When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

Nobody wants to answer this? This is a pretty radical stand, if this is what you're saying.

 

I would very much like your answer.

 

Is 'fullness' quantative or qualitive?

Rom 11:25 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant
of this secret (least ye should bee arrogant in your selues)
that partly obstinacie is come to Israel,
vntill the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 11:25 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):

I do not want you to be ignorant
of this mystery, brothers and sisters,
so that you may not think you are superior:
Israel has experienced a hardening in part
until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

I'd say quantitive.

[/FONT]

 

There must be some mass hypnosis going on or something. I've never seen as many people run away from questions as I have in the past couple of weeks. And, by some strange coincidence, it almost always seems to be the free-willers who are doing the running.

It's a pretty simple question. What are you folks afraid of?

 

I did not say "flawed"; I said "fractured", FTR.

The part that is 'fractured' is the attempt which you have quoted (note I did not say it originated with you, at all), to portray the speculations and licencious teachings of Gnostics, including those of Cerinthus, as somehow representative of the teachings of 'Millenialism'/'Chiliasm', and hence via a "guilt by association" approach, to oppose any and all forms of a literal Messianic kingdom on earth, at any time.

There is little question that Cerinthus was considered a heretic, by more 'orthodox' Christians, such as Irenaeus, Polycarp, and John. In fact, some of the teachings of the Gnostics, and specifically those of Cerinthus, as the 'leader' of one sect of Gnosticism, are said to be among the reasons John wrote his gospel, and his first epistle. They were contemporaries, even. As you cited above, the Apostle John, who was quite aged at the time, ran out screaming, so as to not even be in the same bath with Cerinthus, one time. (John would have no doubt, been well into his 80s at the time.) That is a pretty strong statement, I'd say, as to John's opinion. It certainly was not over his advocacy of 'millenialism', that John bolted, IMO. Irenaeus argued against many of the teachings of Cerinthus, in a part of his "Against All Heresies". Irenaeus was an advocate of one type of millenialism.

The most visible "anti-millenialist" around the early church was Marcion, the Heretic. Why was he considered a heretic? Was it because he opposed a literal kingdom? Don't think so. Remember Irenaeus? He argued just as strongly against Marcion as he did against Cerinthus.

Seems to me he held them in about the same regard. And one was somewhat in agreement with him, on the subject, while the other was opposed to it. The controversies about their teachings did not cease with their passings, although all three had died by ~ 170. Although the first great ecumenical council would center on the Arain herey, some of the teachings of both Cerinthus and Marcion would be addressed at the Council of Nicea, in 325, and be opposed by the council, and would be branded as heretical.

For some reason, that did not happen to Irenaeus. Wonder why?

G'nite, all.

Ed

 

I don't know why you're ducking. The above is very close to what I believe about the way end times play out. But you still haven't answered my question. My question is, "Do you believe that there will be a period of time on earth where living people will not be able to repent, even if they want to?"

 

Are you avoiding my question or do you simply not understand it? The question is pretty much a "yes or no" question. The thread included this from you and Ed.

It sounds to me like you're both saying that there will be a period of time (the earthly MK) where people will not be able to repent, even if they want to. This has nothing to do with physical death, or being appointed once to die. This is about people who are living on earth, but cannot repent, even if they want to. Is this what you believe or not? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. If I can't get a simple answer, I'll have to assume you're ashamed of what you believe, or are afraid to answer it, or something. Because I don't see how I can make this question any easier.

 

Well Brother Bob,

God bless you. We each have a different view (some more different than others) about "things to come" before , hile and after Jesus returns.

I've given my view as have several others.

I'm glad there is no animosity, that is as it should be.

And whoever is the closest to the actual reality, I don't think they will say "we told you so".

Your brother in Christ.
HankD

 

Just as a clarification to my question (maybe this will make it easier, after all) -- are you saying people won't be able to repent in the MK because there will NOT be an earthly millenial kingdom? Or they won't be able to repent because the opportunity will not exist for them, even though they're alive on earth?

 

Okay, NOW I understand, thanks. :wavey:

 

I want to make clarify on 2 Cor. 6:2. And also, I do not always agree with Brother Bob on everything what he saying.

Many areas, I agree with Brother Bob, what he saying. He says, there will be no repentance because there will be no MK earthly kingdom. Partially, he is correct. But, what I read his post. He says, he believes when Christ shall come, this old planet esrth shall be burned and pass away, and we shall dwell with Christ in heaven forever and ever. I do not agree with him.

