When is/was/will the 1st seal be opened?

[Two Wings]

Noah and family were taken up in the waters.

yes, but they died a physical death to which we are all appointed who are not living at the point of the rapture.

Not sure what that means. All of His people will be Raptured. They won't be here in the Trib to do anything. There will be 2 witnesses, and 144,000 Jews and angels preaching to them. We are gone. Now even if you were correct and the Rapture was mid point in the Tribulation, all the new converts in that time would also be Raptured, leaving us in the same situation.

I recognize you understand a pre-trib rapture. I did too. for 40 some odd years. But I understand that is incorrect based upon the account in Luke of "one taken, one left" Chap 17 IIRC ... "where'd they go?" ... Jesus said "where the corpse is, there the vultures will be." That's NOT being 'caught-up' to meet Him in the air.

The parable of the wheat and tares ... if the tares are taken first, to where they will become the feast for the vultures in the valley of Meggido ... are they suspended for over 7 years (period of tribulation) ... or is it a rapid sequence of "tares taken, sign of the Son of Man in the sky, Church raptured, Wrath of The Lamb" seem to be more likely? If the latter, then it seems the rapture is just prior to the Wrath of The Lamb ... as Matt 24 indicates.

The Hebrews were protected by the blood of the Lamb.

that was the Passover ... the last plague immediately before the Hebrews were removed from Egypt. The previous 6 plagues occurred while the Hebrews were STILL in Egypt, but protected from the plagues in the district known as Goshen.

The witnesses will be doing miracles selectively clobbering the wicked. Calling down a fire strike from heaven any time they feel like it. Changing the weather totally any time they feel a need. Etc.The locusts from the pit, remember only hurt the wicked as well. The plague of deadly sores on those who take the mark are, obviously, also on the wicked only. Etc.

true ... in the 2nd half of the tribulation. Actually, I forgot about this resurrection ... The Two Witnesses are "called up" which, I think, starts this sequence just prior to the Wrath of The Lamb.

I think one could be in the company of a "tare" (nephilim) ... when this sequence begins, that tare vanishes in front of you ... you'll have about enough time to recognize what just happened and start grinning. Then the 1 Cor 15:52 change in an instant, fall into trail formation of those who died in Christ before you, and meet CHRIST in the air.

The verse before the one talking about great famine makes it clear the context is the world rather than selective poor nations.

Right ... my comment wasn't exclusive to "poor nations" ... I'm simply suggesting that the day's wage for a loaf of bread may not be simultaneous everywhere.

Since it is my understanding that the taking away into the air of believers is before the wrath, I guess it is not a real concern as to how long after the Rapture the wicked take to get it together.

I agree with the first line. But when the rapture happens, time's up. Jesus finishes the battle of Armageddon which is already underway at His Second Coming.

The time that Jesus told people in Jerusalem to flee was after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was set up. That was not 70 AD.

Peter recorded in Acts not a Believer was killed when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. That happened because the Believers knew from the words of Jesus His prophesy of the Temple. "not a stone will be left unturned" sums to 40 in Hebrew (according to my Hebrew scholar friend) ... said in 30 AD ... that told them that Jerusalem wasn't the place to be in 70AD

Daniel's referenced by The Master abomination of chapter 12 happened in 691 AD ... the dome of the rock on Temple Mount. (there are at least 2 abominations)

They are the ones who that warning to flee when they see the abomination is for.

I've recently learned about the Triune God occupying The 3rd Temple ... Ez 43 ... Jesus will walk past the high priest, who'll see the man with scars in His hands ... and realize. Shortly thereafter antichrist will enter the Temple to declare himself to be God ... high priest will say ~"nuh uh, He was here a little bit ago" ... then that's when he goes bonkers and Jacob's Troubles begin. It's also when the remnant of Israel is taken to the prepared place on two wings of a great eagle.

 

[dad2]

yes, but they died a physical death to which we are all appointed who are not living at the point of the rapture.

The dead in Christ shall rise first. So there is death involved.

I recognize you understand a pre-trib rapture. I did too. for 40 some odd years. But I understand that is incorrect based upon the account in Luke of "one taken, one left" Chap 17 IIRC ... "where'd they go?"

Luke 17:30
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luke 17:31
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luke 17:32
Remember Lot's wife.
Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


So when is the time Jesus will be revealed? When will every eye see Him? I thought that the Rapture was when we see Him. Not everyone. How else could they explain our disappearance as something other than what happened if everyone saw Jesus? Then we might ask what happens when He returns to earth and everyone does see Him? Is there another Rapture of the new believers that came to believe since the Rapture? Why not!? Obviously the wicked would be left behind and we do know a lot of them will be called to that great supper for the vultures at that time. So maybe that is what it is talking about. That would involve them being caught up just like we were. Why not?

The parable of the wheat and tares ... if the tares are taken first, to where they will become the feast for the vultures in the valley of Meggido .

No. The tares are vulture food.

that was the Passover ... the last plague immediately before the Hebrews were removed from Egypt. The previous 6 plagues occurred while the Hebrews were STILL in Egypt, but protected from the plagues in the district known as Goshen.

Not sure who made the exodus some great prophesy of the end? Jesus never mentioned that did He? In the exodus there was just one group and the Egyptians. In the end time there is the dead in Christ, the church, the wicked followers of the beast, the new believers in the Trib who get saved, the Jews who are wicked and invaded, and the saved Jews of the remnant in the very end. So you need to be careful what is what and what you are trying to make fit the exodus. The end time is not a one size fits all. Nor will God deliver people from the AntiChrist until He kills the guy Himself.

true ... in the 2nd half of the tribulation. Actually, I forgot about this resurrection ... The Two Witnesses are "called up" which, I think, starts this sequence just prior to the Wrath of The Lamb.

