When is/was/will the 1st seal be opened?

[timtofly]

He destroys His enemies and there are still nations to rule over. So sorry, no great fire that destroys the world at all when He returns.

Changed in the sense that they are saved. Not that they disappear or some such.



So the bible says there must be a temple there, and that nothing could possibly destroy it before the end. Chapter and verse?

? No one has ever or ever will keep the law. That will not be what saves them.

Not sure what you think harvest means in that context.

You seem to be thinking that when harvest is mentioned, that means some sort of sky ride? No. The wicked are killed right here. The stench will be bad.

Chapter and verse?

Sorry, that is gibberish.


Adam only lived about 930 years so there was no first 2000 years of him being punished. The nations no more oversaw some 'punishment' of Adam than they do now. Nations are just sinners in a group and area.


I think I'll cut of the reply here since you have descended into strangeness. By the time Jesus returns, notice that He comes with His saints. That means that they were already removed from earth before that time. There will also be plenty of flesh and blood left when He returns. The ones who fight Him will be killed, and the others will be alive. There will still be nations on earth that we rule over. So that business about folks born of Adam and Eve ceasing to exist seems bizarre.

The final harvest is the end of Adam's offspring. All humanity is killed. This punishment will only last for 6,000 years.

That any one thinks humanity will keep going in Adam's fallen nature are wrong.

Chapter 10 explains that the Thunders happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:4-7

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

After the 6th Trumpet in chapter 9, we see that the 7 Thunders sound, but John is not allowed to add them to the text. From that point on until chapter 11, and verse 15, John is pointing out what will happen during the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet brings to an end Daniel's 70th week. The 7th Trumpet brings to an end Adam's flesh and blood. Call it gibberish, but it will happen. No human flesh will be left alive when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. All the OT prophecy will be at an end, except what is written about the new earth and heaven to start the 1000 year reign in Revelation 20.

The 6th Seal is literally going to rearrange heaven and earth. No more spiritual blindness. What happened when Adam sinned and the destruction of Noah's Flood, will be reversed. All the stars will come to earth as angels. All the continents will be brought back into one. There will be nothing separating those on earth from how life was before the Flood. Before the Flood, the sons of God walked the earth and there was no separation of physical and spiritual. The sons of God became physically corrupted from Adam's offspring of corruptible flesh. They all were destroyed in the Flood except 8 people. 4 being males directly descended from Adam and Eve. At the Second Coming all of Adam's sinful corrupted offspring will have to die. Some will be changed and resurrected to repopulate the earth with permanent incorruptible physical bodies, but not the full glorified image of God. These will rule over their national ethnic families for 1000 years.

The final harvest is to remove souls from Adam's corrupted flesh back into the sons of God bodies. There will be no sin nor sin nature for this reason: Daniel 9:24

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The 7th Trumpet completes all these promises. The 1000 year reign is the Day of the Lord set aside for Holiness. It is this kingdom that Christ hands back per 2 Corinthians 15. Death being the last enemy. Until the 7th Trumpet, prophecy can not be complete. The end of Adam's flesh, and the punishment of sin is also listed as being complete and no longer required.

That is definitely not part of the here and now. People claiming to know God cannot even agree on these basic truths.

As for those who choose to be beheaded during the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13, that is the only way to save your soul. No profession of faith. One will literally have to beg to have their head chopped off to remain in the Lamb's book of life, and be resurrected into the 1000 year reign with Christ. Definitely not the way one currently joins the family of God in the second birth. Only those born the second time, a spiritual birth will be part of the church and enter Paradise. Those beheaded are not part of the church. Perhaps at the end of the 1000 years, but no verses to prove that.

The rapture and Second Coming happen at the 6th Seal for the church. All the souls harvested after that in the Trumpets and Thunders are not the church, but will live on earth in resurrected bodies in Revelation 20:4.

At each judgment there is listed a percentage of who will physically stop living in Adam's flesh and blood. In the Seals it is 25%. In the Trumpets is goes up to 33%. If the Thunders holds to the increase, the next will be 50%. If you start out with 8 billion, you loose 2 billion in the Seals. 6 billion are left. In the Trumpets another 2 billion, and 4 billion are left. In the Thunders you loose 2 billion. According to the world census 2 billion claim Christianity. Obviously not all are, but that is your last 2 billion, and the church leaves first. So is the church included in the 25% dead in the Seals, or not counted at all as dying since most do not consider the rapture as dying, but being changed in mid-air.