2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, this old planet earth shall be burned and pass away, so, we are eager looking forward for new heavens and a new earth follow at the coming of the Lord in that day. I believe it teaches us, this old planet earth shall be burned and pass away at the coming of Christ. Then, after Christ judge all people, He shall recreate new heavens and a new earth. I believe we shall see a LITERAL physical new earth much more glory and beautiful than this present old earth. When the new earth crestes completed, Christ shall send New Jerusalem descend out of the third heaven, put it on new earth and we shall dwell with Christ on new earth forever and ever according to Revelation chapter 21.

Now back to 2 Corinthians 6:2. I understand this verse very clear, what Paul means. He told us, behold, today is the accepted time of salvation. The point is, our life is very short time, we only live at least 100 years, and die. Where our souls will go after die? James 4:14 tells us, our life shall be very short time and then vanished away. Often, people saying, "Not now, my life is plenty time to do, I do not need Christ." Many people do not realize, their life could be suddenly die the next day, it will be too late for them to make decision and accept Christ. When they once to die, it will be too late for them- Heb. 9:28. They are appointed to face the judgment once after they die. That why, they must make decision right now before too late.

Secondly, we do not know when Christ shall come. Bible warns us, Christ's coming shall be like as thief in the night(1 Thess. 5:2-9). Same as Christ explained in Matt. 24:37-42, Christ told us, His coming shall be like as Noah's day. When the flood came, people were not expecting it, and suddenly it came and took them all away - killed so quickly. Same with at the coming of Christ shall be come. When Christ shall come, His angels will come down upon all people, and grab them by supernatural force, and take them up to face the throne of Christ to judge them. It will be too late for them to repentance. Right now, people have time to make decision and repentance, because the gospel of the kingdom is still open to all nations for nearly 2000 years. They have time to make decision and repent. But, when once Christ comes, and angels grab them, it will be OVER for them to have another time of opporunity to make decison of repentance and salvation. It will be too late for them to repent afteer Christ comes. All people who do not repent, will be taken away by angels, and cast them away into the lake of fire. It will be done for them.

There is no another second chance of repentance beyond second coming according Matt. 25:13.

Dispensationalists believe people who will miss rapture, will have another chance to repentance during great tribulation period, will be saved during tribulation period. Also, some premills believe there will be repentance during MK time, because many babies will be born during MK time, will make decision for their salvation.

But, in 1 Cor. 15:50 tells us, flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. It means that, sins cannot be enter the kingdom, all flesh people(unsaved) will be destroyed by cast them away into the lake of fire at the judgment day. Only saved people will have immortality and enter the kingdom with Christ.

Matt. 25:41,46 telling us very clear, at the judgment day, all unsaved will be cast away into everlasting fire, and saved people(sheep) shall go into eternal life with Christ.

Jesus tells us, there will be no marriage, no more produce children in the next age to come, because people(saved) will be like as angels according to Luke 20:35-36.

The opporunity time of salvation offer to the world(2 Cor. 6:2) will be finished at coming of Christ, it's time for to judge the world(great white throne), cast all unsaved people away into everlasting fire, that's it.

That what the Bible teaching us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

What Paul said about Israel being hardened until the fulness of the nations has come in is the same thing Jesus said: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The nation of Israel was given a forty year period of grace after the beginning of the Gospel before the judgment of the Law was executed and the nation of Israel and the Mosaic Covenant came to an end with the destruction of the nation, the city, the temple and the cessastion of all the sacrifices and ordinances. But that could not happen until the Gospel had first been preached in all the world, to all nations.

Paul was talking in Romans 11 about those of Israel who were blind to the truth of the Gospel and was explaining why they were blinded and how long that blindness would last . . . until the great commission was fulfilled to all the nations . . . not just Israel. Then the end would come and the nation of Israel and the things of the Old Covenant would be destroyed.

But "all Israel" would be saved referring to those who were "Jacob," that is the remnant who were the elect, the younger brother, the new covenant Jews. The rest of the Jews were Esau . . . they sold their birthright to God's heavenly kingdom for a mess of pottage. Same thing with Isaac and Ishmael . . . Isaac was the second born son but he was the heir . . . Ishmael was the firstborn son but he was cast out. Old Covenant Jews were older brothers, New Covenant Jews were younger brothers . . . and just like Jacob they "supplanted" the older and became the heir.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . ."

So it was spoken . . . so it was done!

In Christ,
Deborah

 

The Great Commision is still happening.
New nations were both formed and discovered after the apostolic age passed with the death of John.

Christ has not yet returned and He said He wouldn't return until just before the end is "at the doors".

Matthew 24

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.​

Also "all these things" include are many events which have not yet occured:

Matthew 24

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

Many folks accept the literalness of Matthew 24:1-28 but want to "spiritualize" the rest of the passage which shows that the end can not happen until after the signs in the heavens has happened.​

The end of the age is yet to come.​

HankD​