There we go! Who knows, maybe that is the same time as when all new believers are Raptured?!

I think one could be in the company of a "tare" (nephilim) ... when this sequence begins, that tare vanishes in front of you ... you'll have about enough time to recognize what just happened and start grinning. Then the 1 Cor 15:52 change in an instant, fall into trail formation of those who died in Christ before you, and meet CHRIST in the air.

The tares are not going anywhere. It won't be the wicked vanishing.

Right ... my comment wasn't exclusive to "poor nations" ... I'm simply suggesting that the day's wage for a loaf of bread may not be simultaneous everywhere.

People are dying of fear in those days for the things coming on the earth. In those same days we see waters turned into blood and etc etc. That was not WW2.

I agree with the first line. But when the rapture happens, time's up. Jesus finishes the battle of Armageddon which is already underway at His Second Coming.

So when do we go to the marriage supper with Jesus in heaven? Did you think that was after the second coming of Jesus to rule the earth? In Rev 19 it has the supper already done before the armies gather together!

Peter recorded in Acts not a Believer was killed when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. That happened because the Believers knew from the words of Jesus His prophesy of the Temple. "not a stone will be left unturned" sums to 40 in Hebrew (according to my Hebrew scholar friend) ... said in 30 AD ... that told them that Jerusalem wasn't the place to be in 70AD

If true, and some heeded the warning for the end time in history, and the result was good, then great. Nevertheless the abomination Daniel spoke of was not there at that time.

Daniel's referenced by The Master abomination of chapter 12 happened in 691 AD ... the dome of the rock on Temple Mount. (there are at least 2 abominations)

No possibility that is true.

I've recently learned about the Triune God occupying The 3rd Temple ... Ez 43 ... Jesus will walk past the high priest, who'll see the man with scars in His hands ... and realize. Shortly thereafter antichrist will enter the Temple to declare himself to be God ... high priest will say ~"nuh uh, He was here a little bit ago" ... then that's when he goes bonkers and Jacob's Troubles begin. It's also when the remnant of Israel is taken to the prepared place on two wings of a great eagle.

Now you ventured out to la la land. You have Jesus returning before He returns!

 

[Two Wings]

The dead in Christ shall rise first. So there is death involved.

right ... but there are two men who have yet died ... Elijah and Enoch.

At the rapture, there'll be the Believers who have yet died, too. they are "changed in an instant" as Paul described.

So when is the time Jesus will be revealed? When will every eye see Him? I thought that the Rapture was when we see Him. Not everyone. How else could they explain our disappearance as something other than what happened if everyone saw Jesus? Then we might ask what happens when He returns to earth and everyone does see Him? Is there another Rapture of the new believers that came to believe since the Rapture? Why not!? Obviously the wicked would be left behind and we do know a lot of them will be called to that great supper for the vultures at that time. So maybe that is what it is talking about. That would involve them being caught up just like we were. Why not?

I'd need a reference which indicates/outright says people are wandering around wondering what happened to their friends/family/etc. I think that's a LaHay/Jenkins narrative license in "Left Behind."

I think there is ONE Rapture at the end, just prior to the Wrath of The Lamb.

I think the parable of the wheat and tares tells us those taken first are NOT The Chosen, but the enemies of God; the nephilim. See, the Flood was brought to destroy all but one of the nephilim. Noah was perfect in his generation; perfectly human. Virtually everyone else was a nephilim ... their existence was purposed to defoul the bloodline of Christ and prevent His being born/raised into a man

Luke 17:37 ... yes ... that's the passage which tells us the first vanishing is of God's enemies being taken to be slaughtered (the winepress); food for the vultures as Rev 19:18 describes (and Ez 39:20)

No. The tares are vulture food.

I agree ... and that happens just before the rapture, methinks.

There we go! Who knows, maybe that is the same time as when all new believers are Raptured?!

I think there is but one Rapture.

The tares are not going anywhere. It won't be the wicked vanishing.

the parable of the wheat/tares clearly show they are taken first ... before the harvest.

So when do we go to the marriage supper with Jesus in heaven? Did you think that was after the second coming of Jesus to rule the earth? In Rev 19 it has the supper already done before the armies gather together!

I think there are two events here ... the Wrath of The Lamb, ending Armageddon ... THEN the 7 year wedding feast/Bema seat in Heaven ... on earth the cleanup of Israel using the "bows/arrows as fuel" for 7 years Ez 39:9. The Second Coming when Christ splits the earth at His landing upon the Mt. of Olives.

If true, and some heeded the warning for the end time in history, and the result was good, then great. Nevertheless the abomination Daniel spoke of was not there at that time.

sorry got my wires crossed typing ... Josephus recorded no Christian was killed in the Titus raid on Jerusalem in 70AD ... that happened because they were aware and were prepared.

No possibility that is true.

IDK why not ... a brief study of the DOR demonstrates the blasphemy against Jesus on it's wall inscriptions ... it stands in the holy place. it was completed exactly as Daniel prophesied. The DOR would have been ~1100 years in the future for Daniel, so is partly why he said he didn't "savvy" in chap 12.

Now you ventured out to la la land. You have Jesus returning before He returns!

Ezekiel stated his vision. Unless the event went unrecorded for the 2nd Temple .. this happens at some point where there's a high priest in the Temple ... and the rage of antichrist is then understandable when rejected in his claim to be God because the high priest just witnessed Messiah. "a little bit ago."

