John Gilmore
New Member
Why God calls some and passes by others, even though He desires all to be saved and all are totally depraved, is beyond human reason.
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When the Bible Blows Your Mind
- Thread starter Monergist
- Start date
Eric,
You are right, I can't believe I let that go by. I've been gone for a week and I must have missed that one. Thanks for backing me up. I notice that no one even attempted to answer you.
Revealing.
and hardened their heart.... </font>[/QUOTE]Tim,
This is my point. The only time that scripture speaks of man's inablity to believe is in regard to God's hardening. Do you equate hardening with Total Depravity? If so, you have some problems. Hardening is something that occurs after one hears the truth and rejects it. Total Depravity is from birth and claims that man cannot even understand the truth of God. Hardening teaches that man understands the truth but rejects it thus becoming hardened. Plus, the judicial hardening of Israel is temporary according to Paul in Romans 11. Is Total Depravity temporary?
Please explain.
You are right, I can't believe I let that go by. I've been gone for a week and I must have missed that one. Thanks for backing me up. I notice that no one even attempted to answer you.
Revealing.
Bill, I just want to point out the verse I quoted above Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart.... </font>[/QUOTE]Tim,
This is my point. The only time that scripture speaks of man's inablity to believe is in regard to God's hardening. Do you equate hardening with Total Depravity? If so, you have some problems. Hardening is something that occurs after one hears the truth and rejects it. Total Depravity is from birth and claims that man cannot even understand the truth of God. Hardening teaches that man understands the truth but rejects it thus becoming hardened. Plus, the judicial hardening of Israel is temporary according to Paul in Romans 11. Is Total Depravity temporary?
Please explain.
OK.
Not so. Where's hardening here? 1 Cor. 2:14(ESV) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
That statement is true, as far as it goes. Scripture does associate rejection of revealed truth with hardening AND it also shows hardening to be according to God's predetermined plan.
Only for the elect.
Where does it say anything about man's inablity to believe in this passage?
Plus, if you read the entire passage you will see that the things that the "natural man" cannot understand are the "deep things of God" (vs 10) not the basic gospel. If it were the basic gospel message that they could not understand then the people Paul is writing to in Corith must have been lost because Paul tells them "they were not able to recieve it" either.
Plus, this passage is about what one understands once the Spirit has indwelled them. It says nothing about the means by which the Spirit indwells them. Gal. 3 tells us the answer to that question, "the promised Spirit comes through faith."
I agree. God determined to harden Israel in order to accomplish His divine purpose of redemption, but you have avoided the real issue. Is hardening and Total Depravity the same? Acts 28:25-28 and John 12:37-41 seem to indicate that had Israel not been hardened they could have seen, heard, understood and believed, therefore if one is born Totally Depraved as Calvinists assume why would God need to harden them. Why would you make a blind man blind? Why would you hide the gospel in parables as Christ did if indeed it is unable to be understood by anyone?
There you go. So, you admit that Total Depravity and Hardening are different??? You still need to explain your position further. How does hardening work within your system?Only for the elect.
Bill, it works just like the Scripture tells us.
Man starts out depraved, from birth.
Man hears the truth, rejects the truth, and his heart is darkened. (See Romans 1)
In some way, God hardens those whom He chooses to. There are some things here that I don't clearly understand, as I posted earlier. But God does harden hearts (the hearers from John 12 of which Isaiah foretold, Pharoah, etc.) for His own purposes and glory.
Depravity is a condition; hardening is an action, resulting in a further condition. That's how they're differnt.
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that he starts off unable to see, hear, understand and believe? Or do you only mean he starts off with a sin nature and a bent towards sin? There is a big difference in your understanding of original sin and mine, so you must clarify what you mean when you say "depraved."
Exactly! He hears it, understands it and then freely by his own will rejects it. THEN he becomes "defiled" and "turned over" by God. He is not born being defiled and turned over as Total Depravity suggests. He is born with the capasity to understand the things of God as Romans 1 clearly shows us, yet Calvinism insists that lost men cannot understand the things of God.
There are several passages throughout scripture which talk about man's hardening himself by rejecting truth and living in sin. There are also several passages which speak of God's judicial hardening of those who have rejected him.
Pharoah is the clearest example of this. He, of his own free will, decided that he would not let the Israelites go, yet God also hardened him. Why? God sealed Pharoah in his stubborn condition so that the first few plagues wouldn't convince him to let the people go too early. God wanted his power to be displayed through the plagues and didn't want Pharoah to change his mind too soon, so He hardened his heart. The assured that Pharoah would not see the light even despite the very obvious display of God's power.
The same is true of the Israelites. They (for the most part) had decided by their own freewill to reject God despite the fact that God longed to save them (Matt 23:37). God hardened them in that stubbornness so that even the awesome miracles and very convincing teaching of the Christ would not persuade them. Why? Because God was using the Jews to accomplish His purpose. One, the crucifixtion. Two, the ingrafting of the Gentiles. I hope that clears it up a little bit for you.
Once again, let me ask: How does a blind man become more blind? Calvinist say man is born "TOTALLY depraved." How does hardening make man any more "TOTALLY" blind, deaf, and unable to believe? It just doesn't make since.
Why does the scripture clearly indicate that had they not been hardened they might have seen, heard, believed and turned to God for healing if indeed they were born "Total Depraved???"
Brother Bill,
I would like to read your definition of: Repentance, Regeneration, Faith. What is the difference between repentance and regeneration? Which one comes first? What would you say man is capable of doing by himself: repent, believe (having saving faith in Christ) and be born again? Which one do you see as an act of God and which one is the act of man?
Waiting....
I enjoy your postings!!!
Pardi
I would like to read your definition of: Repentance, Regeneration, Faith. What is the difference between repentance and regeneration? Which one comes first? What would you say man is capable of doing by himself: repent, believe (having saving faith in Christ) and be born again? Which one do you see as an act of God and which one is the act of man?
Waiting....
I enjoy your postings!!!
Pardi