When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[TaliOrlando]

When we die, do we go directly to heaven or hell?????

I know in the bible it states that the dead will rise first or someting like that. Is there a waiting place until JESUS returns.. or is heaven and hell the waiting place and anyways.... Please explain.. lol.. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

John 11 "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake him"

1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise first" - Christ brings with him "those who have fallen asleep".

1 Cor 15 "We shall not all sleep - but we shall all be changed"

Rev 20 describes "the FIRST resurrection" were "The Dead in Christ rise FIRST".

This comes after the tribulation period - after the seven last plagues of Rev 16 and happens AT the Rev 19 appearing of Christ.

The sequence in Matt 24 spells this out perfectly.

In Matt 22 Christ argues FOR "the resurrection" pointing out "God is not the god of the dead but of the LIVING".

That is THE argument for why there must be a resurrection of the "Dead in Christ" -- because that is the only way to consider God as "The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" after they have died. It is "the only solution".

The section of the Bible I am highlighting here "may not be popular" but it resurfaces in wayyyy too many places for me to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TaliOrlando]

John 11 "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake him"

1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise first" - Christ brings with him "those who have fallen asleep".

1 Cor 15 "We shall not all sleep - but we shall all be changed"

Rev 20 describes "the FIRST resurrection" were "The Dead in Christ rise FIRST".

This comes after the tribulation period - after the seven last plagues of Rev 16 and happens AT the Rev 19 appearing of Christ.

The sequence in Matt 24 spells this out perfectly.

In Matt 22 Christ argues FOR "the resurrection" pointing out "God is not the god of the dead but of the LIVING".

That is THE argument for why there must be a resurrection of the "Dead in Christ" -- because that is the only way to consider God as "The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" after they have died. It is "the only solution".

The section of the Bible I am highlighting here "may not be popular" but it resurfaces in wayyyy too many places for me to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

So when we die.. do we go directly to heaven if we are saved or go directly to hell if we are not saved.. or just go to sleep until the rapture?

 

[SBCPreacher]

2 Cor 5:8 says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (NKJV) When the Believer dies, he (or she) is immediately in the Lord's presence.

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 2 - "we are seated with him in the heavenly places" by faith now - even though in reality this does not happen until the Rev 20 event.

1. Mark 10:30
   but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
2. Luke 18:30
   who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Eternal life is not received until the 1Thess 4 and Rev 20 "event" of the age to come.

 

[BobRyan]

In 2Cor 5 there are THREE states for mankind.

1. Clothed in this decaying tent and ALIVE
2. Unclothed - and dead
3. Clothed with the new body once death is destroyed

1Cor 15 tells us that death is destroyed at the coming of Christ,

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So when we die.. do we go directly to heaven if we are saved or go directly to hell if we are not saved.. or just go to sleep until the rapture?

Eccl 12 tells us that the spirit of man goes to God who gave it at death. This is true for both the wicked and the righteous - and although BOTH go to God at death - BOTH are also dormant and "sleep" waiting for their part in either the first resurrection (resurrection of the Dead in Christ - over these the second death has no power) or raised in the SECOND resurrection (Rev 20 - and over THESE the second death DOES have power).

 

[LeBuick]

- and although BOTH go to God at death - BOTH are also dormant and "sleep" waiting.

How does the spirit go to God and still be dormant and sleep?

Scripture?

 

[DHK]

How does the spirit go to God and still be dormant and sleep?

Scripture?

It doesn't.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
That is the plain clear teaching of the Bible which Bob cannot get around.

 

[Brother Bob]

Phl 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Hbr 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The soul leaves the body and goes to be with Jesus until the day of the resurrection when it will come back and be reunited with the changed body. Then both soul and body will go to Heaven forever.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gen 35:18And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

 

[Matt Black]

Here's something I wrote quite a while ago, quoting from Oskar Cullman's Christ and Time, pp. 233-236:-