I know ... I don't quite know what to make of this yet either ... but la la land from our understanding is easily in the "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived of the things of God." 1 Cor 2:9


thanks! you've given me more to ponder and pray.!

 

[dad2]

right ... but there are two men who have yet died ... Elijah and Enoch.

At the rapture, there'll be the Believers who have yet died, too. they are "changed in an instant" as Paul described.

By the end of the 7 years there are multitudes who were killed and who have died. Not just the 2 witnesses. The witnesses were protected until the very end and had powers from God to slay the wicked.

I'd need a reference which indicates/outright says people are wandering around wondering what happened to their friends/family/etc. I think that's a LaHay/Jenkins narrative license in "Left Behind."

No reference needed. Only some people are taken so that means the ones not taken will not know where the ones who disappeared are.

I think there is ONE Rapture at the end, just prior to the Wrath of The Lamb.

Since His church (Bride) are not appointed to wrath, and the Trib is wrath, I do not see how the church (which is not mentioned after chapter 4) would be here in the wrath.

I think the parable of the wheat and tares tells us those taken first are NOT The Chosen, but the enemies of God; the nephilim.

? You think the wicked get taken up and believers get left??

See, the Flood was brought to destroy all but one of the nephilim.

That is not in the bible. The flood was to destroy man kind.

Noah was perfect in his generation; perfectly human. Virtually everyone else was a nephilim

No. Not sure who made that up, it is nonsense.

Luke 17:37 ... yes ... that's the passage which tells us the first vanishing is of God's enemies being taken to be slaughtered (the winepress); food for the vultures as Rev 19:18 describes (and Ez 39:20)

Just because some dead people are in a field being disposed of by birds does not mean they were taken anywhere. They were killed. That is the final fate of the wicked.

I think there is but one Rapture.

Well, at the end of the 1000 years fire destroys the enemies of the new saints from that time. One assumes God takes them up also. That is a rapture. Then there are the new saints in the Trib, is there some reason you claim they will not be raised up? After all we know that there is a multitude who were killed in the tribulation that are in heaven already. How would they not also come for their bodies as we did? (the dead in Christ). Then there are the remnant of saved Jews who live in Israel as they were promised to be restored to that land. After the 1000 years are over the whole earth is burned up (at least the surface) and made new. Those Jews have to be taken up also if they are to live!

the parable of the wheat/tares clearly show they are taken first ... before the harvest.

The ones being eaten by birds were taken nowhere. The church is taken up along with the dead believers in Christ also. Later there are the new believers from the Trib, and still later the new believers in the millennium and the Jews who are saved. So none of that is the wicked getting taken up anywhere. They will not be going up.

I think there are two events here ... the Wrath of The Lamb, ending Armageddon ... THEN the 7 year wedding feast/Bema seat in Heaven ... on earth the cleanup of Israel using the "bows/arrows as fuel" for 7 years Ez 39:9. The Second Coming when Christ splits the earth at His landing upon the Mt. of Olives.

Except that, as pointed out, the marriage supper is before the nations gather in the end. No one said it lasted 7 years either.

sorry got my wires crossed typing ... Josephus recorded no Christian was killed in the Titus raid on Jerusalem in 70AD ... that happened because they were aware and were prepared.

OK. That makes sense.

IDK why not ... a brief study of the DOR demonstrates the blasphemy against Jesus on it's wall inscriptions ... it stands in the holy place. it was completed exactly as Daniel prophesied. The DOR would have been ~1100 years in the future for Daniel, so is partly why he said he didn't "savvy" in chap 12.

No. The 42 months or a year and years and half a year, or 1260 days did not start then. It does start when Daniels abomination is set up. That means it was not in 70ad.

Ezekiel stated his vision. Unless the event went unrecorded for the 2nd Temple .. this happens at some point where there's a high priest in the Temple ... and the rage of antichrist is then understandable when rejected in his claim to be God because the high priest just witnessed Messiah. "a little bit ago."

Chapter and verse?

I know ... I don't quite know what to make of this yet either ... but la la land from our understanding is easily in the "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived of the things of God." 1 Cor 2:9


thanks! you've given me more to ponder and pray.!

Cheers. If I am wrong I owe you a beer in New Jerusalem I guess.

 

[Two Wings]

By the end of the 7 years there are multitudes who were killed and who have died. Not just the 2 witnesses. The witnesses were protected until the very end and had powers from God to slay the wicked.

yessir ...I agree, there are many killed ... because they claim Jesus. I think the one world religion will require all to worship God --- in whatever name they might assign ... except ONE. Jesus. That will be considered idol worship and idolatry will be punishable by beheading. I was using the example of the Two Witnesses as an expected time/sequence not as exclusive casualties.

No reference needed. Only some people are taken so that means the ones not taken will not know where the ones who disappeared are.

This presumes there is a marked amount of time between the rapture and the Wrath of the Lamb. If there are but perhaps minutes (as I kinda expect), there won't be much time to wander around wondering.

Since His church (Bride) are not appointed to wrath, and the Trib is wrath, I do not see how the church (which is not mentioned after chapter 4) would be here in the wrath.

Not appointed to God's wrath, that's correct (1 Thess 5). But I think there's a distinction which needs to be made --- the dragon's wrath is real, too. The church has been persecuted from the (restrained) wrath of the dragon/Satan since its creation. But in THAT period, post abomination in the Temple, the restraint will be completely removed. (2 Thess 2) Those not called home themselves will be among the Saints who will become the Overcomers in that period because of the Holy Spirit's work. John 14:12 "... and greater things than these will you do." (Jesus) ... Daniel 11:32 "...those who know their God will do exploits."

