Oops...Luke 24. The Isaiah passage is speaking of guile that is sin. Guile in itself is not sin, but the condition of the heart behind it.
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When is hiding who you are permissible?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
thegospelgeek
New Member
I understand your point, but there are times and situations where being quiet or hiding are indeed forms of deception. If a ruler of a country states that all christians are to be put to death, are you required to go down to the authorities and turn yourself in? Or can you go about your business untill someone catches you?
Does the bible state that deception is wrong in every case?
Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating open deception and falsehoods, just think that there may be cases where some spiritual guidance may be in order. I have never faced the sort of persecution that the early church did, nor what some in other countries face today.
Marcia
Active Member
Evangelizing in the mosque is not the issue here. We were speaking of someone pretending to be a muslim to avoid persecution.
Marcia
Active Member
Guile means deception. I could, if I had time, post dozens of verses telling us that deception is wrong.
As for Luke 24, that is not saying that Jesus was pretending to pass by. It seems to be saying his actions were in keeping with continuing on.
It seems like we are going in circles
If avoiding persecution is the means to evangelize in the mosque, why is that wrong? Like I stated, this is happening around the globe at this very moment.
Marcia
Active Member
I never said anything about turning one's self in. People here keep changing the conditions. Let's stick to one thing: should believers hide the fact they are Christians, especially by pretending to be an unbeliever?
What about Daniel? He let himself be put in the lion's den. He prayed openly when it was forbidden.
What about Peter denying Christ?
So if it were illegal to be a Christian, should we all convert to another religion? If someone asks, should we deny Jesus as Peter did? According to what some say here, this would be okay as far as I can tell.
Marcia
Active Member
You've changed the argument, Webdog. We were never discussing evangelizing in the mosque. I brought up the issue that in some countries, Christians go to the mosque and pretend to be Muslims so that no one knows they are Christians.It seems like we are going in circles
Jonathan used guile in saving David's life. The prostitute used guile to protect the Israelite spied. Pharaoh's daughter used guile to save Moses' life. Not all deception is wrong, as evidenced throught Scripture. I'm sure the verses you have in mind speak of a deception that is sin (stems from self), but not all deception is sin.
Luke 24 does indeed say Jesus was pretending to go further knowing they would ask Him to stay with them. Even if His actions were in keeping with continuing, He knew He wasn't going to continue on. That is guile (which means more than deception, btw)
A little off-topic, but being a Christian is not being a member of a religion. I know two Jews who continue to practice Judaism, but are members of Jewish temples. Not out of any fear or persecution, but because they have appreciation for the culture.
Marcia
Active Member
Did they lie?
If they did, then what are we to make of the statement from 1 Peter that there was no deception or guile in Jesus' mouth, and other passages that we are to be like Him?
What are we to make of other passages that tell us a lying tongue is abhorrent? What about Jesus saying he is the truth?
Where does the Bible define bad deception vs. good deception?
Rahab lied about the Jewish spies in Joshua 2 saying that they had left the city, but she had hidden them on the roof.
Then in James she is spoken of again:
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Hello,
I cannot imagine living in such a situation. I would be afraid. Perhaps I would rationalize hiding my faith with ultimately thinking God knows what's in my heart. Dreaming, I imagine boldly sharing my faith regardless of the outcome.
I don't know when it is okay to conceal your beliefs. I have never experienced such hardship and cannot advise either way.
I cannot imagine living in such a situation. I would be afraid. Perhaps I would rationalize hiding my faith with ultimately thinking God knows what's in my heart. Dreaming, I imagine boldly sharing my faith regardless of the outcome.
I don't know when it is okay to conceal your beliefs. I have never experienced such hardship and cannot advise either way.
1. The context determines how it is used. Peter used it in a way that would have been sinful.
2. Those passages are dealing with lying that is sinful.
3. Many places. Amy gave you one example. Jesus' deception is another, Pharaoh's daughter, Jonathan and David are others.
Billy Graham disguised himself when he came into a town so he could find out about the town and the people. I think Eccl. 3 address a lot of things. "There is a time . . ."
Tom Butler
New Member
I think we should be very careful in passing judgment on the actions of believers in counties hostile to Christianity. The scriptures do not call for only one response to such hostility.
In Acts 9, after Stephen's stoning, great persecution broke out against the Jerusalem church. Verse one says "and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles."
Note two reactions to the same persecution. Some believers fled, but the apostles stayed.
