When to confront a pastor

[evangelist6589]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

 

[Don]

-1 for improper use of "whom."

"Confront"? How about you schedule some time with him for the two of you to study the matter together, instead of "confronting"?

Iron sharpeneth iron; and more especially, Galatians 6:1.

 

[Rolfe]

Is this the Pastor of your Wife's church? I say "your Wife's" because you have said that you go to a different church because of doctrinal differences.

 

[PreachTony]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

Does your church hold to Lordship Salvation as part of their Statement or Articles of Faith? If not, then who are you to try to bring in doctrines that are not part of their established doctrine? Did the pastor truly stand by an easy-believism message, or do you just look at anything that in't Lordship Salvation as easy-believism? I hope you're not setting up a false dichotomy, because that's not a good way to live a theologically sound life.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

Scripture speaks plainly enough on the means by which you should confront someone you perceive has done wrong.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

That being said, you are desiring to confront a pastor simply because he disagrees with you on a theological position. The man has done nothing wrong to you; he has not trespassed against you. Yet you desire confrontation where none should occur.

I don't agree with my pastor on every theological issue. That does not mean I should confront him unless he offers up affront to the gospel itself. Only then would I have grounds to confront him, and even then it should be carried out in the gospel order listed in the scripture above.

Now, if you think merely having the opinion that Lordship Salvation is a works-based salvation (a position many hold to) is an affront to the gospel, then you might as well prepare yourself to live your entire life offended and others' beliefs.

 

[Jerome]

The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.
So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

I say go ahead and confront the Calvinist pastor for his false teachings on those things.

 

[InTheLight]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

 

[Rippon]

-1 for improper use of "whom."

No Don. At this late stage evan deserves many more demerits than just a -1. He has been taught scores of times on the matter and yet ignores the advice as much as he ignoress counsel on weightier issues. If he is unteachable on small matters --he will remain unteachable on the larger matters.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

Two things:

[1] Why are you wanting to BE confrontational? The pastor in question already knows your stance on Calvinism and Lordship Salvation and more. That's why you are not teaching Sunday School anymore according to one of your long ago posts.

What is your goal of wanting to confront him again? You seem so eager to do so. Was your pride wounded when you were not allowed to teach Sunday School again? Is your goal to convert the pastor who does not support you TO Calvinistic tenets? To make him believe what YOU believe?

I don't think you are going to change him by "confronting" him. Why are you still there - sitting under a preacher with whom you so vehemently disagree in terms of doctrine that's important to you.

If I sat under a pastor with whom I had nothing in common doctrinally speaking and that pastor already knew my heart and had refused me to speak about it and would not meet with me to talk about it - then I would not be at that church anymore. I could not sit under the preaching of a pastor who taught the opposite of what I believed.

And it would not matter to me if my husband were a member, my kids, my family, my parents, or anyone I loved. I would find another church. If all I could talk about and think about in attending that church were "confrontational" thoughts that would impede my worship and my service to the Lord at that church. I would have to leave.

All KINDS of families sometimes attend different church for that reason. And for many - it works.

The Calvinist counselor that you went to did not rebuke you because that's not what counselors are trained to do. They are trained to listen, to evaluate, and to make suggestions and offer guidance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[2] Did you notice that I used the word "whom" twice and "who"? I used the words correctly.

Whom substitutes for him and her and me.

You wouldn't say about that Christian counselor that:

• "HIM graduated from Mac's college"
• or "HER graduated from Mac's college"
• or "ME graduate from Mac's college"

Then don't say "WHOM graduated from Mac's college".


You would say:

• "HE graduated from Mac's college"
• or "SHE graduated from Mac's college"
• or "I graduated from Mac's college"
• so say "WHO graduated from Mac's college"

Who substitutes for he and she.

 

[tyndale1946]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

I say the very first thing you do is get on your knees and pray!... We all need the Lords guidance... Lord what would you have me do?... To often well meaning brothers or sisters see and I don't excuse myself see the error in the their church and think its their God given duty to correct it... Be careful its God that corrects the errors as he knows exactly what is needed and where the when and the how. Follow biblical guidelines according to scripture but before any action is taken... "PRAY"... Remember the Lord takes care of it in his time not ours and there is always a reason he does even though we may not see it at the time... Brother Glen

 

[blessedwife318]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

First the pastor you were gossiping with should have called you out on the gossip. Therefore his not rebuking you for being disruptive in Sunday School is a moot point.