You think the wicked get taken up and believers get left??

This is what the parable of the wheat and tares tell us. Matt 13. The tares are gathered before the harvest. bundled and burned IIRC. destroyed. I think this juxtaposed to the Matt 24/Luke 17 account of one taken one left ... you don't want to be taken at this point. You want to remain. For if you are taken ... you are deposited in the valley of Meggido ... to become the blood/carnage to the level of the horses bridle in the 200 mile valley. Rev 14. that much carnage doesn't happen by a random gathering of people ... it'll be a purposeful gathering of the "tares" which preceded the 1 Thess 4: 16-17 rapture.

No. Not sure who made that up, it is nonsense.

Consider this ... the nephilim were the men of renown, right? Gen 6. After the Flood, Gen 9:22 ... Ham is identified as the father of Canaan. Ham's wife was a nephilim for we know what became of the Canannites ... the Joshua led Hebrews defeated them with the aid of The Son preincarnate (Ex 23 ... what angel can forgive sin?)

I know ... it rocks the nice little Sunday School story of the critters and the rainbow. Highly recommend a trip to Williamstown, KY and visit thearkencounter.com

Well, at the end of the 1000 years fire destroys the enemies of the new saints from that time.

there's only one enemy at that point ... the dragon/Satan. I won't do too much supposing about the millennium ... as long as I can have my house in order before the shaking begins, I'll take the orders as given by The Master and marvel at the lion and the lamb laying in the same pasture.

The ones being eaten by birds were taken nowhere.

addressed above. they are taken to their slaughter by The Lamb.

the marriage supper is before the nations gather in the end.

yeah ... OK ... I see what you mean. but there remains the 7 year cleanup of the valley the saved Israelites are commanded to do after Armageddon. I thought the wedding feast/bema seat were 7 years, but I'm drawing a blank on the reference.

Chapter and verse?

of God's occupying the 3rd Temple ... Ez 43.

vv 1-4 ... The Father's Shekinah Glory
v 5 ... The Holy Spirit
v 6 ... The Son ... Jesus

 

[dad2]

This presumes there is a marked amount of time between the rapture and the Wrath of the Lamb. If there are but perhaps minutes (as I kinda expect), there won't be much time to wander around wondering.

Yes if we are not appointed to that wrath, there is time.

Not appointed to God's wrath, that's correct (1 Thess 5). But I think there's a distinction which needs to be made --- the dragon's wrath is real, too.

We know that is not the wrath in question because people have faced Satan all through history. The wrath of God, however is the real McCoy and it is so terrible that God spares His Bride from it.

The church has been persecuted from the (restrained) wrath of the dragon/Satan since its creation. But in THAT period, post abomination in the Temple, the restraint will be completely removed. (2 Thess 2) Those not called home themselves will be among the Saints who will become the Overcomers in that period because of the Holy Spirit's work. John 14:12 "... and greater things than these will you do." (Jesus) ... Daniel 11:32 "...those who know their God will do exploits."

We should remember that Satan works for God. Satan is allowed to have a period on earth to test people, and etc. That is all part of the wrath of God.

This is what the parable of the wheat and tares tell us. Matt 13. The tares are gathered before the harvest. bundled and burned IIRC. destroyed.

In that case they are not taken in the air, they are merely set aside from God's people so that they can be killed. It is God that people should fear.

I think this juxtaposed to the Matt 24/Luke 17 account of one taken one left ... you don't want to be taken at this point. You want to remain. For if you are taken ... you are deposited in the valley of Meggido

No. The folks that gather there go of their own accord. They gather. They are not transported magically like start trek.Unclean spirits inspire/deceive them into going. The poor sods actually think they have some chance of fighting the Almighty! That is how deceived they will be.

... to become the blood/carnage to the level of the horses bridle in the 200 mile valley. Rev 14. that much carnage doesn't happen by a random gathering of people ... it'll be a purposeful gathering of the "tares" which preceded the 1 Thess 4: 16-17 rapture.

No. It is not angels gathering that crowd. It is devils. Unclean spirits. They are not supernaturally transported there. They arrive on horses and chariots etc.

Consider this ... the nephilim were the men of renown, right? Gen 6. After the Flood, Gen 9:22 ... Ham is identified as the father of Canaan. Ham's wife was a nephilim for we know what became of the Canannites ... the Joshua led Hebrews defeated them with the aid of The Son preincarnate (Ex 23 ... what angel can forgive sin?)

You know Ham married a giant, or a person born from a union of the sons of god and women...how?

I know ... it rocks the nice little Sunday School story of the critters and the rainbow. Highly recommend a trip to Williamstown, KY and visit thearkencounter.com

I have often heard that old story about how the reason God sent the flood was to rid us of some bad race of sort of aliens. Nonsense. The flood came because of sin.

there's only one enemy at that point ... the dragon/Satan. I won't do too much supposing about the millennium ... as long as I can have my house in order before the shaking begins, I'll take the orders as given by The Master and marvel at the lion and the lamb laying in the same pasture.

No. They surround the camp of those new millennial saints. So there are many. Satan was loosed for a bit again to do what he does best, deceive people.

yeah ... OK ... I see what you mean. but there remains the 7 year cleanup of the valley the saved Israelites are commanded to do after Armageddon. I thought the wedding feast/bema seat were 7 years, but I'm drawing a blank on the reference.

I see no verse that says Christ needs 7 years to judge the nations! Probably take closer to seven minutes than seven years!

of God's occupying the 3rd Temple ... Ez 43.