If there is a world war that breaks out soon and 2 billion die, and then 2 billion are raptured, that does not leave but half the population even before the Trumpets start sounding. If there are still 6 billion left after the Second Coming, that means 2 billion people are apt to choose to be beheaded.

It just means more people start out on earth in the Millennium, who would have otherwise been raptured into Paradise as the church. So whoever thought up the plan that only those who survive will be redeemed at Armageddon, were not basing it on the book of Revelation. Only those who have their heads cut off remain in the book of life. Those at Armageddon are the only humans left on earth. And they all die. That is the numbers given in Revelation. All those listed at the 6th Seal are still all those left alive at Armageddon. They were only offered death at each step of the final harvest. And billions died during each set of harvests.

Revelation 6:15

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

Revelation 19:18

"That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

No one raptured here.

Adam brought sin and death into this world. Jesus Christ as Prince will remove every last crumb of sinful flesh from off the earth. The last enemy is death, not sin. Sin will be finished at the Second Coming, and the end of the 7th Trumpet. Death on the other hand, defeated when fire destroys those last humans who accept Satan over God, and their deaths are the last of Death.

 

[dad2]

The final harvest is the end of Adam's offspring. All humanity is killed. This punishment will only last for 6,000 years.

Are you an offspring of the first man?

That any one thinks humanity will keep going in Adam's fallen nature are wrong.

The 1000 year reign of Christ shows that man's nature will still be sinful.

Chapter 10 explains that the Thunders happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:4-7

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

After the 6th Trumpet in chapter 9, we see that the 7 Thunders sound, but John is not allowed to add them to the text. From that point on until chapter 11, and verse 15, John is pointing out what will happen during the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet brings to an end Daniel's 70th week. The 7th Trumpet brings to an end Adam's flesh and blood.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that. Of course man's kingdoms and rule will be over. That is wonderful. This business about Adams spawn is another story. There are no people that are not descendants of Adam and Eve. Believers included. We are not going to end. Ever.

Call it gibberish, but it will happen. No human flesh will be left alive when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Nations will be here and so will the saved nation of Israel be here. Plenty of human flesh all over.

The 6th Seal is literally going to rearrange heaven and earth. No more spiritual blindness.

The Tribulation period actually is the period of the greatest blindness of all time.

What happened when Adam sinned and the destruction of Noah's Flood, will be reversed. All the stars will come to earth as angels. All the continents will be brought back into one.

So what? The continents were together before also and people lived fine on that land mass.

There will be nothing separating those on earth from how life was before the Flood. Before the Flood, the sons of God walked the earth and there was no separation of physical and spiritual. The sons of God became physically corrupted from Adam's offspring of corruptible flesh. They all were destroyed in the Flood except 8 people. 4 being males directly descended from Adam and Eve. At the Second Coming all of Adam's sinful corrupted offspring will have to die. Some will be changed and resurrected to repopulate the earth with permanent incorruptible physical bodies, but not the full glorified image of God. These will rule over their national ethnic families for 1000 years.

Having fun making stuff up?

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The 7th Trumpet completes all these promises.

To seal up prophesy does not mean whack everyone. I kid you not.

The 1000 year reign is the Day of the Lord set aside for Holiness. It is this kingdom that Christ hands back per 2 Corinthians 15. Death being the last enemy. Until the 7th Trumpet, prophecy can not be complete. The end of Adam's flesh, and the punishment of sin is also listed as being complete and no longer required.

Call the thousand years what you like. I see no reason Adam will not be helping Jesus rule here with us! Forget all of Adam's kids being whacked, He and Eve will likely be here too!

That is definitely not part of the here and now. People claiming to know God cannot even agree on these basic truths.

As for those who choose to be beheaded during the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13, that is the only way to save your soul. No profession of faith. One will literally have to beg to have their head chopped off to remain in the Lamb's book of life, and be resurrected into the 1000 year reign with Christ. Definitely not the way one currently joins the family of God in the second birth. Only those born the second time, a spiritual birth will be part of the church and enter Paradise. Those beheaded are not part of the church. Perhaps at the end of the 1000 years, but no verses to prove that.

Not sure why you pretend to teach when you do not know what you are talking about?

The rapture and Second Coming happen at the 6th Seal for the church. All the souls harvested after that in the Trumpets and Thunders are not the church, but will live on earth in resurrected bodies in Revelation 20:4.

Word salad.

At each judgment there is listed a percentage of who will physically stop living in Adam's flesh and blood. In the Seals it is 25%. In the Trumpets is goes up to 33%. If the Thunders holds to the increase, the next will be 50%

You seem to be referring to how many people on earth die.

