When should a senior pastor be fired?

[patrick]

Example I lend myself to more on the con side being a student minister......Pastor X is a tradionlist thru and thru......what should he do? dismiss(you don't like the word fire)....SEE WE CANT DIFFER AND STILL BE EFFECTIVE

If you move you have better have peace. God still speaks to even lowly staff. I know when it is of God or not.
I am a conservitve southern Baptist. I don't get caught up in philisophy of ministry junk. That is a bunch of baloney. You have to see a need and meet it. This is what I believe minstry to be is garbage. Jesus saw needs/ He met needs.

Personality, you learn in elementry school to get along with others. I feel, I can get along with anyone I meet. You sometimes have to put things aside.

Maybe, I am just a simple guy with simple ideas. I don't put all this emphasis on the small details. Sometimes i think we miss the big picture of ministry. We are ministers and not businness exec

 

[Pastor Larry]

Being a student minister and being traditionalist are not necessarily differences. Being a Willow Creeker and a traditionalist are differences. If you are leaning towards a Willow Creek type of ministry and the new pastor is a traditionalists thru and thru, you don't have a good working relationship. There is nothing "baloney" about philosophy of ministry. You might say you don't get caught up in it, but you have one whether you know it or not.

SEcondly, I don't doubt that God still speak to "even lowly staff" whoever that is. It seems like a not so veiled slap at what I have been saying, but I won't take it that way. My point was that "peace" is a bad basis on which to make a decision. You know when it is God or not when something lines up with his word. There is no other way to know whether or not it is God speaking.

Ministry is about making disciples, from start to finish, in order to glorify God. He comes first, not our petty little problems and desires. In the end, a church calls a pastor to do what a pastor is supposed to do ... Lead them. Don't ever forget that.

 

[obscureone]

The OP was, "when should a sr pastor be fired?" Seems Paul addressed that in 1 Tim 5. If he refuses to stop sinning, he needs to be publicly rebuked. If he rejects the rebuke, he should be disciplined, aka fired.

 

[patrick]

lARRY,
i HOPE YOU HAD A GOOD HOLIDAY!!! I hope you understand where I am coming from. He comes first that is right. Personality of staff should be very low on the list.
I was at Sam's yesterday and saw a book you would like Jesus Ceo. We need to make the church a place where the world does not see its influence. When we run a church like a business we lose sight of what the church is all about.

I really dont have a philosphy of ministry. I have an example on how to do minstry in the Bible. I try to follow the lead of Jesus. My ideas dont matter. It is not about me or you.it isn't about our ideas or thoughts. It is us helping people become more like Jesus each and every day of our lives.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I understand where you are coming from, but I think you are missing the practical points I am making. Leadership is vastly important in a church and on a church ministry team. The church should not be run like a business. You can't. But you do have to lead, and you have to be willing to move people who are not fitting in to the direction and values of the ministry. It is a tough thing to do, but it is necessary sometimes.

BTW, you do have a philosophy of ministry. Everyone does. It may be incoherent or inconsistent (I am not saying your's is), but everyone has one. A philosphy is simply why you do what you do. When you say you have an example in the Bible, that is a philosophy. I think we all claim that, by the way.

 

[TexasSky]

What are we calling "Staff" anyway?
His secretary? The Minister of Music?

I can see wanting your own secretary, but I feel casting judgement on another minister is getting on shakey ground spiritually.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The staff is usually considered the paid positions including the assistant pastors for various areas of ministry. THey serve as extensions of hte office of pastor, not as an office in themselves. I think we too often forget that and pretend like the assistants are somehow a biblical office. They aren't. They serve to extend the ministry of hte pastor, and therefore, the pastor ought to have the major say in who extends his ministry.

A church and her leaders are called to make judgments about who is fit to serve in ministry. That doesn't put one on shaky ground. That puts them on biblical ground.

 

[patrick]

Larry,

A pastor should have some say. A church calls a pastor to serve 1st and formost.We are not that far off from one another. I just feel that a pastor that comes and in and makes wholesale changes probbally has an ego that is pretty large.

Most men of God doesn't seek to create change. Most I know would welcome staff that knows the people and the community. You are probbally being misunderstood by me and if so I am sorry.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by patrick:

I just feel that a pastor that comes and in and makes wholesale changes probbally has an ego that is pretty large.

Not always. I one of my cases the deacons wanted me to make some serious changes. I felt I was up to it but didn't realize that the same people who wanted the changes did not supoort me when they were made. The problem was that they didn't like it when the people who were becoming Christians were not from the church but came from Bible studies I was leading with non-believers. They liked their little church but their little church was no longer so little and they were losing their little group of friends where everyone knew everybody else. For 60 years the church grew just a few people. The religionists didn't like it when I preached on the Sermon on the Mount and taught what Jesus did. Some of the deacons even told me not to ask them to pray publically. Within a short time I had about 25 people in two Bible studies I led full of people who knew little or nothing about the Bible and later became Christians. Within no time at all the new people were inviting their friends to church. The youth were getting together at school. But those deacons who wanted growth didn't like it when their church was invaded with change and people they didn't know.