What verse in that chapter shows it is a third temple?

 

[Two Wings]

Yes if we are not appointed to that wrath, there is time.

well, this is what I'm trying to advise. The pre-trib rapture is a deception. Introduced circa 1830 and preached mightily by Darby. So ... consider ... Satan doesn't know the day nor the hour either, but is it possible he knows the season already? Did he know the 3 month period a thousand years ago? he knows The Word, after all. sought to temp Jesus with His own Word.

So ... assuming for a second ... 2026/27 is a legitimate end to man's dominion of the planet (well, actually it'd happen 3.5 years prior, right?) ... that 26/27 holds The Day of The Lord ... and that 2 Thess 2 tells us the restrainer is removed. That means the Church's persecution has been under restraint ... but will be "unbridled" for up to 42 months (cut short for the elect, right?). How many years would a philosophy take to become fully endorsed just by tradition? How many more years would it take for that philosophy to be re-examined because it's 'that' old?

would 197 years be about the heart of the envelope? Long enough to become tradition, but new enough to avoid re-examination due to being ancient?

We know that is not the wrath in question because people have faced Satan all through history. The wrath of God, however is the real McCoy and it is so terrible that God spares His Bride from it.

true ... but Satan has been restrained. The restrainer gets removed ... gradually I think. I suggest removal has been happening for the last few years given the absolute loss of rationality in our public discourse ... endorsing social constructs which were unfathomable just a few presidents ago.

We should remember that Satan works for God. Satan is allowed to have a period on earth to test people, and etc. That is all part of the wrath of God.

first sentence; totally agree. Great reminder. Last sentence? only in that it is allowed, but not caused. God's wrath IS the "real deal" as you say. For that the Church will be gone ... ALL of the Church will be taken out of this world (which reminds me; John 17 ... Jesus' intercession for us ... "... not that you take them out of this world but protect them from the Evil One." Why would He say that if we were going to be raptured out before the tribulation?

In that case they are not taken in the air, they are merely set aside from God's people so that they can be killed. It is God that people should fear.

right ... not "raptured" ... but definitely gathered ... just as the parable illustrates. ...

They are not transported magically like start trek.

I think this is precisely what is going to happen. The Spirit took Philip to evangelize the Ethiopian Eunuch AND BACK ... why wouldn't the angels be charged to gather the tares first?

You know Ham married a giant, or a person born from a union of the sons of god and women...how?

I didn't say he married a giant. Not all nephilim were 18' tall (See Exodus 23/24) ... because he fathered Canaan. Since he is described in Gen 6 with Noah and his mother as being perfect/righteous (physically), the only way Canaan fathers 7 tribes of nephilim giants is by someone on the Ark ... being a nephilim. I don't want to make more of this than necessary. the nephilim existed back in the day ... and continue to , just as The Word tells us in Genesis.

The flood came because of sin.

in those nephilim who have no soul ... they receive only from their father, Satan. Their sole purpose in life is to conspire to kill God's creation/heirs.

No

perhaps I'm misunderstanding but during the millennium when Christ reigns on the post armageddon planet, there's peace. the nephilim destroyed. the antichrist & false prophet cast into the lake of fire ... then satan bound for 1000.

I see no verse that says Christ needs 7 years to judge the nations!

true. The Exodus 23 angel didn't need a year to destroy all the giants, but that's what He took.

I think the idea is that the typical Jewish wedding feast lasted 7 days ... one week. 7 years ... like the Dan 9:27 confirmed covenant for one week (7 years) ... and the simultaneous 7 years outright declared in Ez 39 for the "cleanup" operation.

What verse in that chapter shows it is a third temple?

I don't know that it specifies the 3rd Temple ... but given it'd certainly have been reported were it the 2nd ... it seems reasonable to understand this is the 3rd Temple Ezekiel saw and measured the wall between the holy and the profane thing (e.g. the abomination of 691AD; the DOR) ... then John was taken to see the same and measured all but the outer court ... where the profane thing is.

---dad2 ... I get a lot of stuff mixed-up. I get stuff wrong. But this is why I appreciate the continued study and presentation. You've helped me realize I've beamed off on a couple things ... but I also recognize some of the things I accepted because I was taught ... ain't so.

So, I pledge to keep it iron-sharpening iron ... cause I'm not "all that and a bag of chips" brother.

Press on!

 

[dad2]

well, this is what I'm trying to advise. The pre-trib rapture is a deception. Introduced circa 1830 and preached mightily by Darby. So ... consider ... Satan doesn't know the day nor the hour either, but is it possible he knows the season already? Did he know the 3 month period a thousand years ago? he knows The Word, after all. sought to temp Jesus with His own Word.

So ... assuming for a second ... 2026/27 is a legitimate end to man's dominion of the planet (well, actually it'd happen 3.5 years prior, right?) ... that 26/27 holds The Day of The Lord ... and that 2 Thess 2 tells us the restrainer is removed. That means the Church's persecution has been under restraint ... but will be "unbridled" for up to 42 months (cut short for the elect, right?). How many years would a philosophy take to become fully endorsed just by tradition? How many more years would it take for that philosophy to be re-examined because it's 'that' old?

would 197 years be about the heart of the envelope? Long enough to become tradition, but new enough to avoid re-examination due to being ancient?

This seems to make no sense to me. Maybe gather your thoughts and post them in a concise, cohesive way?

true ... but Satan has been restrained. The restrainer gets removed ... gradually I think. I suggest removal has been happening for the last few years given the absolute loss of rationality in our public discourse ... endorsing social constructs which were unfathomable just a few presidents ago.