Second the Bible is clear about the procedure for dealing with problems with other believers. Matthew 18 has already been brought up but since this is dealing with a pastor we should also look at 1 Tim 5:17-19 which says:

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

You alone do not have the Biblical Authority to confront a pastor. You have to have at least 2 people to do so. My guess is that everyone else in your wife’s church either agrees with the pastor, or doesn’t see it as a dividing issue. Which means that you are the one out of Biblical line here.

Third why are you still going to this church. And why did you marry someone knowing they were anti-Calvinist, when it is such a deal breaker for you? Did you not realize how much inner turmoil that would bring into your marriage?

 

[JonC]

Second the Bible is clear about the procedure for dealing with problems with other believers. Matthew 18 has already been brought up but since this is dealing with a pastor we should also look at 1 Tim 5:17-19 which says:



You alone do not have the Biblical Authority to confront a pastor. You have to have at least 2 people to do so. My guess is that everyone else in your wife’s church either agrees with the pastor, or doesn’t see it as a dividing issue. Which means that you are the one out of Biblical line

Good points.


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[evangelist6589]

Good points.


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So you disagree with Lordship salvation?

 

[JonC]

So you disagree with Lordship salvation?

No. I disagree with some people's view of Lordship salvation but scripture teaches that we can only have Jesus as Savior and Lord.


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[blessedwife318]

So you disagree with Lordship salvation?

So you disagree with the Biblical command to have 2 witnesses when confronting a pastor?

Here it is again since it did not show up I'm JonC quote
1 Tim 5:17-19
17*Let the elders*who rule well be considered worthy of*double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.*18*For the Scripture says,“You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and,*“The laborer deserves his wages.”*19*Do not admit a charge against an elder except*on the evidence of two or three witnesses.*

 

[JonC]

Even,

Let’s move away from this doctrine for a moment and use another for illustration. John MacArthur (a pastor towards whom you have expressed support and interest) opposes the idea that we are to place anyone under the Mosaic Law. Do you believe that it is appropriate for you to bash John MacArthur, or write letters confronting him on this issue? If you were a member of Grace Community Church, would it be appropriate for you to seek council from Ray Comfort in combating MacArthur’s stance?

We have to be careful not to lean on our own understanding. I am not sure how you define “Lordship salvation,” and I am not sure how your pastor defines “Lordship salvation,” so it is impossible for me to engage actual views of the doctrine (most, but not all, seem to disagree on definition more than doctrine). But that’s another issue - why do you believe you should confront your pastor for disagreeing with your understanding? This seems extremely prideful to me. You should discuss the matter, but I don’t understand your need for confrontation. This would fall in the realm of church discipline, and Blessedwife is right - you alone do not have that authority (you, not your pastor, should fall under church discipline in this case). I hope this helps understand my comment - it was not about “Lordship salvation” but about divisiveness and causing division within the local church body.

 

[Aaron]

I was chatting with a certain Christian counselor whom graduated from Mac's college and serves as a pastor of counseling at a Calvinist church. I was talking about my concerns and issues with the church we attend and how I had stood up for the Lordship Salvation doctrine in Sunday school even after a pastor referred to it as "works based salvation" and stood by an easy-believism message. The Calvinist pastor never rebuked me for doing what I did.

So when should you confront a pastor and how should you do it? What if the pastor refuses to listen to you in private but continues to say false things about Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, and other biblical doctrines? What say you?

You still on this kick? Holy freaking cow! When are you going to [act like] a Christian, and step out of the ministry, and get a job to pay your debts and provide for your wife?

And for the last time, learn the freaking rules of grammar! WHOM is objective, and WHO is nominative. "I was chatting with a certain Christian counsellor WHO graduated . . ." not WHOM! Maybe God would be more attentive to your prayers for your wife's conversion if you didn't offend His ears!

 

[JonC]

Maybe God would be more attentive to your prayers for your wife's conversion if you didn't offend His ears!

That's a bit over the top. And whom are you to judge anyway?



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[InTheLight]

Wife's conversion? To what? Calvinism? Oh boy...

 

[Rolfe]

You still on this kick? Holy freaking cow! When are you going to become a Christian, and step out of the ministry, and get a job to pay your debts and provide for your wife?

Seems a bit harsh.

 

[Aaron]

There. Post edited.