Later, after Saul's conversion, he began preaching boldly immediately (v.20). Then, many Jews began to plot to kill him. The disciples in Damascus let Paul down the wall in a bucket so he could flee. In other situations, Paul stood his ground and testified boldly.
webdog told of Richard Wurmbrand, the Romanian patriarch who operated underground. And then there is Joseph Tsan, another Romanian patriarch, who preached and wrote boldly, was told to stop by the Communists, and he refused. He told a party official to go ahead and kill him, but he wouldn't stop preaching.
Even today, there are Southern Baptist missionaries operating secretly in China. Are they wrong not to declare themselves?
I frankly am not going to second-guess those folks mentioned above, and am certainly not going to pass judgment on them. But it is obvious that neither scripture nor history gives us a cookie-cutter response.
In America, the circumstances are different. I would venture to say that not one Baptist church in the United States, nor any member of those churches, will have to flee persecution, go underground, and face death daily. I understand the motivation to hide the Baptist name, but in no way can anyone make it analagous to the examples webdog and I have mentioned. Any hostility to the Baptist name in America cannot be compared with them.
I think it's interesting that Christianity grew, even exploded, as a result of the believers' flight from persecution. Acts 8:4 "And they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the world."
I guarantee you that those believers were not implementing a marketing strategy.
In Acts 9, after Stephen's stoning, great persecution broke out against the Jerusalem church. Verse one says "and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles."
Note two reactions to the same persecution. Some believers fled, but the apostles stayed.
Later, after Saul's conversion, he began preaching boldly immediately (v.20). Then, many Jews began to plot to kill him. The disciples in Damascus let Paul down the wall in a bucket so he could flee. In other situations, Paul stood his ground and testified boldly.
webdog told of Richard Wurmbrand, the Romanian patriarch who operated underground. And then there is Joseph Tsan, another Romanian patriarch, who preached and wrote boldly, was told to stop by the Communists, and he refused. He told a party official to go ahead and kill him, but he wouldn't stop preaching.
Even today, there are Southern Baptist missionaries operating secretly in China. Are they wrong not to declare themselves?
I frankly am not going to second-guess those folks mentioned above, and am certainly not going to pass judgment on them. But it is obvious that neither scripture nor history gives us a cookie-cutter response.
In America, the circumstances are different. I would venture to say that not one Baptist church in the United States, nor any member of those churches, will have to flee persecution, go underground, and face death daily. I understand the motivation to hide the Baptist name, but in no way can anyone make it analagous to the examples webdog and I have mentioned. Any hostility to the Baptist name in America cannot be compared with them.
I think it's interesting that Christianity grew, even exploded, as a result of the believers' flight from persecution. Acts 8:4 "And they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the world."
I guarantee you that those believers were not implementing a marketing strategy.
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thegospelgeek
New Member
Sorry for off topic thoughts. I'll stick to the subject at hand. Should beleivers hide the fact they are beleivers? I think there are cases where the answer may be yes. The bible has examples where people pretended to be something they were not. Some were given as being wrong such as Abraham claiming sara was his sister, and other where it was OK such as the midwives at the time of Moses, Moses mother, David, etc.
I can see where if I were a Chistian in a country such as India, I would not go out wearing a Jesus Saves T-Shirt or put a Jesus fish on my car. However at that same time, if directly confronted by authorities I would say that yes I am a Christian.
That is why I say that being silent or hiding is OK at times. Are we not sometimes hidden? When I walk down the sidewalk in a large city, my Christain Identidty is hidden, if only for a few minutes. I must speak when God tells me to. Be bold when God tells me to, and be silent when God telld me to.
In our church services we have a time when people can give testimonies and sing songs as the Holy Spirit leads. Some people are very good at decerning if and when to testify or sing. There are others who think they must sing every service. They do not know how to follow what God tells them to do. Daniel did what he felt God wanted. Peter did not. Paul would go into towns at time and hide his identity for a while, Athens comes to mind. Was this wrong? I know it's not a perfect example, but it shows we should remain silent when God doesn't tell us what to say. Then speak boldly when he does.
Are you saying that a believer must never hide in any circumstance?
Marcia
Active Member
But she's not commended for lying. I think we have to be careful how we use accounts and event in the Bible. David had more than one wife and yet he was commended by God. That does not mean everything he did was okay.
Narratives are not prescriptive, especially considering we are told over and over not to lie.
"Do not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. " Lev. 19:11
Marcia
Active Member
I think it all depends on what is meant by hiding. I was talking more in terms of outright deception and lying. I do not think hiding is necessarily wrong.