In other words God lets man see what sort of god he has chosen in order to separate the remaining sheep from the goats. The universe gets to see what happens when people reject God.

first sentence; totally agree. Great reminder. Last sentence? only in that it is allowed, but not caused. God's wrath IS the "real deal" as you say. For that the Church will be gone ... ALL of the Church will be taken out of this world (which reminds me; John 17 ... Jesus' intercession for us ... "... not that you take them out of this world but protect them from the Evil One." Why would He say that if we were going to be raptured out before the tribulation?

Because He knew we were going to be here a long time. So He sent help. (His Spirit) When the Rapture happens that is Jesus taking us out, not the Father!

right ... not "raptured" ... but definitely gathered ... just as the parable illustrates. ...

Right, but that is not talking about all people on earth coming to Armageddon. (or being transported there etc)

I think this is precisely what is going to happen. The Spirit took Philip to evangelize the Ethiopian Eunuch AND BACK ... why wouldn't the angels be charged to gather the tares first?

Name one wicked person in the bible that this happened to? Name any verse that says all the world will be transported by God to Israel?

I didn't say he married a giant. Not all nephilim were 18' tall (See Exodus 23/24) ... because he fathered Canaan. Since he is described in Gen 6 with Noah and his mother as being perfect/righteous (physically), the only way Canaan fathers 7 tribes of nephilim giants is by someone on the Ark .

I do not know what you are talking about. How would that be the only way? Lots of people fathered and mothered many many tribes. Does that make them 'neppies' too?

.. being a nephilim. I don't want to make more of this than necessary. the nephilim existed back in the day ... and continue to , just as The Word tells us in Genesis.

Lots of people existed. So?

in those nephilim who have no soul ... they receive only from their father, Satan.

?? You seem to be assuming that the angels that had babies with women were all evil? Even if that were the case, does that mean all their children and children's children would be evil too? We have something called choice, you know. Babies are from God! If women had babies who can declare them all soulless and evil??

Their sole purpose in life is to conspire to kill God's creation/heirs.

You seem to confuse the bible with scifi.

perhaps I'm misunderstanding but during the millennium when Christ reigns on the post armageddon planet, there's peace. the nephilim destroyed. the antichrist & false prophet cast into the lake of fire ... then satan bound for 1000.

You dreamed up that neppie business. The bible mentions no such thing in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Total fantasy.

true. The Exodus 23 angel didn't need a year to destroy all the giants, but that's what He took.

I looked at that chapter and saw zero mention of any neppies. Sorry. That is fantasy.

I think the idea is that the typical Jewish wedding feast lasted 7 days ... one week. 7 years ... like the Dan 9:27 confirmed covenant for one week (7 years) ... and the simultaneous 7 years outright declared in Ez 39 for the "cleanup" operation.

A typical Jewish party really has no great meaning. Sorry. The cleaning up after all that war and trouble is a great thing. Of course in that area it will take years to do it. So?

I don't know that it specifies the 3rd Temple

So why say it was?

... but given it'd certainly have been reported were it the 2nd ... it seems reasonable to understand this is the 3rd Temple Ezekiel saw and measured the wall between the holy and the profane thing (e.g. the abomination of 691AD; the DOR) ... then John was taken to see the same and measured all but the outer court ... where the profane thing is.

? John was taken to a temple? Chapter and verse? Whatever abomination may have existed in 691 AD does not matter. Nothing to do with the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

---dad2 ... I get a lot of stuff mixed-up. I get stuff wrong. But this is why I appreciate the continued study and presentation. You've helped me realize I've beamed off on a couple things ... but I also recognize some of the things I accepted because I was taught ... ain't so.

We are all a work in progress.

So, I pledge to keep it iron-sharpening iron ... cause I'm not "all that and a bag of chips" brother.

Press on!

Thanks.

 

[1689Dave]

Says you. Millions disagree. Me too.

“THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

Why would we care about having a body part modified?

Circumcision made one a Jew and a physical member of Israel. Jesus abolished the rite. This means biblical Jews and Israel do not exist today. The Church of believers, circumcised in heart, is Israel.

 

[1689Dave]

“THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

Why do people have so much trouble reading Revelation? It's because the Jesuits placed it in the futuristic tense to remove the Papacy from the charge made by Protestants of being the Antichrist. If they could place him into the future, instead of the present, nobody would suspect him being the man of sin.

So any futurist interpretation of Revelation comes from them and not from John the Revelator.

Why can't people see any fulfillment in the prophecies? Because they look for the symbols to appear instead of what the symbols represent. Look around, it is all happening before our eyes, and has been.

 

[Two Wings]

Maybe gather your thoughts and post them in a concise, cohesive way?

addressing the teaching of the pre-trib rapture.

*It became "mainstream" after Darby in 1830ish ... and an English girl had a dream about it IIRC (trying to be concise)
*Matt 24 - deceive many, even the elect. If the prince of persia was so motivated to withstand Gabriel, why WOULDN'T he introduce a deception about the timing of the rapture?

ah ... now I see. My apologies (see, I told you I needed grace!) 2026/27 ... new info here. I haven't presented for your consideration we CAN now know the year/12 month period which contains The Day of The Lord ... as Daniel was told those in the end would be given understanding. Robert Mawire "Chronogram Code" written in 2011. Fascinating guide through The Word. He's on YouTube ... his testimony.

In other words God lets man

I don't understand how you have understood random chance from the comment I used with 2 Thess 2 as my reference about the restrainer. No of course not. God orchestrates the steps. I'm saying the increasing irrationality, the increased division, the increased hatred ... is a product of the restrainer being removed. The restrainer who's been holding-back Satan for all these years. We've seen some wicked stuff in the last 2000 years ... it's gonna pale in comparison to the last 3.5 when the restraint is completely removed.