On the resurrection and its impact on death itself, the ultimate suffering, Cullmann says: “Everything that relates to the resurrection has to do with the redemptive history. Thus death itself, in the New Testament, is viewed entirely form the standpoint of that redemptive history, and precisely for this reason it is taken seriously, in all its horror, as the thing radically opposed to God, as the “last enemy” (I Cor. 15:26). This is the Biblical conception of death, from the Genesis story, where the way to the tree of life is barred for the first men after they have let themselves be misled into disobedience by the serpent – death is the “wages of sin” (Rom. 5:12; 6:23) – on to the last book of the Bible, the Apocalypse of John, where death is cast into the “lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14). Thus death inspires even Jesus with “trembling and horror” in Gethsemane (Mark 14:33). It is thus not at all conceived of as a “friend” and liberator from prison, nor as the “natural” transfer into another form of existence, as the Greek philosopher regards it…Resurrection faith…is only possible on Biblical ground, where all death, decay, and withering is a process that is opposed to God and is set in motion only by the sin of men. In this Biblical view, death and continued life after death do not constitute an organic natural process; rather, mighty powers stand here in conflict. When in the Bible life comes out of death, a miracle is necessary. Therefore Jesus says to the Sadducees…that they are ignorant not only of the Scripture but also of the “power of God” (Mark 12:24; cf. also Eph. 1:19f.)…Resurrection ceases to be only an object of hope; it is faith, and in particular faith in a fact, the resurrection of Christ, which has already occurred at the mid-point of time. It is no longer possible to say, “We shall arise,” without saying at the same time, “Christ has risen!” This is the new thing in the resurrection in the New Testament. The resurrection is no longer spoken of merely in the future tense, but also in the past: the resurrection of the body has already occurred! One has really risen from the dead, and indeed finally, not merely in the preliminary way in which arose the daughter of Jairus, the young man at Nain, or Lazarus, who must all die again. But this means that death is already conquered (Acts 2:24). If it was not able to hold in its power over the one man, then its power over men is broken. Even if the others must still die, yet the omnipotence of death over men is once and for all ended…through the fact that Christ is risen, he is the “firstfruits of them that slept.”…With regard also to our resurrection a different present situation has come into being through the fact that there is now one body whose substance is no longer flesh but spirit. It means something for the present that at least one resurrection body, that of Christ, already exists now. Thereby the resurrection power, the Holy Spirit, has already entered into the realm of the physical. That will happen only at the end, namely the resurrection of bodies, is already reality in Christ…To be sure, all our human rising before the end of the days is only partial; the transformation of our fleshly body into the spiritual body is reserved for the future. But this does not mean that prior to that future date the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit can be operative only in our “inner life.” Rather, according to the New Testament, the Holy Spirit operates even now upon the physical; even now he restrains, at least for a moment, the power of death, which in spite of the defeat which it has already met still continues to exercise its claim upon men; this temporary restraining of death through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit constitutes the deeper meaning of all the New Testament healings of the sick and raisings of the dead. Miracles of healing and of raising the dead belong together. Even the resurrection miracles effected by Jesus in the Gospels do not represent the final transformation of the physical body, inasmuch as what is raised is only a physical body which again is corruptible; but these raisings of the dead, like the healings of the sick, do indicate that since Christ and in Christ the resurrection power is already at work.”[1]

The purpose of quoting the very lengthy passage above is to demonstrate the connection between the Kingdom of God, as effected by the Incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus, and as manifested in His ministry and through the Church, and its effect on pre-parousia death and its precursor, suffering. Cullmann also has an interesting, if controversial angle on a topic that frequently exercises Christians, namely what happens to Christians who die before the parousia and Resurrection of the Dead as expounded above. I am not sure I agree with that aspect of his theology; I cannot fully accept, in the light of Paul’s comments that they “sleep in Christ” (sleep is for me a pleasant experience normally and one where the perception of the passage of time is altered and frequently compressed) and that he himself wishes to go to be with Christ through death, that death should be “filled with horror.” Nevertheless, to our particular investigation, I believe that Cullmann’s contribution is invaluable.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that in 1Cor 15 the main point of the Gospel with respect to Christ is served in "His resurrection".

In the same way even the benefits to the saints as far as their actually getting eternal life - is again focused on the point in time of their resurrection "at His coming".

1Cor 15
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.[/b]

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, [b]when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The [b]last enemy that will be abolished is death.