A lot of church leaders say they want growth but when it comes to work and evangelism they are out to lunch. They want nickels but are not so sure they want noses.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by patrick:
Most men of God doesn't seek to create change.

Then read the books of the prophets. Take a look at Jesus. Read Paul's letters.

 

[patrick]

gb93433,

Read the context of the post. I am talking about personel changes. Not changes within the church itsself.

 

[All about Grace]

In my opinion, a new pastor should have the right to keep or "fire" any staff he desires. Of course a wise man will make this decision after extended prayer and consideration. But at the end of the day, Larry is right -- a pastor is to be the primary vision caster of the church and if a staff member has a different idea of what the church is to be, inevitable problems will ensue.

I would not take a church where I did not have that right. And before anyone gets out of shape, I have never "fired" an existing staff person upon arrival. There have been times where over time we both realized we were not going the same direction, so the staff member sought other employment in a ministry that served his/her gifts better.

 

[patrick]

All about grace,

You are basically saying that a church is a dictatorship.You are assuming also that the pastor has the good of the church in mind. You need to be very careful when saying a pastor should have absolute athority. I can show you churches where pasotrs have ruined them by that kind of mindset.

I guess servant leadership is a thing of the past to hear form some. If you are not willing to serve than you cannot lead. Give me a pastor where he is humble and willing to serve and I will show you a great leader.

You have to earn the right to be a leader.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Patrick,

I didn't see anything in All about grace's comments that indicated a dictatorship was his view of hte church. I think that was a misplaced conclusion.

There are certainly churches ruined by pastors with the authority they should have. There are churches that have been ruined by pastors without the authority they should have. In other words, churches have been ruined by all types.

Humble servant leadership does not preclude someone from firing and hiring staff. You earn the right to be leader by being a leader. You cannot lead if the people closest to you and pulling another direction.

 

[Alcott]

I do not think a pastor should be like the head coach of an athletic team, bringing in his "own staff" when hired, possibly keeping some from the outgoing staff if needed and if they want to break from the outgoing head coach. In the first place, it usually takes several months in the search for a new pastor before one is invited to come preach and have some kind of Q&A session and then be almost inevitably voted 'in,' and he accepts if the church is to his liking and there weren't too many negative votes. A church should not be without a ministerial staff during these months, so they should not resign just because the 'senior pastor,' whose staff they are part of, has done so. In the second place, this type of system cannot fit well with the budgets of the large majority of churches. If a pastoral candidate says he will not consider an invitation to a church unless he can bring 'his' assistant, 'his' youth minister, 'his' senior adult minister, et al, the church may not even have the positions at the time, so there is no budget allowance; and even if there is, no church shuold be expected to meet the salary, allowance, and benefit requirements of certain staff members when they have not even been considered, as only the prospective pastor has been evaluated.

I think a better model than the coaching staff comparison would be the state government of Texas. If ministerial positions are compared to the legislative, judicial, and executive branches of government, they would be predominantly executive in description [this might be a subject of another thread]. In the US government, all executive positions are technically under the President, with many being required to be approved by the Senate. When you vote for President, you vote for a vast number of offices in one. But in Texas, executive statewide offices are independent from each other. The Governor, in fact, is only the 3rd most powerful executive office, behind the Lieutenant Governor and the Comptroller of Public Accounts. Voters elect these officers by separate election, and they are not directly responsible to the Governor or any other executive. In a church, ministerial and office staff positions are determined with the 'separate office' system; at least the churches I have been involved in. If a pastor thinks in terms of CEO aspirations, I think he should be in a secular business. So many pastors talk so much about the 'demands' of preaching, teaching, counseling sessions, meetings... if this is all so much, then why aspire to the even greater burden of being personally responsible for what several others do?

 

[patrick]

Larry,
You are assuming that the staff is the problem. Many times that is not the case.My premise is simple the Pastor coming in should hold off on dismissing anyone.

You make it sound as if a pastor comes to a new church the staff has a super secret plot to make that the new pastor life's terriable. That is not the case. Most staff people are Godly men and women who only seek to serve God.

I feel like that you are wanting to put the pastor as ceo of the church. I feel he must 1st be a servant and then lead. We look at the life of Jesus and we don't see a ceo mentality.

I serve by call of the church. I serve because God has put me here. If a pastor came in and said it was time for me to go, i would think he was overstepping his bounds. I must seek the will of God for my ministry and He will let me know when it is time to leave.