Because He knew we were going to be here a long time. So He sent help. (His Spirit) When the Rapture happens that is Jesus taking us out, not the Father!

OK ... another misunderstanding. I'm not saying Jesus doesn't rapture us. I'm addressing John 17:15 in "The High Priestly Prayer." Jesus interceded for us ... specifically asking that we not be taken out of this world. The Father sends The Son, right? Only The Father knows the day/hour. God took Elijah and Enoch out this world ... I understand this part of Jesus' prayer as one to keep us in the world, not of it, and from the evil one while we are in it and not of it ... until Jesus is sent to Return.

Right, but that is not talking about all people on earth coming to Armageddon.

Correct ... not ALL people on the earth. I believe this reference of gathering is of the existing nephilim at the time. (a whole nuther thread can be started on the "neppies" as you say but for this one can we agree that they exist today as Gen 6 tells "in those days and also afterward" ... given we are in the afterward)

full Humans will be left in place. Those who have their spirit breathed back to life --- assuredly in Jesus' hand (John 10:28-29) the double minded as well as the surrendered to Jesus ... as well as those who are alive and have rejected Jesus and His Gospel. All 3 conditions of a man: Natural Man (1 Cor 2:14), Worldly Christian (1 Cor 3:1-3), Spiritual Christian (Gal 2:20) will remain for a period after this gathering of the nephilim.

I think the period between this gathering and the rapture is short because ... all the "neppies" in the valley of Meggido aren't gonna stay there very long after they recover from their disorientation. That's Al's conjecture, but I think it's reasonable. Perhaps it's not.

Name any verse that says all the world will be transported by God to Israel?

I'm only using this vanishing/gathering as a star trek transporter because you used the term (and I like it, will use it again, thanks!). Again, I'm not saying "all the world's population" will be transported to Israel. All the world's existing nephilim ... who are kings/captains (CEOs et al) ... not humble servants.

Lots of people existed. So?

this was intended to distinguish between who gets gathered and who gets raptured. And from the parable, we know the gathering occurs first. So ... you WANT to be left behind during THAT event. Don't wanna miss the rapture! I agree there! but there's gonna be a crazy wild demonstration PRIOR to the rapture. A non-believer with a nephilim when he's 'gathered' will cause confusion. Shoot, it'll prob confuse a lotta "wheat" too ... for those who are spiritually prepared and have the knowledge (Hosea 4:6) ... THAT "wheat" will have about enough time to recognize what just happened and start grinning ... it's "go home time!"

You seem to be assuming ?

There has been one "immaculate conception" which wasn't evil. The rest of 'em ... evil. Perhaps not hollywood monster goul and 18' tall, but evil nonetheless. I'm gonna reference a teaching by islam, so bear with me ... taqiyya. lying/deceiving to promote islam. There's a lotta taqiyya happening in the muslim community around the world (where they are the minority) ... and of those who are fundamentalists (they have their back sliders, too ... "cultural muslims" is what I call 'em ... no threat. But those swinging scimitars? Those supporting the scimitar swingers? ah, threat. both physically and to a Godly way of life: freedom.

Again ... a thread about nephilim is warranted. Referenced here only in the relevance to your OP.

You seem to confuse the bible with scifi.

no sir ... that's my effort to be concise ... to avoid paragraphs about the nephilim. But being without a spirit means they CANNOT receive from The Spirit. Therefore ... all of 'em are evil. we don't need to be concerned with who is and who isn't, but we DO need to be aware they exist today ... per Gen 6.

You dreamed up that neppie business. The bible mentions no such thing in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Total fantasy.

I think I failed to communicate ... I am not saying the nephilim exist in the millennium. I am saying they expressly they opposite. They do NOT exist at the point of the Millennium's beginning, they are "history." Gen 6's reference stops before Christ reigns with His heirs on planet earth. The only evil which exists during the Millennium is of Satan himself and he's the "last of the mohicans" locked away unable to "accuse" for this period of 1000 years. (Gonna avoid the amillennial discussion as to whether that time is literally 1000 earth years in this thread)

I looked at that chapter and saw zero mention of any neppies..

Sir ... Ex 23:20 - ... this is the conquest of Canaan. The land Joshua and Caleb had "spied" 40 years prior and were the only two of the 12 Moses commissioned to "recon" the Promised Land. Numbers 13 ... the bunch of grapes so large they had to cut a pole and carry it between two men. The 7 tribes of Canaanites had giants among 'em ... God's angel went before them and in a single year (so the land wouldn't lie desolate) destroyed 'em all ... and commanded Joshua to send his mighty men to kill the "regulars" (my word) including the women and children. They were all nephilim, seeded by Ham and his wife after The Flood. "don't mix with them" was the command of The Angel (Jesus pre incarnate)

... as an aside ... Nat Geo ran an article in August or September '20. Archaeologist said they'd found 3400 year old Canaanite ruins, but no remains of humans. I think they were 300 years off in their dating. I think they found one of the cities of a Canaanite tribe (IDK which one) from the Conquest ... and that if they keep digging around, they're gonna find mass graves ... which will include 5' long femurs. The Angel told Joshua to "clean up the place" after each engagement.

A typical Jewish party really has no great meaning So?

no, it isn't the Word of God ... 7 day celebration = 7 years wedding feast of The Lamb ... but given the parable of the 10 virgins is wholly based upon the Jewish wedding, I would stop short in saying the Jewish wedding party has no great meaning. The "So" is the parallel of the 7 year period on planet earth post Armageddon and 7 years in Heaven. A consideration. There's no passage which specifically says this ...

