When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[ByGracethroughFaith]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul here identifies: body, soul, and spirit. You have only left room for the body and the soul, saying that the body and the soul make up the person. So what about the spirit of man? Is man's spirit somewhere out there in cyberspace?? Is it lost to the universe, part of the great Brahma?
God considers the spirit part of man also. It is the spirit that differentiates man from animals, as animals also have a soul (nephesh). It is the spirit that lives on forever. It doesn't sleep. It goes straight to heaven or hell after death. It is the spirit that you need to concentrate on, not the soul.

You are pretty well right on here.

I have heard it equated like this:

"The spirit is the rational or thinking part of man.
The soul is the irrational or emotional part of man.
The body is the physical part of man."


BGTF

 

[DHK]

I don't disagree that the spirit of animals may not exist or is quite different from that of human being if any. I don't think this can be an issue at all.
However, Ecclesiastes are the part of the Bible. It is not the second class Bible. Also, Ruach of the animal is not found there only.

Words are often defined by context. If you ignore the context and plug in your pre-conceived idea of the word you will misunderstand much of the Bible. Words are used in different ways according to the context in which they are used. Eccesiastes is not a second class book, and neither is the book of Esther although the word "God" is not even found in it.
But the context cannot be ignored (of Ecclesiastes). Solomon, as king of Israel, and being given more wisdom than any man alive, has the means to explore every avenue of life to find satisfction and happiness. He tries to find it in merriment, materialism, riches, fame, etc. But he always come back to the same conclusion: Vanity of vanities saith the preacher; all is vanity. That is theme of the book. He shows that from man's perspective life without God is vanity--useless. So any verse taken out of this context is also useless. If you don't understand the outlay and context of the book, how can you understand the verses in the book?

Ezekiel 1:20 and 10:17 says Ruach of the living creatures, though they are like the angels.

You have demonstrated my point very well here about context. Animals don't have spirits. The creatures don't refer to animals. The context indicates that. Even as perhaps you noticed, the creatures identified in Ezekiel 10 are identified as cherubim, or angelic beings--spirit beings just as we are. We also are creatures--part of God's creation.

The living creature (Hay) is translated as Beast in Gen 1,2. And Gen 6:17 can be translated differently if the choice of the translator is made differently
to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life ( Ruach of the Life).
All flesh includes all the animals in that context.

You are doing what cults do. Cults tend to fixate on a "key-hole" method of interpretation, whereas they attach one meaning to one word and force that meaning into every instance that that word regardless of the context. That is not proper hermeneutics.
The word ruach can mean: wind, breath, life, spirit, etc. depending on the context. The teaching of the Bible--animals don't have spirits.

If the animals have the spirit, it must be different this way.
1) they go down to the earth, then are destroyed and disappear.
2) they are not eternal being, have no eternal existance, are not responsible for their behaviors, nor have the next life, while human spirits are eternal and responsible for their behaviors.
3) Spirits of the animal are not the place where the Holy Spirit dwells as they were not created in the likeness of God, and therefore they cannot worship God.
4) Therefore the spirit of animal if any is totally different from the spirit of human being.

This doesn't contradict the context of the whole Bible.

IF--Your IF is wrong. When you start with a wrong premise you end up with wrong conclusions. And that is what you have done.

 

[Eliyahu]

Words are often defined by context. If you ignore the context and plug in your pre-conceived idea of the word you will misunderstand much of the Bible. Words are used in different ways according to the context in which they are used. Eccesiastes is not a second class book, and neither is the book of Esther although the word "God" is not even found in it.
But the context cannot be ignored (of Ecclesiastes). Solomon, as king of Israel, and being given more wisdom than any man alive, has the means to explore every avenue of life to find satisfction and happiness. He tries to find it in merriment, materialism, riches, fame, etc. But he always come back to the same conclusion: Vanity of vanities saith the preacher; all is vanity. That is theme of the book. He shows that from man's perspective life without God is vanity--useless. So any verse taken out of this context is also useless. If you don't understand the outlay and context of the book, how can you understand the verses in the book?
You have demonstrated my point very well here about context. Animals don't have spirits. The creatures don't refer to animals. The context indicates that. Even as perhaps you noticed, the creatures identified in Ezekiel 10 are identified as cherubim, or angelic beings--spirit beings just as we are. We also are creatures--part of God's creation.
You are doing what cults do. Cults tend to fixate on a "key-hole" method of interpretation, whereas they attach one meaning to one word and force that meaning into every instance that that word regardless of the context. That is not proper hermeneutics.
The word ruach can mean: wind, breath, life, spirit, etc. depending on the context. The teaching of the Bible--animals don't have spirits.
IF--Your IF is wrong. When you start with a wrong premise you end up with wrong conclusions. And that is what you have done.