If you start out with 8 billion, you loose 2 billion in the Seals. 6 billion are left. In the Trumpets another 2 billion, and 4 billion are left. In the Thunders you loose 2 billion. According to the world census 2 billion claim Christianity. Obviously not all are, but that is your last 2 billion, and the church leaves first. So is the church included in the 25% dead in the Seals, or not counted at all as dying since most do not consider the rapture as dying, but being changed in mid-air.

If there is a world war that breaks out soon and 2 billion die, and then 2 billion are raptured, that does not leave but half the population even before the Trumpets start sounding. If there are still 6 billion left after the Second Coming, that means 2 billion people are apt to choose to be beheaded.

It just means more people start out on earth in the Millennium, who would have otherwise been raptured into Paradise as the church.

So what? Who cares about the number of people, which we don't know anyhow?

So whoever thought up the plan that only those who survive will be redeemed at Armageddon, were not basing it on the book of Revelation. Only those who have their heads cut off remain in the book of life

Say what? No one can possibly be saved except those who lose their head?? Why make stuff up? The 144,000 are saved. The witnesses are saved. A multitude so big no man could number it were saved. They were not missing their heads!


.

Those at Armageddon are the only humans left on earth. And they all die.

Utter rubbish. Of course the fools who came to Israel to fight God, inspired to do so by demons will die. That is not everyone on earth! Do you think earth ended at the battle of Waterloo also?

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

Of course people need to hide. So? How about the saved in that time? Do you think they will be sunbathing and laughing when the hundred pound hailstones fall?

Revelation 19:18

"That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

Of those killed in the battle. Not of every man woman and child on planet earth!

Adam brought sin and death into this world. Jesus Christ as Prince will remove every last crumb of sinful flesh from off the earth.

Eventually. The first 1000 years shows us it was still not all removed yet though.

The last enemy is death, not sin. Sin will be finished at the Second Coming,

Says who? Why do the wicked led by Satan surround the camp of saints at the end of the 1000 years if there is no sin anywhere?

and the end of the 7th Trumpet. Death on the other hand, defeated when fire destroys those last humans who accept Satan over God, and their deaths are the last of Death.

More word salad.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Psalm 45:3. ‘Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, with Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility and righteousness; and Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; the peoples fall under You.’

In Chapter Four, we saw John taken up into heaven where he saw the Triune God seated upon His throne. We saw that worship was given to Him by men and angels as Creator and Ruler of all things. In Chapter Five, we saw a scroll or book held in God’s hand; it was sealed with seven seals. This represents God’s decree for the age, particularly as it applies to redemption. But no one can be found in heaven (an angel) or on earth (living hero) or under the earth (great man of the past) who is worthy to open the seals. We saw that John ‘wept much’ for unless the seals are opened, the Gospel age cannot take place; sinners cannot be saved. However, one person is found who can do the job. Christ alone is worthy because He, the Lamb who was slain, has prevailed over Satan, death and hell. We saw that all creation breakes out in songs of praise to Christ and that He receives the same worship as God, showing that He is indeed God the Son.

In Chapter Six, the Lamb opens the seven seals that are on the scroll.

6:1. ‘Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”’

The Lamb opens the first seal. We must not press the imagery too far here. Obviously one could not open a scroll if there were six seals still on it. What we are being shown here is seven aspects of the world between the first and second coming of Christ (1). When we come to the seven trumpets and the seven plagues later in the book, we shall see that they show different perspectives of the same thing. John is bidden to observe what happens (2).

6:2. ‘And I looked, and behold! A white horse, and He who sat upon it had a bow, and a crown was given to Him and He went forth conquering and to conquer.’

The horse imagery comes from Zechariah 1:8 and 6:1-6. There the horses seem to represent God’s judgements going out into the world. So it is here in Revelation. So who is the White Rider? Some have suggested that he represents political power and conquest, others that he is the anti-Christ, still others that he represents the Parthian empire which defeated a Roman army in 62AD. There is no doubt at all in my mind that this Rider is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. If we seek help from the Old Testament, we need look no further than Psalm 45:3-5. This is clearly a messianic Psalm and the reference to arrows corresponds with the bow that is given to the White Rider. Add to this the fact that white clothing is associated with purity throughout the Bible and particularly in Revelation (eg. 3:5; 6:11; 7:9; 19:14), and that the figure in 19:11 who is clearly Christ rides a white horse, and the case is proved.