But in this discourse, let's remember Proverbs 25:2 my fellow king ... of whom Jesus is King of kings. (I just realized this last year!!!! Amazing! "King of kings" ... the kings of whom He is King isn't so much about medieval King Jameses ... but His heirs.

So why say it was?

because I think it does. You challenged that notion, which is fine, but I'm offering that if Ezekiel's vision from chp 43 has already occurred, why has there been no writing of it? I'd think there'd have been a LOT of writings on this were the Triune God occupying the 2nd Temple as Ezekiel described. It also validates there will be a 3rd Temple which Ezekiel saw as well as John.

? John was taken to a temple? Chapter and verse?

Rev 11:1-2 ... "...get up and measure the temple of God ..." "... but leave out the outer courts for that is given to the nations (gentiles) ... ... who will trod for 42 months."

The abomination (dome of the rock) of 691 was prophesied by Daniel and is the reference of Daniel 12 to understand ... "...blessed is he who endures to the end, 1335 (years)" ... just as Daniel prophesied the crucifixion of Jesus ... precisely.

Please take some time to review this document. I've posted it elsewhere, but you're as computer ops challenged as I am, you won't be able to find it.

It's "a consideration."

Thanks again! God bless you and yours this season.

 

[Two Wings]

“THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

Why do people have so much trouble reading Revelation? It's because the Jesuits placed it in the futuristic tense to remove the Papacy from the charge made by Protestants of being the Antichrist. If they could place him into the future, instead of the present, nobody would suspect him being the man of sin.

So any futurist interpretation of Revelation comes from them and not from John the Revelator.

Why can't people see any fulfillment in the prophecies? Because they look for the symbols to appear instead of what the symbols represent. Look around, it is all happening before our eyes, and has been.

Hmm. this is the preterits thing again? All prophesy except for the Second Coming has occurred? What about the New Jerusalem?

I want to understand God's Word precisely ... 2 Tim 2:15 ...

I'm not a Jesuit. I'm not a RCC. I have never thought the pope to be/become the antichrist.

claiming Dan 9:25 is history is a big ol bridge too far for me. How can it possibly be that sin has ended? Is the Accuser no longer a factor in today's life? What then of our enemy in Ephesians 6?

 

[1689Dave]

Hmm. this is the preterits thing again? All prophesy except for the Second Coming has occurred? What about the New Jerusalem?

I want to understand God's Word precisely ... 2 Tim 2:15 ...

I'm not a Jesuit. I'm not a RCC. I have never thought the pope to be/become the antichrist.

claiming Dan 9:25 is history is a big ol bridge too far for me. How can it possibly be that sin has ended? Is the Accuser no longer a factor in today's life? What then of our enemy in Ephesians 6?

Prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. But the Jesuits gave you both Preterism and Futurism (Dispensationalism) to place Antichrist (AKA the Pope) in the past or well into the future. All Protestants recognized him as the Antichrist. Don't be fooled by the Catholics. "What must SHORTLY Come to Pass" rules out both of their lies.

 

[Two Wings]

Prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. But the Jesuits gave you both Preterism and Futurism (Dispensationalism) to place Antichrist (AKA the Pope) in the past or well into the future. All Protestants recognized him as the Antichrist. Don't be fooled by the Catholics. "What must SHORTLY Come to Pass" rules out both of their lies.

all protestants? really? I wasn't aware of this.

Now, I can accept there was some propaganda to push the separation from the catholics' dogma ... but despite being raised in a solidly Southern Baptist Church from the early 70s through the 80s ... I don't recall ever being taught the pope was (is/will be) antichrist.

I guess I wasn't a good protestant. nor am I a good roman catholic.

Yes ... avoid deception.

 

[robycop3]

The really big problem with your plan is that Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision, not blood, made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Today's State of Israel or the Jews are not Biblical Israel or biblical Jews.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !
Look at their history.

 

[robycop3]

Prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. But the Jesuits gave you both Preterism and Futurism (Dispensationalism) to place Antichrist (AKA the Pope) in the past or well into the future. All Protestants recognized him as the Antichrist. Don't be fooled by the Catholics. "What must SHORTLY Come to Pass" rules out both of their lies.

...Except it HASN'T yet come to pass.

 

[robycop3]

The 1st seal will be the coming of the beast/antichrist. While his empire will begin with 10 heads of state giving their authority to him, he will hafta force 3 0f them to do so. He will be super-popular worldwide at first. Then, he will make war on his neighbors & win. The rapture won't occur til he's establidhed his power, just before the great trib starts.

The beast & the false prophet will each be 1 man. The idea that the line of popes is the beast is hogwash.

 

[dad2]

“THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

Did you ever look at all the things in that book? For example the churches. You do realize they were already there when the book was written, and had started acting certain ways?
Jesus also clarified when the main part of the end time prophesies will happen.
Mat 24:So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[dad2]

The 1st seal will be the coming of the beast/antichrist. While his empire will begin with 10 heads of state giving their authority to him, he will hafta force 3 0f them to do so. He will be super-popular worldwide at first. Then, he will make war on his neighbors & win. The rapture won't occur til he's establidhed his power, just before the great trib starts.

The beast & the false prophet will each be 1 man. The idea that the line of popes is the beast is hogwash.

True. The man rises at a certain time and is revealed at the right time. He is not revealed yet, so people assigning the title to various old geyser, no one really cares about popes is certainly wrong.