You have proven Ecclesiastes is not the Bible.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. The Scripture already says what sleep means; it means death (John 11:12-14). Every other mention of sleep must be understood in light of that. To fall asleep is to die.

You are bringing the evidence from the verses in the argument. However, you cannot answer the reason why Jesus said "sleep" Is sleep the same as Death? I already mentioned the reason why He used " sleep" is because some one or something was sleeping. What do you think the souls are doing if they are active, not dormant? Are they praising God? or Are they crying all the time? Are they accepting the prayers as the RCC claims?
If they are crying or active after the death, would Jesus say Lazarus is asleep? Jesus would have know what the soul of Lazarus was doing, what was he doing? Jesus was saying he was asleep, you may be saying he was praising God. So there must be a difference between your statement and what Jesus said.

2. Jesus says to sleep is to die. I still haven't found that Scripture which says the soul sleeps at death.

I never saw any verse the souls are doing or working after the death. Simply any person fell asleep after the death, Bible says all the time.

I already mentioned that the Martyrs cried only before they went into the Rest. God commanded they should rest until the full number of the martyrs are fullfilled.

Do you think the Martyrs were crying all the time since their death?
There is no explanation how the martyrs started the crying, but as I mentioned in the first post, God has the authority to wake up the sleeping souls, and that's why Jesus called the Lazarus.
Likewise, when Aposle John was led by the Holy Spirit, for him to see the Revelation, the Lamb opened the seal and showed the scene. The martyrs might have been waken up awhile by Him, and they cried. Otherwise, would they have been crying thousand years since the first martyr Abel? What were they doing before?

Another explanation is that teh Lamb showed and John saw the scene of the martyrs entering the place under the Altar. Eventually they were ordered to take rest.

What are you saying they are doing after the death?

Are they playing chess if the Rest doesn't mean the sleep? Are they studying?

 

[DHK]

You have proven Ecclesiastes is not the Bible.

Then you misunderstand what Scripture is.
Who said:
"Hast God said?"
"Thou shalt not surely die."

2 Chronicles 18:11 And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
--Study this passage of Scripture.
Answer
1. Is it the Word of God?
2. Are these words that are spoken, the "words" of God?
3. Are they accurately recorded as "the Word of God"?
4. To be part of God's Word does every statement have to be true, or just truly and accurately recorded?
5. Are there lies in the Bible? Are they accurately recorded lies?
6. Do these lies diminish these verses from being the inspired Word of God?
7. Ananias and Sapphira "lied" against God. Should we therefore take out that portion of Scripture from our Bibles? A lie is not truth. But the lie was accurately recorded as a lie. That is what inspiration promises us.

 

[TCGreek]

You are bringing the evidence from the verses in the argument. However, you cannot answer the reason why Jesus said "sleep" Is sleep the same as Death? I already mentioned the reason why He used " sleep" is because some one or something was sleeping.

1. The Bible defines death as the spirit's separation from the body.

2. When Jesus and the NT writers use sleep as a euphemish for death, they are saying that the dead in gone and therefore not conscious of life as we know it--there's no relating between the dead and the living.

What do you think the souls are doing if they are active, not dormant? Are they praising God? or Are they crying all the time? Are they accepting the prayers as the RCC claims?
If they are crying or active after the death, would Jesus say Lazarus is asleep? Jesus would have know what the soul of Lazarus was doing, what was he doing? Jesus was saying he was asleep, you may be saying he was praising God. So there must be a difference between your statement and what Jesus said.

3. At death, some go to heaven and some to hell. Those who go to heaven are in the presence of the Lord, "resting from their labors" (Rev 14:13).

I never saw any verse the souls are doing or working after the death. Simply any person fell asleep after the death, Bible says all the time.

4. Death is the separation of the spirit from the body (Jas 2:26), so that when Jesus raised the little girl, it was her "spirit returning to her empty body."

5. I'm a dichotomist and see texts like 1Thess. 5:23 and Heb 4:12 as conveying holistic intensity.

6. In the NT, I perceive of soul as referring to life itself (Matt 16:25; Lk 9:24; John 10:17), where at times soul and spirit are used interchangeably (1 Cor 5:5).

Do you think the Martyrs were crying all the time since their death?
There is no explanation how the martyrs started the crying, but as I mentioned in the first post, God has the authority to wake up the sleeping souls, and that's why Jesus called the Lazarus.
Likewise, when Aposle John was led by the Holy Spirit, for him to see the Revelation, the Lamb opened the seal and showed the scene. The martyrs might have been waken up awhile by Him, and they cried. Otherwise, would they have been crying thousand years since the first martyr Abel? What were they doing before?

Another explanation is that teh Lamb showed and John saw the scene of the martyrs entering the place under the Altar. Eventually they were ordered to take rest.

