When was the RCC founded?

[JonC]

Ignatius did teach that Eucharist was the flesh and blood of Christ, the sacramental is literal, not just symbolic.



Which still makes my point.



The fact that the Fathers pre Constantine maintain the same scriptural and Apostolic view of the Eucharist as Christ’s Body and Blood, means your argument calling the Eucharist pagan is wrong.

No. It doesn't make your point. You are assuming that the Early Church had adopted a paganistic understanding (you are reading into his words).

 

[Salty]

Ignatius did teach that Eucharist was the flesh and blood of Christ, the sacramental is literal, not just symbolic. ....

Makes NO difference what Ignatius or anyone else taught - its what the Bible teaches that's important
And has been stated the wine and bread are only symbols of the body and blood of Christ.

One thing to mentioned - is that if the elements were actually the blood and body of Christ - than that means is constantly being re-crucified.
But Hebrews 9:29 explains it best.

 

[David Kent]

If you read Constantine and look at facts at the time, Christianity was very separate from paganism. There was no blending of the two, they were antithetical belief systems. The Catholics were hostile to paganry and so was Constantine.

Constantine made Christianity the official religion and banned paganism, so many pagans came into the church and were baptised, but not converted, so there were many baptised unbelievers or pagans, if you will. Just as in churches where there is infant baptism, many of those are baptised unbelievers.

 

[David Kent]

My grandmother’s family was from Italy but they lived, worked and sometimes fought for other countries and her father was a citizen of France for a time before finally emigrating to the USA. They supplied the Pennsylvania anthracite coal region with food … being butchers and poultry farmers and grocery store owners. They were also Roman Catholics. The language spoken in the home was always English, they always went to church on Sunday and Holy Days of Oblication but by in large and by temperament they were stoic, with a ton of gravitas. You respected them there experiences and their work ethic. So when the Priest at the local church had Uncle Pat excommunicated, the family took it in stride.

Now that family was considered wealthy via sweat and toil. They also came from many places including the Piedmont region… and grandma’s mother hid that her side were Waloons … and persecuted by the Catholics. I tell you this story because most of those people were crushed by the RCC because they did not submit to the RCC. Quite a display of Christian love! When I heard that story, I understood Uncle Pat’s seemingly unconcern at being excommunicated. Why he even had the local paper take out adds announcing community leaders joining the Masons and his name was on the list(with a photo). So when you say Catholic complete the total name for clarity’s sake (ROMAN) as in at the point of a sword. Thank God for the USA where we have rights. Praise Jesus our Savior!

That is in interesting account.

I had a friend whose mother was a Roman Catholic in Dublin, Ireland. She was deaf and dumb. When she was 16, a friend asked her if she would like to go with her to gospel preaching. She replied that she wouldn't be able to understand.
The friend said that she would sign for her. The young lady went back home and said "I have been to gospel preaching and even converted. " Her father pointed to the door and said "Out." She went to her friend and said "My dad has thrown me out! " The friend said she would find somewhere for her to stay and found a friend who put her up.
Eventually she ended up in Sheffield, England and started a deaf and dumb club where she also taught the gospel till one day a Christian man joined, and she said "Now there is a man here I can't teach anymore, you will have to take over. "
When my friend spoke about his mother he always used sign language as well. He was the only one in his family who was not deaf and dumb.
His son is still a friend of mine.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is in interesting account.

I had a friend whose mother was a Roman Catholic in Dublin, Ireland. She was deaf and dumb. When she was 16, a friend asked her if she would like to go with her to gospel preaching. She replied that she wouldn't be able to understand.
The friend said that she would sign for her. The young lady went back home and said "I have been to gospel preaching and even converted. " Her father pointed to the door and said "Out." She went to her friend and said "My dad has thrown me out! " The friend said she would find somewhere for her to stay and found a friend who put her up.
Eventually she ended up in Sheffield, England and started a deaf and dumb club where she also taught the gospel till one day a Christian man joined, and she said "Now there is a man here I can't teach anymore, you will have to take over. "
When my friend spoke about his mother he always used sign language as well. He was the only one in his family who was not deaf and dumb.
His son is still a friend of mine.

Great story! The Word will supersede any attempt to suppress it and will get through. praise God from all blessings flow

 

[Cathode]

No. It doesn't make your point. You are assuming that the Early Church had adopted a paganistic understanding (you are reading into his words).

Your assuming the early church adopted paganistic Understanding, they were following the Apostolic and scriptural Understanding established by Christ.

 

[Cathode]

Constantine made Christianity the official religion and banned paganism, so many pagans came into the church and were baptised, but not converted, so there were many baptised unbelievers or pagans, if you will. Just as in churches where there is infant baptism, many of those are baptised unbelievers.

No, Constantine didn’t force conversion.

 

[Cathode]

Makes NO difference what Ignatius or anyone else taught - its what the Bible teaches that's important
And has been stated the wine and bread are only symbols of the body and blood of Christ.

One thing to mentioned - is that if the elements were actually the blood and body of Christ - than that means is constantly being re-crucified.
But Hebrews 9:29 explains it best.

No, it’s once for all. All mankind down the ages, the same sacrifice.

 

[Silverhair]

If you read Constantine and look at facts at the time, Christianity was very separate from paganism. There was no blending of the two, they were antithetical belief systems. The Catholics were hostile to paganry and so was Constantine.

Check your history, Augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church and it flowered in the RCC.