So all the time between His first Coming and His second, the Lord Jesus Christ will be building His Church (Matt 16:18), sacking the borders of hell, bringing lost sinners to salvation. ‘No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house’ (Mark 3:27). The Lord Jesus has defeated Satan on the cross and has bound the strong man. The devil cannot prevent sinners coming to Christ and that is what is happening all over the world and has been happening ever since Pentecost. It may not seem very much like it in Britain at the present time, but in fact we are living through the greatest period of expansion of the Church in its history. Tens of thousands are being saved every day in China, Africa, South America, often in the teeth of the most bitter and violent persecution. The strong man struggles hard but he cannot resist the One who is stronger than he and we can rejoice that Christ is conquering even today and His final victory is assured.

However, this continuing victory goes on against a sombre background. All the time that the Lord is conquering, we are warned that there will be a backdrop of war, violence, scarcity, inequality, disease and death typified by the other three horsemen. Once again, there is an Old Testament reference here of ‘Sword, famine and pestilence’ (Jeremiah 14:12; Ezekiel 14:21).

[taken from my blog: Revelation (3). Chapter 6: The Seven seals]

 

[timtofly]

Hams wife.

Noah’s daughter n law

Noah would have married as well, no? He did have 3 sons, one being Ham. You call them giants. I doubt one married a giant. All 4 males married someone, and they did not have to be a giant. Giants just became a dominant factor in their genetics. Ham himself could have had more giant genetics than his two brothers. The Flood was around 4500 years ago. Noah, himself had already had part giant genetic DNA. You do not have to single out a fact that Ham married a pure blood son of God. He was the last generation, and by that time there were not any. Noah was 500 years old when he had his three sons. Look at the family tree. The great grand son of Seth was named Cainan. Normally families recycle names. That mixed bloodline could have already started that soon. The sons of God having offspring with Adam's daughters, Seth's daughters, Enos' daughters, and by the time Cainan was born, who he married could already produce these so called giants. Saying that Noah himself could have been larger than average of the first born males since Seth is not out of the question. He did build an ark that was fairly huge, that would have taken a lot of strength or ingenuity for a normal person of today. I doubt you can single out just one son whose wife, alone, was special. The point of Genesis 6 is also that all the sons of God had been corrupted, over many generations. Adam and his bad fruit corrupted the whole of society. It was not the point that the sons of God literally made Adam's flesh better and better. It just means Adam's fallen corruptible genetics had the potential of bearing offspring who could be considered giants through Ham, more than through his two brothers.

 

[timtofly]

This is all horse feathers. Adam was the great-several hunderd times-grandfather of all people.

Noah was a direct descendant. Noah was also the great-several hundred times-grandfather of all people.

 

[robycop3]

Only thing we see special about Noah is that he believed & obeyed God.

 

[Two Wings]

Noah would have married as well, no? He did have 3 sons, one being Ham. You call them giants. I doubt one married a giant. All 4 males married someone, and they did not have to be a giant. Giants just became a dominant factor in their genetics. Ham himself could have had more giant genetics than his two brothers. The Flood was around 4500 years ago. Noah, himself had already had part giant genetic DNA. You do not have to single out a fact that Ham married a pure blood son of God. He was the last generation, and by that time there were not any. Noah was 500 years old when he had his three sons. Look at the family tree. The great grand son of Seth was named Cainan. Normally families recycle names. That mixed bloodline could have already started that soon. The sons of God having offspring with Adam's daughters, Seth's daughters, Enos' daughters, and by the time Cainan was born, who he married could already produce these so called giants. Saying that Noah himself could have been larger than average of the first born males since Seth is not out of the question. He did build an ark that was fairly huge, that would have taken a lot of strength or ingenuity for a normal person of today. I doubt you can single out just one son whose wife, alone, was special. The point of Genesis 6 is also that all the sons of God had been corrupted, over many generations. Adam and his bad fruit corrupted the whole of society. It was not the point that the sons of God literally made Adam's flesh better and better. It just means Adam's fallen corruptible genetics had the potential of bearing offspring who could be considered giants through Ham, more than through his two brothers.

I did not call them giants

 

[timtofly]

Are you an offspring of the first man?
The 1000 year reign of Christ shows that man's nature will still be sinful.


Nowhere in the bible does it say that. Of course man's kingdoms and rule will be over. That is wonderful. This business about Adams spawn is another story. There are no people that are not descendants of Adam and Eve. Believers included. We are not going to end. Ever.