What are you saying they are doing after the death?

Are they playing chess if the Rest doesn't mean the sleep? Are they studying?

7. At least we both agree that they are resting, per the biblical record. But is "rest" to mean soul sleep?

8. I have not seen one Scripture tha says the soul sleeps at death.

9. But I've seen Scripture where the spirit leaves the body and even return to give life.

 

[Eliyahu]

The Dwelling Place of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
--The Holy Spirit dwells within the body of every believer. This speaks of the Holy Spirit only.

Where in the body does the Spirit dwell? in the Hand or in the leg? or in the brain?
What the Bible says is that once a person is born again by Holy Spirit, the whole body is owned by the Holy Spirit and He dwells in that person, and thereby the body becomes the Temple. We died with the Christ at the Cross, and Christ lives in us, then our bodies are the Temple of God the Holy Spirit. Our Spirit is not separated from the Holy Spirit, because our spirit is filled with the Holy spirit. Our spirit becomes like a branch of the Holy Spirit as it is filled with the Holy Spirit. This is why your spirit and my spirit are the same, one Spirit:laugh:

Read Gal 5:16 Walk in the Spirit. The capital letters are the translators choice. The original texts have no distinction with capital letters. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit. The born again believers have the Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the Dead. The Bible often says the Holy Spirit dwellling in the Believers as the Spirit simply. You have well proven that unbelievers have the spirit aswell. Then where is the spirit gone after we receive the Holy Spirit? Does it disappear? It is the element of the human beings where the Holy Spirit dwells. That's why your refered verses say

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior

Before the salvation, the spirit of any person was rebellious or hardened like this:

Deut 2:30
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day

How can the spirit become the one rejoicing and praising God?
It is because it is filled with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore Paul said this:
Ephe 5:18 Be filled with the Spirit.

The Nature of the Spirit of Man
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
--As Mary shows man has a spirit apart from the Holy Spirit. It was her spirit (small “s” in the KJV) that worshiped God. This was apart from the Holy Spirit.

You misunderstand quite a lot here.
She could rejoice in God and praised the Lord because her spirit was filled with the Holy Spirit. I didn't expect you didn't know this basic truth!
Read here:
1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Do you think Mary could praise without the Holy Spirit?

Our spirit is that part of ourselves which was created that we might have communion with God. It is a part of our person. It is the spiritual part. It is active. It can be active for evil or for good. Many unbelievers use their spirit to communicate with evil, even with Satan himself, if not with his myriads of demons. Nevertheless everyone is created with a spirit. We see Mary worshipping God when she says my spirit has rejoiced.

No problem with this statement.

The Definition of Death
Luke 8:54-55 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
--The spirit in death had separated from the body. The girl had died, because of that separation. Death is separation. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body. But note that the spirit came again, and then she arose immediately. Once the spirit was joined again with the body she came to life. Jesus gave her life. She was raised from the dead. This is consistent with all of Scripture.

Where is the soul gone then? It doesn't prove that the Souls are active, nor disprove that the souls are asleep. Souls are awaken at the command of God. Jesus has such authority. Soul may go with the spirit, to the Lord.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Consistent with the above Scripture we find the definition of death here also—separation of the spirit from the body. This verse states it very clearly and there is no argument against it. Death is when the spirit separates from the body and the body lies there lifeless without the spirit. The spirit is separated. Death is separation in every case in the Bible.

No argument on it. It doesn't prove that the souls are active after death. When the Soul and Spirit depart the Body, body starts to decay, it doesn't sleep. It is not awaken. No problem there!

The Nature of a Spirit
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
--A spirit is formless, and has not flesh and bones. The disciples were not looking at a “ghost.” It was Christ in the flesh. Both unsaved and saved alike have spirits.

Yes, correct. Unsaved have the spirits. No problem. It doesn't disprove the Soul Sleep.

Purpose of our Spirit
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
--The purpose of our spirit is to worship God.

Correct, and the spirit is the linkage between God and man.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
--Stephen refers to his own spirit, and calls upon the Lord to receive his spirit. Every man has his own spirit.

Also, please note the next verse.
Acts 7:60 When he said this, he fell asleep.
His body died, what fell asleep? Is Bible telling something which doesn't exist? Doesn't "Sleep" mean "Alive"? Can we say dead body is still sleeping?

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
--Paul refers to his own spirit. In this case his spirit was stirred or provoked within himself, and therefore he reasoned with those in the synagogue. But it was his spirit, not the Holy Spirit, though the Holy Spirit may have prompted him.

Yes, the spirit has the emotion too.

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
--“The spirit” again refers to the spirit of Paul. He was so constrained to go to Jerusalem that the verse uses very strong language—“bound in the spirit,” as if he was so tied in bondage that he could do nothing else.