 

[JonC]

Your assuming the early church adopted paganistic Understanding, they were following the Apostolic and scriptural Understanding established by Christ.

No. The Early Church didn't adopt a paganistic understanding. The Catholic Church adopted a paganistic understanding.

You are assuming the Catholic Church existed during the Early Church period. The Catholic Church did not exist until the of 4th Century and it didn't mature into the Catholic Church until the 5th Century. It is an old cult, but not as old as you seem to make it.

 

[David Kent]

They don’t read those particular scriptures at Sunday mass.

Ever hear of something called a rosary?

Yes it is a Buddhist thing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your assuming the early church adopted paganistic Understanding, they were following the Apostolic and scriptural Understanding established by Christ.

Did you not ask yourself why they didn’t follow Christs passive non-violent character? I don’t have to remind you that the RCC executed a lot of people, they have much blood on their hands.

 

[John of Japan]

Was the founding actually about 300 AD?

The Plain Truth about the Roman Catholic Church

As a teacher of church history, I say that the Catholic religion as it presently exists goes back to the reign of Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century. Why? He instituted many of the practices that distinguish Catholicism today: forgiveness through baptism, penance, emphasis on the intercession of the saints, the holy relics, the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Jesus, atonement in Purgatory, etc. (cf. Ch. 17, "God's Consul," in Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, 4th ed.).

Another church history source points out that Gregory: "Promoted the doctrines and practices of good works and penance, or purgatory, mass, and transubstantiation, of celibacy of the clergy, of liturgy in worship, of the traditional historic episcopacy" (Who Was Who in Church History, rev., by Elgin Moyer, p. 172). Of these the celibacy of the clergy was particularly heinous, leading to the immorality of so many Catholic priests nowadays.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes it is a Buddhist thing.

True, but it is also a Muslim thing. But as you say, I saw many Buddhists use a rosary in my 33 years as a missionary to Japan. The typical Buddhist priest carries one with him.

Simply put, it is a heathen way of repetitious praying, something Jesus forbade: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matthew 6:7).

 

[Walter]

True, but it is also a Muslim thing. But as you say, I saw many Buddhists use a rosary in my 33 years as a missionary to Japan. The typical Buddhist priest carries one with him.

Simply put, it is a heathen way of repetitious praying, something Jesus forbade: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matthew 6:7).

Jesus did NOT forbid repetitious prayer. He forbade VAIN repetitious prayer. There is a difference. I think of the repetitious singing that goes on in Baptist churches all over the country like: 'Our God is an awesome God, He reigns from heaven above', over and over and over. Is that vain repetitious prayer/worship???

 

[Salty]

... I think of the repetitious singing that goes on in Baptist churches all over the country like: 'Our God is an awesome God, He reigns from heaven above', over and over and over. Is that vain repetitious prayer/worship???

AND that is one reason why MANY Baptists do NOT like those 7-11 songs!

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus did NOT forbid repetitious prayer. He forbade VAIN repetitious prayer. There is a difference.

Actually, the word "vain" is not in the original Greek. The verse should simply say not to use repetitious prayer. (I teach Greek, so you can trust me. )

I think of the repetitious singing that goes on in Baptist churches all over the country like: 'Our God is an awesome God, He reigns from heaven above', over and over and over. Is that vain repetitious prayer/worship???

In the first place, my Baptist church is traditional, avoiding CCM. So we don't use the "7-11" pop music type of singing: 7 words 11 times. We certainly don't sing that CCM song. We sing traditional hymns which are not repetitious.

Secondly, the verse does not say "worship" but "pray." So you are off target. Singing is not the same as praying, though sometimes a hymn can have a prayer in it.

 

[Walter]

Actually, the word "vain" is not in the original Greek. The verse should simply say not to use repetitious prayer. (I teach Greek, so you can trust me. )


In the first place, my Baptist church is traditional, avoiding CCM. So we don't use the "7-11" pop music type of singing: 7 words 11 times. We certainly don't sing that CCM song. We sing traditional hymns which are not repetitious.

Secondly, the verse does not say "worship" but "pray." So you are off target. Singing is not the same as praying, though sometimes a hymn can have a prayer in it.

I agree with you wholeheartedly in regards to traditional hymns and I know that the verse does not include the worship aspect of prayer. I do not believe that repetitious prayer was the target of Jesus directive but rather the type of prayers that were being repeated. IMHO. BTW, I have sat through countless prayer sessions in the Baptist church I grew up in where the words 'guide and direct' were applied to practically every petition and intercession over and over. I believe those prayers to be valid and not what Jesus meant in the verse either.

 

[JonC]

No. The Early Church didn't adopt a paganistic understanding. The Catholic Church adopted a paganistic understanding.

You are assuming the Catholic Church existed during the Early Church period. The Catholic Church did not exist until the of 4th Century and it didn't mature into the Catholic Church until the 5th Century. It is an old cult, but not as old as you seem to make it.

Thank you for your prayers, @Walter . I appreciate Christians praying for one another even when they belong to different denominations. Many would pray sarcastically, but I know Catholics treat prayer seriously.

I'm not sure why you chose this post, though. It is fairly common knowledge that Catholicism included paganistic influences (even Catholic scholars have noted this . . . I just reject their defense).

From a historic position (not a religious one) it is also common knowledge that the Catholic Church is post Early Church. Catholics, CoC, Landmarkists and a few others claim to have existed as the Early Church. But history proves that notion wrong.

 

[Marooncat79]

Who is the Queen of Heaven?

jeremiah 7:18