Nations will be here and so will the saved nation of Israel be here. Plenty of human flesh all over.

The Tribulation period actually is the period of the greatest blindness of all time.

So what? The continents were together before also and people lived fine on that land mass.

Having fun making stuff up?




To seal up prophesy does not mean whack everyone. I kid you not.

Call the thousand years what you like. I see no reason Adam will not be helping Jesus rule here with us! Forget all of Adam's kids being whacked, He and Eve will likely be here too!

Not sure why you pretend to teach when you do not know what you are talking about?

Word salad.

You seem to be referring to how many people on earth die.



So what? Who cares about the number of people, which we don't know anyhow?


Say what? No one can possibly be saved except those who lose their head?? Why make stuff up? The 144,000 are saved. The witnesses are saved. A multitude so big no man could number it were saved. They were not missing their heads!


.

Utter rubbish. Of course the fools who came to Israel to fight God, inspired to do so by demons will die. That is not everyone on earth! Do you think earth ended at the battle of Waterloo also?

Of course people need to hide. So? How about the saved in that time? Do you think they will be sunbathing and laughing when the hundred pound hailstones fall?

Of those killed in the battle. Not of every man woman and child on planet earth!


Eventually. The first 1000 years shows us it was still not all removed yet though.

Says who? Why do the wicked led by Satan surround the camp of saints at the end of the 1000 years if there is no sin anywhere?

More word salad.

You make up who will be here in the Millennium more than I do.

All those dead have passed from Adam's corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No one is resurrected with a sin nature. If Adam is redeemed, he is no more in his sin nature corruptible body. That is the point of the Second Coming; to eradicate all sin and sin nature. If you want sin to continue, that will be in sheol, with those who enjoy their sin natures.

Give me one verse that claims sinners will be living in the Millennium.

Those people who March against the camp of the saints are only sinners mentally, not by nature. They do not even choose to follow Satan until after the 1000 years have expired. They do not even know Satan until after Satan is released, after the 1000 years is expired.

Adam and Eve were not sinners, when the serpent was tempting Eve in the Garden. Eve was not a sinner because she thought the fruit would make her wise. She became a sinner after Adam ate, and disobeyed God. So those people marching against the camp were not sinners, until they actually did something. They never had the chance to do anything, other than intent, because fire came down and consumed them, before they acted on that intent. You can argue they became more and more intense as they approached. Did they become more of a sinner? Either you are or are not a sinner. There are shades of sin, but not shades of being a sinner. Either you are or you are not. We are currently sinners by birth, not because we think about sin. We dwell on sin, because that is our nature.

In the Millennium no one is born with a sin nature. If they rebel, they are instantly killed, because death is the result of disobedience, not a sinful nature. Right now we have Adam's sinful nature as a result of Adam's disobedience. In the Millennium no one will be allowed to bring sin into the world like Adam did. If you think Jesus is going to just eradicate sin nature, by killing humans the whole 1000 years, how is that any different than killing all of Adam's flesh before the Millennium starts. The only way to shed sin, is destroy this physical body, and place the soul in a permanent incorruptible physical body. Any one who dies in the Millennium, did so to prevent sin and a sin nature from being passed down through corruptible flesh to one's offspring. That is what Isaiah was stating in Isaiah 65. Disobedience is dealt with by death. That is why Death is the last enemy. To prevent sin, one will have to die, for any act of disobedience. That is the same result Adam was given for being disobedient. The difference is that in the Millennium, death is instant, and the soul placed in Death, not allowed to remain a sinner to allow sin to be in the world, like Adam and Eve who passed on sin to all their offspring. A sin nature is not physically genetic. It is the punishment placed on all of creation.

In Genesis 6, it was not genetics that destroyed humanity. It was that all humans did wickedness in God's sight, and only Noah was found righteous. The Bible never claims the other 7 people on the ark were righteous. They were saved, because they got on the ark with Noah. Sin came a long, because all onboard had corruptible physical bodies, affected by the death of Adam and Eve's disobedience. The corruptible body is a body of death, not life. The second birth is spiritual, not physical. During the Millennium, all will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies without death and sin. Jesus will be looking for obedience, not causing the soul to pass from a corruptible body into an incorruptible body as means of conversion.


Many think that the wicked are just allowed to run rampant in this 1000 year period and by the end the majority will just be sinners. What kind of Kingdom is that to hand back to God? You may as well join Amil who claim Christ hands back a literal burnt offering, because the earth is burned to a crisp at the end of the church age. Certainly it will not be like post mill, who think evolving into perfection works, because there is still those billions destroyed at the end, that no one can figure out.