This is the typical case of the Spiritual Man whose soul is entirely devoted for and coupled with the Spirit. Paul was the typical spiritual man.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
--It seems like the Sadducees are like the SDA’s or vice versa. They denied the existence of the spirit. For the spirit is immortal. That is the part that they hated—the immortality of the spirit. But it is immortal, and will never die nor sleep.

Spirit is immortal, but it doesn't mean that soul doesn't sleep. Sleep means Alive. Souls never die. never disappear, but sleep after death.
This doesn't prove your argument. You must present what the souls are doing after Death. Do the souls cultivate the plants? or do dancing? or continue to study the Bible? Do they work for the Sanctification in the heaven? or do they continue to praise the Lord?

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
--Again Paul refers to his own spirit. This time it is in the context of prayer. In his spirit he prays for the people at Rome.

His spirit was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--This is an excellent verse which cannot be disputed. One can see both the Holy Spirit and one’s own spirit as separate entities in the believer in this verse. One might rightly ask the question: “Does the Holy Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?” If it doesn’t you have serious problems. It is one of the evidences of true Christianity. There is the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the believer. One bears witness with the other. They are both separate from the other.

I already explained this above. Without the Holy Spirit, no one can praise the Lord. Our spirit is like a branch office supported by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is like the Head Office. You misunderstood quite a lot. If anyone can praise the Lord without being born again by the Holy Spirit, then you are correct. If Adolf Hitler truly praised the Lord, you are correct.

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--Here again is a very good verse teaching what the unsaved have. The unsaved have the spirit of the world as opposed to the believer who have the spirit which is of God. It is obvious then that both saved and unsaved alike have a spirit. One is regenerated; the other is not. But both have a spirit. The spirit is immortal.

As if I had not known it before.

It(spirit) does not sleep. At death it will go straight to heaven or hell, depending on whether you have received or rejected Christ. [/quote}

As for the spirit, I cannot say anything here yet. We are talking about the soul. Please don't be confused between Soul and Spirit.
As for the Heaven or Hell, it will be after the Millennium, but before that, we go to the Paradise ( not the Heaven), Unbelievers will go to the Hades ( not the Hell=gehenna) which is the waiting place for the unbelievers before the judgment. They wait for the Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment. Otherwise, if everything is decided immediately after the death, there will be no need for the LOrd Jesus to have the Day of Great Judgment. Unbelievers will be resurrected for the Judgment, and they will be paid for their behaviors exactly which they conducted during their life time.
It doesn't prove Soul's activity or disprove the dormant state of the souls after death.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
--Why? Tomorrow may be too late.

Good example that the souls must accept the Salvation.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
--Again Paul refers to his spirit. It is his judgement that will be with the Corinthians when they discipline that erring brother.

How could the spirit of Paul be with the Corinthians there? It was because his spirit was filled with the Holy Spirit who is the Omni-present. Good example that the believers spirits are filled with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
--This time he refers to the spirit of the erring brother. Every man has a spirit.

Good evidence supporting my claim, Thanks to DHK!
Flesh is destroyed, it is not to be awaken! Flesh doesn't sleep. Then why does Jesus say " sleep" and the Bible as well?

1 Corinthians 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.
--Note: My spirit and your spirit. Both are mentioned. All have a spirit.

No one here denies it.

2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.
--Paul’s spirit found no rest when he couldn’t find Titus.

Though our spirit is filled with the Holy Spirit, we still have the identity for our spirit. No Christian believer can be full of Holy Spirit only, the believers had their own spirits as well. The Holy Spirit knew the whole situation, but the spirit of Paul didn't know it. This doesn't prove the souls are active, nor disprove the sleep of the soul. Souls are still alive after death but are dormant, taking rest.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
--Our spirit must be cleansed. Thus this cannot be speaking of the Holy Spirit.

As if I had not known it.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
--The unsaved have the spirit of disobedience. They are born with it. They must be born again to receive the spirit of God.

As if I had opposed to it and had not known it.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
--The soul and spirit can be cut asunder. This is a difficult verse for the SDA.
If the soul is the person, how can the person be cut asunder. Is not the spirit included in this operation? How do you account for the spirit here? The spirit here is the spirit of man.

Again the excellent point that support the separation and distinction between Soul and Spirit. Noboy claimed that the Soul is everything of a person. Soul is an element of a human being, and the spirit and the body are as well. Yes the spirit is the spirit of the man, regardless of Believer or Unbeliever.
You are saying as if I had not known it, and as if you had not read my previous posts.

James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
--This also is the spirit of man, the spirit that causes us to lust to envy. It is not the Holy Spirit, and yet he is writing to Christians.
I left out many more verses that I could have expounded on. There are so many of them.
These are but a few that you can answer for me.