We have danced around on this issue for awhile and I think we are both going to xtremes on the subject. Leadership also includes caring for others. A good leader does not try to disassemble a good staff unless there is a good ole boy network or an ego problem.
Right now at this point in my ministry someone told me to leave, I would have to fight them. It would be done the Biblically and with grace. I would not want to tell my kids Pastor x says it is time for me to go. I have always been able to look my kids in the eye and tell them, this is the Lord's will for this ministry.

I know God's will for my life better than anyone else.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Patrick,

I have explicitly said that a pastor would probably be wise not to completely overhaul the staff. I am not assuming they are the problem. I have specifically addressed that, so I don't know why you bring it up again. I have said nothing to indicate a CEO mentality (though that would not necessarily be a bad thing, based on the biblical description of what the pastor is to be). A pastor can abuse his office; but he can also abdicate leadership.

Secondly, a church should not be without a staff when a pastor leaves. If you notice what I said, I did not say that the staff should resign when the old pastor does. Nor did I even say they should resign. I said they should offer their resignations when the new pastor comes on.

In your particular church, you may serve at the call of hte church. IMO, that is a bad way to set it up, but in such a case, the pastor cannot fire you. If he encouraged you to move on, you would be wise to consider it. After all, do you really want to work for/with someone who doesn't want you there? I wouldn't think so. God often lets you know when it is time to do something by what your employer does, or by what other people do. He is not in teh business of special revelation. He works through our desires and circumstances. Don't dismiss too quickly the opinion of a godly man whom God has led to a church. The fact that you would have a fight with a pastor who suggested it was time to go demonstrates a very wrong attitude, IMO. That is the very thing that could split a church wide open, and the fact that you would take advantage of that ability shows a troubling attitude towards the body of Christ. Part of hte problem with the scenario that you have (where the church calls teh assistants) is this very thing. There are divided loyalties rather than a unified church leadership team. You have the capacity to pit the congregation against itself. I hope for your sake and the sake of hte church, that you never fall prey to that temptation. It could be disastrous.

 

[patrick]

First of all the pastor is not my employer.You need to put Jesus in the equation somewhere Larry.I would question the man who would want to fire me because I was here before him.

Ego Ego Ego..... It sounds like that is the problem. Pastors serve as an invation of the local church and not the opposite as you woiuld have it. If some hot shot said you are fired then darn right I would fight for my ministry.

God still leads each and every heart willing to submit to him and not the pastor. My alligiance is with Christ and no man.

 

[Pastor Larry]

First of all the pastor is not my employer.

Did someone say they were? The church is your employer.

You need to put Jesus in the equation somewhere Larry.

IO have.

I would question the man who would want to fire me because I was here before him.

Me too. It would be a very bad reason to fire someone or ask for their resignation simply because you were there before him. I have explicitly stated possible reasons and explicitly warned against bad reasons. Why do you ignore that and pretend like I haven't said it? (How can I have a conversation with someone who doesn't listen to what I say?)

Ego Ego Ego..... It sounds like that is the problem.

Ego certainly can be a problem. When someone says that they wouldn't let someone ask them to resign without a fight, that could be an ego problem.

Pastors serve as an invation of the local church and not the opposite as you woiuld have it.

As I would have it? What in the world are you talking about? Where did I ever say anything about local churches serving at the request of the pastor? Are you actually reading this conversation? I have said many times that the chuch congregation calls the pastor to serve.

If some hot shot said you are fired then darn right I would fight for my ministry.

"Dern" is an inappropriate slang substitute for profanity and has no place in the vocabulary of a Christian. Second, to judge someone as a "hot shot" because they fired you is simply wrong.

You need to sit down and study the passages in Scripture about pastors and their roles in the church. Whether you like it or not, God made them overseers, managers of the flock.

The more you have said, the more troubled I become about your position. You seem very antagnostic towards God ordained leadership. That is very troublesome. I hope you will consider the way you have come across. Perhaps there is something being lost in the cyberworld here, but as a fellow minister, I urge you strongly to think about what you have said the manner in which you have said it.

 

[All about Grace]

Bottom line: whatever type of organization you are talking about (church, business, etc.) someone has to have the authority and right to hire and fire. It has nothing to do with dictatorships or control or absolute authority and everything to do with reality and common sense organization.

An organization w/o a leader will go nowhere fast.

It sounds like Patrick has some issues he is dealing with regarding pastoral leadership.

Are there pastors who abuse authority and act like fools? Of course. Are there churches that abuse authority and act like fools? More often than the previous.

And yes a pastor does need to have a CEO mentality. HE IS THE LEADER. The CEO aspect has nothing to do with servant leadership. The two are not exclusive.

Everything rises and falls on leadership.