 

[BobRyan]

How does the spirit go to God and still be dormant and sleep?

Scripture?

in our spirit we worship God, we remember what God has done for us, in our spirit we give thanks and praise to God - we think about who He is and what He has done.

All that "ceases" at death.


This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

As I said before - these kinds of texts may not be very popular - but we all have read them and I for one can not ignore them.

 

[grahame]

(Luke 23:42) "And he (the thief on the cross) said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

 

[BobRyan]

The point is - the spirit of man departs and goes to God at death - but in that form it is dormant. And this is why God say he is "not the god of the dead" it is because the dead do not offer praise or worship to God.

John 11 "Lazarus sleeps". "Lazarus IS dead".

Not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps"

The person is dormant -- the body is dead and decaying

in Matt 22 this is why Christ insists that the "only solution" to the fact that God calls Himself the God of those who have died -- is that there MUST be a future resurrection.

But in 1Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise first".

 

[BobRyan]

(Luke 23:42) "And he (the thief on the cross) said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee today thou SHALT be with me in paradise."

John 20 points out the between the crucifixion and resurrection Christ had not yet been to heaven to the place of His Father's throne.

And yet we are told in Rev 2 and 21 that this IS where Paradise IS.

 

[Allan]

in our spirit we worship God, we remember what God has done for us, in our spirit we give thanks and praise to God - we think about who He is and what He has done.

All that "ceases" at death.


This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

As I said before - these kinds of texts may not be very popular - but we all have read them and I for one can not ignore them.

I notice you completely ignore the Story of Lazarus and Rich Man.
Both are awake and alive though not bodily in their respective places.
Lazarus in Abrahams bosom and the Rich Man in Hell.
The Rich man pleads to someone be SENT TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE. Why?
To TELL HIS BROTHERS so they DO NOT COME TO THIS PLACE.

First, in your view this is not possible for the conversation to be taking place at all.

Second, Why send anyone anywhere to tell anyone anything IF they are ONLY TO AWAKE or come ALIVE AGAIN at a rapture event where ONLY THE DEAD ARE (saved in one and the lost in the other) This makes the whole story a wild lie at best.

Third, the story itself states that at death they immediately went to the respective places and did not lay in a dormant Soul sleep.

 

[Allan]

The point is - the spirit of man departs and goes to God at death - but in that form it is dormant. And this is why God say he is "not the god of the dead" it is because the dead do not offer praise or worship to God.

John 11 "Lazarus sleeps". "Lazarus IS dead".

Not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps"

The person is dormant -- the body is dead and decaying

in Matt 22 this is why Christ insists that the "only solution" to the fact that God calls Himself the God of those who have died -- is that there MUST be a future resurrection.

But in 1Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise first".

God is not the God of the dead because He is speaking of the spiritually dead who are NOT ALIVE in Christ Jesus. He is not their God whom they will serve, though this does not negate the fact His IS God. It simply reveals that they have not chosen Him as THeir God and come Alive in Christ. He is the God of the Living (saved).

How come you alagorize so much of scripture and yet when a true alagory is set forth (sleep/dead) you deny it??

 

[David Lamb]

Eternal life is not received until the 1Thess 4 and Rev 20 "event" of the age to come.

Yet Jesus said in John 6.47:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life."​

The Greek word translated "has" is (I am told) in the present tense. The new life which Jesus came to bring begins in the here-and-now. Writing to the Christians at Colossae, Paul says in Colossians 2.13-15:

13 ¶ And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.​

Those Colossians had had physical, temporal life previously. Now, Paul says, Christ has made them alive. Not with bodily, earthly life - they already had that.

 

[grahame]

(Matthew 22:31) "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Which seems to point to the fact that they are alive. Also remember the mount of transfiguration when Moses and Elijah the prophet appeared with Jesus? (Matt 17:2) Also see Acts 23:8 where more of the beliefs of the Sadducees are seen. "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both." Which might explain the words of our Lord in Matthew to the Sadducees. It otherwise seems a strange thing to say in order to prove the resurrection or a future state. For the fact that we are alive in spirit when we die pre-empts the resurrecton.
Isn't this a wonderful salvation that we share folks?