This refutes someone's misunderstanding that the Spirit is for the rational reasoning and the soul is for the emotion.
The Spirit itself has the emotion, reasoning, and can be troubled.
As I mentioned, every human being has the spirit, regardless of Saved or Unsaved.

You brought so many verses assuming that I claimed the unbelievers do not have the spirits. But I said our spirits were broken, were out of order due to the sins. As soon as the Holy Spirit comes into our heart, we are born again, and our spirits are restored as the Holy Spirit dwells within us.
Paraoh's spirit was troubled, and many other unbelievers had the spirits but their spirits couldn't praise the Lord without the Holy Spirit.

None of your references could disprove the Soul Sleep, nor prove the activity of the souls.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. The Bible defines death as the spirit's separation from the body.

Yes, correct. Then the souls are asleep.

2. When Jesus and the NT writers use sleep as a euphemish for death, they are saying that the dead in gone and therefore not conscious of life as we know it--there's no relating between the dead and the living.

They called the Death as Sleep because Souls are sleeping.
As I repeatedly recommended you, please check all 400 cases of souls appearing in the Bible, then you will find the Soul represent the person, though it is not all of the person.


[/quote]
3. At death, some go to heaven and some to hell. Those who go to heaven are in the presence of the Lord, "resting from their labors" (Rev 14:13).[/quote]

Your own reference support my claim. After the death, every soul is resting. What do they do after Death? Are they watching the earth?

After the death, the dead are going to the Hades and Paradise which are the waiting places before the Judgment. You sound like there will be no judgment as the judgment is done immediately.

4. Death is the separation of the spirit from the body (Jas 2:26), so that when Jesus raised the little girl, it was her "spirit returning to her empty body."

Correct. It doesn't disprove the Soul Sleep. Soul and the Spirit are coming back according to the command of Lord.

5. I'm a dichotomist and see texts like 1Thess. 5:23 and Heb 4:12 as conveying holistic intensity.

You can invent a new Bible too.

6. In the NT, I perceive of soul as referring to life itself (Matt 16:25; Lk 9:24; John 10:17), where at times soul and spirit are used interchangeably (1 Cor 5:5).

Not interchangeable. I believe the Hebrew writers knew the difference very well, between Nephesh and Ruach, and therefore chose Pushke and Pneuma separately. Even Mary used Soul and Spirit separately ( LK 1:46-7). I believe the Bible on the basis of Word to Word.

7. At least we both agree that they are resting, per the biblical record. But is "rest" to mean soul sleep?

Not necessarily. However, we must admit 2 things:
- Sleep is the ultimate state of the Rest
- Bible and Jesus used the term Sleep. Then they must have referred to something or someone actually sleeping.

8. I have not seen one Scripture tha says the soul sleeps at death.

I have not seen any Bible souls are active after the death, either.
Please check the whole usages of souls in the Bible over 400 times. Then one thing evident is that Soul represent each person.
e.g. The soul that sins shall die ( Eze 18:4)

9. But I've seen Scripture where the spirit leaves the body and even return to give life.

It doesn't mean that the Spirit is active and depart and returns back on its own. After the death, it departs from the Body, then it( soul) rests, then at the command of God. This doesn't refute the Soul Sleep.

 

[Eliyahu]

What are the souls doing after the death, if they don't sleep?

Are they holding a conference or Bible Study meeting? or Are they arguing each other? or Are they holding a multi-national Soccer Game or World Cup? Or are they cultivating the farms? What are they doing? How many hours are they working per day?

1. Mt 26:45 - Jesus identifies the Rest with the Sleep here.

Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

2. 1 Thess 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Didn't Paul say that he wants to be present with the Lord ( 2Cor 5)?
Would he walk around in Jesus?

3. Re 6:11
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

4. Re 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Are they praying for you? Are they accepting your prayers as RCC claims?
If they do anything like conference or meeting or Bible study, then they will pray for you as well. Then you may have to pray to them as well.

You must be drunken with the wine of RCC or any other Catholics.

Wake up from the Drunkeness please.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, correct. Then the souls are asleep.

1. But this doctrine must be created, for it is not taught anywhere, except by your gymnastics.

They called the Death as Sleep because Souls are sleeping.
As I repeatedly recommended you, please check all 400 cases of souls appearing in the Bible, then you will find the Soul represent the person, though it is not all of the person.

2. Yet, not one of those references says the soul is sleeping at death. Surely, if it were a bible doctrine, if should have shown up. But it hasn't, except by your invention.

Your own reference support my claim. After the death, every soul is resting. What do they do after Death? Are they watching the earth?

3. When is "rest" always the same as sleep.

After the death, the dead are going to the Hades and Paradise which are the waiting places before the Judgment. You sound like there will be no judgment as the judgment is done immediately.

