When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

Here is some perfectly good timing eschatology
for your perusal while I study what was said trying to
figure out what it meant.

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While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
References: (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.

Dan 9:27 [reference #2 from KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:

All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

Dan 7:25 [reference #1 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Dan 12:7 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Rev 11:1-3 [references #4 and #5 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.

The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

Rev 11:2 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.

The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.

Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

Rev 12:14 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

Rev 13:5 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.

So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods
In Daniel 9:27.

1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in Jerusalem/ is built)

2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.

 

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1611 Edition):
Giue none offence, neither to the Iewes,
nor to the Gentiles,
nor to the Church of God:

Three groups:
1. saved people (Jews & gentiles)
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

This is a key scripture which makes many other
scriptures. Unless one can describe thier
Eschatology in terms of these three groups
of importance to God - one will NOT get a
very good Eschatology

In fact, one needs to understand these three goups
before developing thier own Doctrines about:

Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
Christology - The Study of God the Son
Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)
Eschatology - The Study of Last Things


My eschatology in brief:

We are now living in the church age - when
the saved are one but NOT the same as:
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles


The saved in the Church age are one:
1a. the Jewish/Israeli Messanics (believe Jesus is the Messiah & Lord)
1b. the gentiles (believe Jesus is the Christ & Lord)

In this dispensation of the Church, these are two:
2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

The Church Age will end when the Lord comes to
get His Church, then the Tribulation on the Unsaved
Period will begin. All the saved will be GONE home with
Jesus. There will be two groups on earth:

2. unsaved Jews
3. unsaved Gentiles

Many of the Jews will get saved as soon as they
accept Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Messiah.
I suspect highly (and can argue it if you like) that
though gentiles CAN be saved, they will not accept
Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Christ (Revelation 9:20-21).

Thus will all Israel be saved (at one point in time, not
at all points in time). I believe this will happen at the
mid-point of the Tribulation for non-believers in Jesus
Period.

 

No. It is not fulfilled yet, Bob. No covenant of God can be "done away with" until God's promise be fulfilled. But Paul does say it "waxeth old like a garment and is READY to pass away."

Partially so. The NC was promised to "Israel and Judah" (NOT spiritual Israel but religious and national Israel) but they don't have it yet, Jer 31:31

As to Dan 9:25-27, Isa 60-66, Ezek 40-46 -- they show the MK/1000 year reign you asked me about. That's the application. Have you read them and how do they show you that they have already happened?

skypair

 

So Bob.

God had fulfilled the Old Covenant in a lie? For I see of the Abrahamic covenant to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob giving then the land for an eternal inheritance from the Euphrates to the sea (Med) and from Egypt to about Tyre. When was the fulfilled?

God promised David a kingdom on earth forever. Where's David? In fact, after Jesus there is no bloodline to him because, because of Joseph's side, all descendants are cut off. Do you're saying that God didn't fulfill that OT covenant either but has "abandoned" if, right?

What good are God's covenants anyway, friend, when God can do away with them unfulfilled??

skypair

 

Actually, the Lord Jesus had to be the "son of David", Solomon, Rheboam, and so on, all through Jeconiah, but the Lord had pronounced a curse on Jeconiah, that no "seed" of his should ever sit on the throne of his father, David. So the Lord Jesus had to be the Son of david, and the Seed of David, both of which he was, but could not be of the seed of Jeconiah, yet still having to be a son of Jeconiah. He alone, fulfilled all that through the "blood' and "seed" of David, through the line of Mary, through Nathan, as you mentioned. He fulfilled that royal lineage bit, as the legal son of Joseph, the son of (Je)Coniah, the son of David, hence the 'inheritance' did not come through Mary, as all, but through Joseph.

Ed

 

Thanks, I will. We are having our 225 year anniversary service, today, as our church was organized in 1782, when this was still part of VA. We happen to be the fourth oldest Baptist church constituted, and third oldest extant Baptist church "west of the Alleghenies".

I've got my food fixed, and will be leaving shortly.

Wish you could have joined us. We'd have liked to have someone who's been around that long! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

That passage won't work Brother Bob because Jesus said the same thing to those who belived in Him:

John 13

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

It is obvious Jesus meant that they couldn't come "yet" and under their own power because He said the following to them a little bit later:​

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

He will come for us and take us away.​

As for the nation of Israel, they also are not ready and cannot come to Him. First they must be re-instated, then they will believe on Him as a nation.​

Pauls says:​

Romans 11:
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

The word "until" destroys the argument you make.
If the word "because" were there instead of "until" then perhaps then IMO you would have a debatable point Brother Bob.​

It is my interpretation that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are that regenerated believing remnant of Israel, that nation of Israel that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 21​

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

This nation of Israel bringing forth fruit which shall go out into the world during the Great Tribulation preaching the Kingdom of God.​

HankD​

​

 

Brother Bob is has to do with what the following verses means:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

Here is more detail concerning this matter:​

Luke 21
24 And they (Israel) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

The signs which shall occur as the Coming of the Son of man approaches:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;​

These have never been seen as of yet.​

When He does come:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

In fulfilment of the prophet Zechariah
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Brother Bob, the Jews are the chosen people of God, like it or not they shall be restored. We don't know exactly when:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

Jesus told the apostles that it is not for us to know when:

Acts 1

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

This was to continue on until the fulness of the Gentiles had come in.

This word "fulness" (pleroma) has the meaning of a boat for instance being loaded with cargo and boarded with passengers.

The boat will not depart until it is filled.

Israel has been blinded for a season until the Father (per Acts 1:7 above) has determined the time is over, the "fulness" of the gentiles has been accomplished and the Day of the Lord begins.

When the apostles asked Jesus this question:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

He did not tell them that they were wrong and that it would never happen but that it was not for them to know the times or the seasons but the perogative of God the Father alone to know the details of the time line.​

Yes.

HankD

 

Notice Paul says "that at that time ye were without Christ". It is no longer "that time" but it is now the dispensation of the Church.

The object of this word "nigh" (near) is not Israel but God (refered to above in Ephesians 2:12).

Yes, in this dispensation both the born-again Jew and the born-again gentile stand in the same position before God, can sit in the same pew, receive the Lord's Supper together, pray together, eat together, fellowship together, etc...

Yes see the response above this one.

Yes and Jesus "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places"

No in the context a "Jew" is one who having been circumcised outwardly keeps the Law as well.

As a synonym for having been born-again, yes.

HankD