No one can change Revelation 20:7-9 to say anything else:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

God literally does not force angels nor perfect humans to choose God. Obviously if one decides to not choose God, they end up in the Lake of Fire. It is still their choice, and nothing can change that reality.

I am not even going to begin to try to reason out why God even allows Satan or any one to rebel, nor why God allows sin to reign for 6000 years. But I can stand up and declare the Sabbath 1000 year reign is going to be sin free and Satan free. Others can describe it how they like in multiple different theological views. They may even think they have Scripture to back them up. God has allowed those created in His image to reason it all out, wrong or right.

 

[timtofly]

I did not call them giants

That is what the word nephilim means:

Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood.

I called them giants, because in English that is all they were. Nicknaming them does not change the English meaning. They were not a third species of humanoid beings.

They were the offspring of the sons of God, either male or female, and Adam's offspring either male or female. It was a mixture of both males and females on both sides, not a one way exchange. Noah was a direct descendant of Adam, and that is all to the story. No telling how the 4 females figured in, but Ham's wife was no more special than Ham's mom, nor his two other sisters-in-laws.

 

[dad2]

You make up who will be here in the Millennium more than I do.

All those dead have passed from Adam's corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

All of what dead?

No one is resurrected with a sin nature.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Both saved and unsaved do raise from the dead. Only the saved are raised to everlasting life.

If Adam is redeemed, he is no more in his sin nature corruptible body. That is the point of the Second Coming; to eradicate all sin and sin nature. If you want sin to continue, that will be in sheol, with those who enjoy their sin natures.

Right, if Adam did get right with God sometime in his life, he would have been saved.

Give me one verse that claims sinners will be living in the Millennium.

Those people who March against the camp of the saints are only sinners mentally, not by nature.

How does that work? They are not really sinners, yet they 'sin mentally'? What, someone did mind control on them?

They do not even choose to follow Satan until after the 1000 years have expired. They do not even know Satan until after Satan is released, after the 1000 years is expired.

Well, one assumes history will still be taught.

Adam and Eve were not sinners, when the serpent was tempting Eve in the Garden. Eve was not a sinner because she thought the fruit would make her wise. She became a sinner after Adam ate, and disobeyed God. So those people marching against the camp were not sinners, until they actually did something. They never had the chance to do anything, other than intent, because fire came down and consumed them, before they acted on that intent

.

No. They did something. They surrounded the camp of the saints. The only reason they did not kill them was because God stepped in. Just as in the Tribulation.

You can argue they became more and more intense as they approached. Did they become more of a sinner? Either you are or are not a sinner. There are shades of sin, but not shades of being a sinner. Either you are or you are not. We are currently sinners by birth, not because we think about sin. We dwell on sin, because that is our nature.

Well, that final manifestation of evil or some would say sin is the last mention of it. It apparently took that 1000 years to show that even with no demons and a perfect world and government, man would still rebel. Who could question that man needed Jesus after that?

In the Millennium no one is born with a sin nature. If they rebel, they are instantly killed, because death is the result of disobedience,

Well, the hordes of rebels had time to surround the camp of the saints. So I am not sure they were killed instantly?

not a sinful nature. Right now we have Adam's sinful nature as a result of Adam's disobedience. In the Millennium no one will be allowed to bring sin into the world like Adam did. If you think Jesus is going to just eradicate sin nature, by killing humans the whole 1000 years

? Who said any such thing?

, how is that any different than killing all of Adam's flesh before the Millennium starts.

We know there are people (therefore offspring physically of Adam) here when Jesus starts to rule.

The only way to shed sin, is destroy this physical body, and place the soul in a permanent incorruptible physical body. Any one who dies in the Millennium, did so to prevent sin and a sin nature from being passed down through corruptible flesh to one's offspring. That is what Isaiah was stating in Isaiah 65. Disobedience is dealt with by death. That is why Death is the last enemy. To prevent sin, one will have to die, for any act of disobedience.

? So if someone takes an extra scoop of ice cream in the millennium they get whacked?

That is the same result Adam was given for being disobedient. The difference is that in the Millennium, death is instant, and the soul placed in Death, not allowed to remain a sinner to allow sin to be in the world, like Adam and Eve who passed on sin to all their offspring. A sin nature is not physically genetic. It is the punishment placed on all of creation.

Have you a few verses that show death is instant for any mistake in the 1000 year period?