4. Where is Paradise?

5. What is the meaning of Heb 9:27?

6. What is the meaning of Phil 1:23?

7. I do not stand alone with my view of man's dichotomy; countless, conservative Christian scholars share the same.

8. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul with all your strength and with all your mind" (Luke 10:27). Are we to understand man now as a four-part being?

Not interchangeable. I believe the Hebrew writers knew the difference very well, between Nephesh and Ruach, and therefore chose Pushke and Pneuma separately. Even Mary used Soul and Spirit separately ( LK 1:46-7). I believe the Bible on the basis of Word to Word.

9. As a song, Mary was using what is called a Hebrew parallelism, in this case, a synonymous one, where the second line says the same thing as the first line. This is all over the Psalms and Proverbs and the poetic literature.

"Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity

And cleanse me from my sin"

10. Luke 1:46-7 proves my point:

My soul exalts the Lord

And My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Not necessarily. However, we must admit 2 things:
- Sleep is the ultimate state of the Rest
- Bible and Jesus used the term Sleep. Then they must have referred to something or someone actually sleeping.

11. When the Bible give me that definition then I'll go with it. I'm still waiting on the Bible.

I have not seen any Bible souls are active after the death, either.
Please check the whole usages of souls in the Bible over 400 times. Then one thing evident is that Soul represent each person.
e.g. The soul that sins shall die ( Eze 18:4)

12. What is the Bibles definition of death?

It doesn't mean that the Spirit is active and depart and returns back on its own. After the death, it departs from the Body, then it( soul) rests, then at the command of God. This doesn't refute the Soul Sleep.

13. Still the verdict is out on soul sleep.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I admit that I have read none of the posts, not even the OP. I am simply giving my view re whether we go directly to heaven when we die.

I think that the answer is no. In my reading of the Scriptures, our ultimate destination (heaven) is a remade physical earth. That earth is not yet in existence - creation is still a-groanin'. Those who have died in Christ are either "sleeping" or in some other "non-heaven-ish" state of existence. Heaven is in the future when Christ redeems the created world (as per 1 Cor 15 and Romans 8).

GE
'Heaven' - 'heaven' is a metaphor; a figure, for - in this matter - Jesus Christ. One must be received in Him and have life received in Him BEFORE one dies, or else ....
That's why Paul uses the Presence :'It's now or never', as the song goes. We have ETERNAL LIFE in Christ and through Christ NOW, and IN this very life, enter through the portals of death, into 'heaven' - this side of the grave, or we shall not enter the Kingdom of 'heaven', ever!

 

[Eliyahu]

1. But this doctrine must be created, for it is not taught anywhere, except by your gymnastics.

You must be repeatedly ignoring my requests. Have you read all the verses of Bible containing soul or souls?
Then you can confirm that the soul represents the person in most cases.
I believe there are more than 500 verses containing soul or souls in the Bible. You can confirm the Soul= the person.
Then Jesus and Bible said the dead people are sleeping. I showed you enough verses. Your argument is just nothing but for the argument itself. Not only myself, Anabaptists and many other believers believed it.

Genesis 12:5

And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

Here we can learn that Abrahm was the soul winner by preaching the Truth of the LORD. Bible didn't say he brought the bodies, nor spirits, but the souls.


Genesis 46:18
These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls
46:22
These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

46:26
These are the sons of Bilhah, which Laban gave unto Rachel his daughter, and she bare these unto Jacob: all the souls were seven.

46:27
And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

Exodus 1:5
And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.


Why does the Bible continue to call them " Souls"? Isn't it because Souls represent each person?

Check all the souls in the Bible here, again.


http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...1&word=soul&section=0&version=kjv&language=en
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...ord=soul&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=souls

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...ord=souls&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=soul
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...rd=souls&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=souls

2. Yet, not one of those references says the soul is sleeping at death. Surely, if it were a bible doctrine, if should have shown up. But it hasn't, except by your invention.

Not one of the verses say the souls are not sleeping either. Bible says the dead are sleeping. What part is sleeping while the body is decaying?

3. When is "rest" always the same as sleep.

Not all the rest means Sleep, But all the sleep means Rest.

4. Where is Paradise?

Where did the Robber go? You are asking the question like the USSR under communists asked the question.

5. What is the meaning of Heb 9:27?

It doesn't deny the Day of Great Judgment.

6. What is the meaning of Phil 1:23?

To be with Christ means Sleeping in Christ. Does it tell you that the dead will enjoy travelling or Soccer Game? What will they do if not rest?

7. I do not stand alone with my view of man's dichotomy; countless, conservative Christian scholars share the same.

Truth is not the Republic of the Fools. Bible stands on it. Don't pervert the Bible according to yoru theology. You will never be able to destroy 1 Thess 5:23, Heb 4:12, more than 500 verses for Souls, more than 500 hundred verses for Spirit.

8. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul with all your strength and with all your mind" (Luke 10:27). Are we to understand man now as a four-part being?

No, Sir.

9. As a song, Mary was using what is called a Hebrew parallelism, in this case, a synonymous one, where the second line says the same thing as the first line. This is all over the Psalms and Proverbs and the poetic literature.

"Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity

And cleanse me from my sin"

10. Luke 1:46-7 proves my point:

My soul exalts the Lord

And My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Apostle Paul exalted the Lord, Aposlte JOhn praised the LOrd, Apostle Peter rejoiced in the Lord. Are they one person?

11. When the Bible give me that definition then I'll go with it. I'm still waiting on the Bible.

Very good. Then you will find someone are sleeping after death. Bible doesn't tell the lies and say someones are sleeping while they are actually playing Football Game.

12. What is the Bibles definition of death?

Same as your definition, When Spirit and Soul depart the Body for the sleep.

13. Still the verdict is out on soul sleep.

Still the Verdict is for the Soul Sleep, until you can bring the verses where the Souls are active and doing something.

Why can't you show me any verse where the Souls are working, playing, praising, singing, eating?

What can you imagine the souls are doing if they are not Sleeping?

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear TCGReek and DHK,

Please let me know one simple answer from you.


"What are the souls doing after the death, if they are not sleeping? "


YOur answer will calm down the argument quite a lot !


PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

 

[DHK]

Dear TCGReek and DHK,

Please let me know one simple answer from you.


"What are the souls doing after the death, if they are not sleeping? "


YOur answer will calm down the argument quite a lot !


PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

Different people have different ideas about the soul. If you take the view of TCGreek, who I believe said he was a dichotomist, then the soul would be bound with the spirit and would go to heaven. The soul and the spirit are one. The words in many places are interchangeable. But you should ask him. I am not sure. At least at death that is probably what would happen. I have no argument with that.

However, the Bible, one must remember the Bible is not a book of science. It often uses metaphors to describe things that we use in scientific terms today. Let me give you some examples.

First, let's examine the word heart:
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
--What is the heart?
According to this verse it is what you desire, and that comes from your thought processes or your brain.

Matthew 15:18-19 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
--Look what comes out of the heart--all the evil things that we plan to do, when we sin. Adultery is not just an accident. Neither is stealing, bearing false witness, etc. We think about those things first. When we say those are things that are committed in the heart first, we really mean the brain, the mind.

Now the word "soul"
Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
--Here Jesus equates the word soul with the emotion of sorrow, which also comes from the mind.

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
--The soul here also refers to the mind.
It is true that in most cases the soul is bound up with the person. But it is that part of the person that refers to the mind. Thus in today's language, when the body dies the "soul" or the mind also dies. It is the brain that keeps the body alive. It does not sleep. Nothing sleeps. Sleep is either a synonym or metaphor (which ever way you want to look at it) for physical death. It is the spirit that leaves the body and lives on for all eternity. The soul is rather irrelvant. Whether the soul and the spirit become one at death, or the soul dies as the brain dies the Bible is not clear. It really doesn't matter. What does matter is that the spirit is separated from the body and lives on for all eternity. It never dies. It will either go to heaven or hell. As the wise man put it:
At death: Prepare to meet thy maker. (NOT: Prepare to sleep thy soul.)

 

[Eliyahu]

Different people have different ideas about the soul. If you take the view of TCGreek, who I believe said he was a dichotomist, then the soul would be bound with the spirit and would go to heaven. The soul and the spirit are one. The words in many places are interchangeable. But you should ask him. I am not sure. At least at death that is probably what would happen. I have no argument with that.

The soul is rather irrelvant. Whether the soul and the spirit become one at death, or the soul dies as the brain dies the Bible is not clear. It really doesn't matter. What does matter is that the spirit is separated from the body and lives on for all eternity. It never dies. It will either go to heaven or hell. As the wise man put it:
At death: Prepare to meet thy maker. (NOT: Prepare to sleep thy soul.)

You didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask you where the souls are going after the death, but I asked you what the souls are doing after death if they don't sleep.

Now you suggested the possibility of death of Soul. I hope you don't hold it. The souls never die and they will be punished if they had not believed in Jesus.

If you said the soul goes to the heaven, what are they doing now if they don't sleep?

 

[DHK]

You didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask you where the souls are going after the death, but I asked you what the souls are doing after death if they don't sleep.

Now you suggested the possibility of death of Soul. I hope you don't hold it. The souls never die and they will be punished if they had not believed in Jesus.

If you said the soul goes to the heaven, what are they doing now if they don't sleep?

I did answer your question. In fact I answered it very clearly. You just don't like the answer I gave.

