel but God (refered to above in Ephesians 2:12).

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus (Thank God)



Quote:
3.
Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??
Yes, in this dispensation both the born-again Jew and the born-again gentile stand in the same position before God, can sit in the same pew, receive the Lord's Supper together, pray together, eat together, fellowship together, etc...

We agree, which makes the former question plain also.

Quote:
4.
Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Question: Has God brought together Israel and the Gentile, so they are one??
Yes see the response above this one.

Agree

Quote:
5.
Eph 2:19¶Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Question: Are we still strangers and foreigners or are we fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God??

Yes and Jesus "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places"

Agree

Quote:
6.
Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Question: Are the only Jews the ones who have been circumcised outwardly???

No in the context a "Jew" is one who having been circumcised outwardly keeps the Law as well.
Quote:

7.
Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Question: Have we been circumcised of the heart???

As a synonym for having been born-again, yes.

Agree

HankD