The second birth is spiritual, not physical. During the Millennium, all will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies without death and sin. Jesus will be looking for obedience, not causing the soul to pass from a corruptible body into an incorruptible body as means of conversion.

No. People will still die. It tells us life spans will be so long that if we happen to die at 100 years old we would be considered to be a child.

Many think that the wicked are just allowed to run rampant in this 1000 year period and by the end the majority will just be sinners

. Since God and His angels and His saints are ruling here, I am not sure who would think that.

No one can change Revelation 20:7-9 to say anything else:

Or would want to?

God literally does not force angels nor perfect humans to choose God. Obviously if one decides to not choose God, they end up in the Lake of Fire. It is still their choice, and nothing can change that reality.

OK, does that relate to something you said, such as that no one is left alive when Jesus comes?

 

[timtofly]

All of what dead?



Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Both saved and unsaved do raise from the dead. Only the saved are raised to everlasting life.

Right, if Adam did get right with God sometime in his life, he would have been saved.

How does that work? They are not really sinners, yet they 'sin mentally'? What, someone did mind control on them?

Well, one assumes history will still be taught.

.

No. They did something. They surrounded the camp of the saints. The only reason they did not kill them was because God stepped in. Just as in the Tribulation.



Well, that final manifestation of evil or some would say sin is the last mention of it. It apparently took that 1000 years to show that even with no demons and a perfect world and government, man would still rebel. Who could question that man needed Jesus after that?

Well, the hordes of rebels had time to surround the camp of the saints. So I am not sure they were killed instantly?
? Who said any such thing?


We know there are people (therefore offspring physically of Adam) here when Jesus starts to rule.

? So if someone takes an extra scoop of ice cream in the millennium they get whacked?

Have you a few verses that show death is instant for any mistake in the 1000 year period?

No. People will still die. It tells us life spans will be so long that if we happen to die at 100 years old we would be considered to be a child.


. Since God and His angels and His saints are ruling here, I am not sure who would think that.


Or would want to?

OK, does that relate to something you said, such as that no one is left alive when Jesus comes?

If you think you should drive over the speed limit is that sin?

Do you think speed limits are cruel and excessive controls over one's freedom?

 

[dad2]

If you think you should drive over the speed limit is that sin?

Do you think speed limits are cruel and excessive controls over one's freedom?

I don't think a soccer mom should be led to a firing squad if she went 1 mile an hour over the speed limit.

 

[Two Wings]

I don't think a soccer mom should be led to a firing squad if she went 1 mile an hour over the speed limit.

Right ... most soccer moms should only see that kinda speed as a passenger.

 

[dad2]

Right ... most soccer moms should only see that kinda speed as a passenger.

Whatever they should or should not do, a punishment should be appropriate for the crime.

 

[xlsdraw]

All of what dead?



Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Both saved and unsaved do raise from the dead. Only the saved are raised to everlasting life.

Right, if Adam did get right with God sometime in his life, he would have been saved.

How does that work? They are not really sinners, yet they 'sin mentally'? What, someone did mind control on them?

Well, one assumes history will still be taught.

.

No. They did something. They surrounded the camp of the saints. The only reason they did not kill them was because God stepped in. Just as in the Tribulation.



Well, that final manifestation of evil or some would say sin is the last mention of it. It apparently took that 1000 years to show that even with no demons and a perfect world and government, man would still rebel. Who could question that man needed Jesus after that?

Well, the hordes of rebels had time to surround the camp of the saints. So I am not sure they were killed instantly?
? Who said any such thing?


We know there are people (therefore offspring physically of Adam) here when Jesus starts to rule.

? So if someone takes an extra scoop of ice cream in the millennium they get whacked?

Have you a few verses that show death is instant for any mistake in the 1000 year period?

No. People will still die. It tells us life spans will be so long that if we happen to die at 100 years old we would be considered to be a child.


. Since God and His angels and His saints are ruling here, I am not sure who would think that.


Or would want to?

OK, does that relate to something you said, such as that no one is left alive when Jesus comes?

Thank you for your contributions to this forum.

 

[timtofly]

I don't think a soccer mom should be led to a firing squad if she went 1 mile an hour over the speed limit.

The point is not the punishment of death. The point is how can you control your thoughts. It is easier to rationalize the need to break the law, than to reason the law is for your safety.

So is the Law restrictive enough to make you think all laws are not necessary? Because God told Adam the day you disobey me, you will die. Is God a monster for creating laws, or making death the penalty?