 

[TCGreek]

You must be repeatedly ignoring my requests. Have you read all the verses of Bible containing soul or souls?
Then you can confirm that the soul represents the person in most cases.
I believe there are more than 500 verses containing soul or souls in the Bible. You can confirm the Soul= the person.

1. I agree in most instances the soul=the person. I have no problem with that. I't clear from Scripture.

Then Jesus and Bible said the dead people are sleeping. I showed you enough verses. Your argument is just nothing but for the argument itself. Not only myself, Anabaptists and many other believers believed it.

2. And we know that for Jesus, sleep refers to death, the spirit leaving the body, and in the case of the little girl, we see the spirit, returning to signal life again (Luke 8:55). Scripture is silent on the soul.

Genesis 12:5

And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

Here we can learn that Abrahm was the soul winner by preaching the Truth of the LORD. Bible didn't say he brought the bodies, nor spirits, but the souls.


Genesis 46:18
These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls
46:22
These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

46:26
These are the sons of Bilhah, which Laban gave unto Rachel his daughter, and she bare these unto Jacob: all the souls were seven.

46:27
And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

Exodus 1:5
And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.


Why does the Bible continue to call them " Souls"? Isn't it because Souls represent each person?

Check all the souls in the Bible here, again.


http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...1&word=soul&section=0&version=kjv&language=en
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...ord=soul&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=souls

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...ord=souls&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=soul
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineS...rd=souls&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=souls

3. Soul=person, I agree.

Not one of the verses say the souls are not sleeping either. Bible says the dead are sleeping. What part is sleeping while the body is decaying?

4. Your problem is this: you are not willing to deal with the silence of Scripture. Instead, you are compelled to build a doctrine off silence.

5. Go with what the Bible does say: at death the spirit leaves a person and this is called sleep (Luke 8:52-55; John 11:12-14).

Not all the rest means Sleep, But all the sleep means Rest.

6. And what does the Bible say?

Where did the Robber go? You are asking the question like the USSR under communists asked the question.

It doesn't deny the Day of Great Judgment.
To be with Christ means Sleeping in Christ. Does it tell you that the dead will enjoy travelling or Soccer Game? What will they do if not rest?
Truth is not the Republic of the Fools. Bible stands on it. Don't pervert the Bible according to yoru theology. You will never be able to destroy 1 Thess 5:23, Heb 4:12, more than 500 verses for Souls, more than 500 hundred verses for Spirit.

7. In both cases we see an intensification: holistic sanctification and the penetrating effect of the Word.

Apostle Paul exalted the Lord, Aposlte JOhn praised the LOrd, Apostle Peter rejoiced in the Lord. Are they one person?

8. I see you have little appreciate for how biblical poetry works.

Very good. Then you will find someone are sleeping after death. Bible doesn't tell the lies and say someones are sleeping while they are actually playing Football Game.

9. What is your point?

Same as your definition, When Spirit and Soul depart the Body for the sleep.

Still the Verdict is for the Soul Sleep, until you can bring the verses where the Souls are active and doing something.

Why can't you show me any verse where the Souls are working, playing, praising, singing, eating?

What can you imagine the souls are doing if they are not Sleeping?

10. I do not have to bring verses to show that the soul is not sleeping, for the Scripture says that when a person dies, the spirit goes to either heaven or hell.

11. Because Scripture already makes it patently obvious that soul and spirit are used interchangeably and the soul refers to the life of a person, I submit that Rev 6:9 is referring to the life fo the person, the spirit that goes to heaven.

 

[DHK]

Obviously, of the two positioins:
If the soul is united with the spirit it goes either directly to heaven or directly to hell (with its spirit). It is the spirit that is important. Focus on it.
Clearly, if the soul is equal to the brain, then it will be resurrected with the body at the resurrection. It doesn't "sleep." It is dead in the aspect that the body is separated from the spirit, and that is all.

 

[Eliyahu]

Obviously, of the two positioins:
If the soul is united with the spirit it goes either directly to heaven or directly to hell (with its spirit). It is the spirit that is important. Focus on it.
Clearly, if the soul is equal to the brain, then it will be resurrected with the body at the resurrection. It doesn't "sleep." It is dead in the aspect that the body is separated from the spirit, and that is all.

You exposed a great problem here.

1. You are confused between brain of the body and the soul, and therefore you leave the possiblity that the Soul may have died and is extinct, which is untrue.
Mt 10:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Brain may be decayed, but the soul is still alive and lives forever.
I thought you never thought about the death of Soul.

2. If you believe that the soul goes to the Heaven, what are they doing now if they do not sleep? This was the repeated question so far.

Please answer " What are the souls of Apostles doing now?"

Read here:
RE 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Re 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

You can see the souls are not extinct after death.

Then they rest after death.

Re 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

NOW,
What are they doing in the Heaven if they don't sleep?