So when God removes sin, as the punishment, because it is easy to justify sin, but hard to justify death, and death is the only penalty, what incentive do we have to break the law?

Especially when every law is for our protection from death.

 

[dad2]

]

The point is not the punishment of death. The point is how can you control your thoughts. It is easier to rationalize the need to break the law, than to reason the law is for your safety.

Having sin under control is not having none

So is the Law restrictive enough to make you think all laws are not necessary? Because God told Adam the day you disobey me, you will die. Is God a monster for creating laws, or making death the penalty?

Yes if they believed the liar rather than God, they would die. That was the clear terms. Not sure why you bring monsters into that.

So when God removes sin, as the punishment, because it is easy to justify sin, but hard to justify death, and death is the only penalty, what incentive do we have to break the law?

People do not sin because of incentive, they sin because they are sinners

Apparently the problem still exists for people on earth till the end of the 1000 years

 

[timtofly]

] Having sin under control is not having none

Yes if they believed the liar rather than God, they would die. That was the clear terms. Not sure why you bring monsters into that.

People do not sin because of incentive, they sin because they are sinners

Apparently the problem still exists for people on earth till the end of the 1000 years

People sin, because sin is in the world as the punishment of Adam's disobedience. God declares sin can be taken out of the world, and thus humans would no longer be sinners. Sin is the punishment, not the driving force of disobedience.

Sin is disobedience that can be justified. Because God gave us corruptible sin nature bodies. The Law given by Moses cannot justify our sin nature. In fact it just amplifies what it means to sin.


The speed limit has two totally different forms. The one can be justified, and constantly broken, that is sin. The other form protects from death, and that is disobedience. Speeding tickets are give to those alive, not those who are dead. One does not die in one form, but pays a fine. If a person died every time they went over the speed limit, no one would be alive.

In the 1000 year reign, sin will be gone. There will be no justification when breaking a law. Disobedience will be instant death. That is the difference between the here and now and reigning with Christ after one is resurrected.


There is a difference between the law of sin and death by sin, and breaking the fundamental laws that creation is based on. Under sin, when a law is broken it can be justified and even atoned for. Without sin, there is no escape from the consequences of breaking a law. Not to mention the fact most laws of creation cannot be broken.

When you can produce the list of laws under this rule of Christ, you can then attempt to prove sin will still exist. Otherwise according to Daniel 9:24, after the 7th Trumpet, sin will no longer exist in the world. The 1000 year reign will be free of Satan and sin. No one will have a corruptible sin nature body.

 

[dad2]

People sin, because sin is in the world as the punishment of Adam's disobedience. God declares sin can be taken out of the world, and thus humans would no longer be sinners. Sin is the punishment, not the driving force of disobedience.

That can't be before the end of the millennium as there are a bunch of murderers running around still then!

Sin is disobedience that can be justified.

? Who made that up? Chapter and verse that says sin can be justified?

The speed limit has two totally different forms. The one can be justified, and constantly broken, that is sin. The other form protects from death, and that is disobedience. Speeding tickets are give to those alive, not those who are dead. One does not die in one form, but pays a fine. If a person died every time they went over the speed limit, no one would be alive.

Great, so who is getting a ticket when and where in your little story?

In the 1000 year reign, sin will be gone. There will be no justification when breaking a law. Disobedience will be instant death. That is the difference between the here and now and reigning with Christ after one is resurrected.

Except you made up that definition of sin. It seems to me that when a huge gang is running around surrounding and trying to kill the saints that is sin.

There is a difference between the law of sin and death by sin, and breaking the fundamental laws that creation is based on. Under sin, when a law is broken it can be justified and even atoned for. Without sin, there is no escape from the consequences of breaking a law. Not to mention the fact most laws of creation cannot be broken.

Sinners don't escape either. So? Only by the blood of Jesus do we escape. Not because we did not break some silly speed limit!

When you can produce the list of laws under this rule of Christ, you can then attempt to prove sin will still exist.

No need. WE already know mass murdering saints is wrong!

Otherwise according to Daniel 9:24, after the 7th Trumpet, sin will no longer exist in the world. The 1000 year reign will be free of Satan and sin. No one will have a corruptible sin nature body.

The Jewish people will be saved and so their sin will end. Jesus will return, and bring in everlasting righteousness. Part of that process is the 1000 years. For the people down on earth, it still will not have reached perfection or righteousness at the end of that 1000 years.

 

[Cathode]

The First Seal : “ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.“

The gay agenda conquered the highest institutions using the symbol of the rainbow, originally God’s Sign for all the Earth.