When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Eliyahu]

1. I agree in most instances the soul=the person. I have no problem with that. I't clear from Scripture.

2. And we know that for Jesus, sleep refers to death, the spirit leaving the body, and in the case of the little girl, we see the spirit, returning to signal life again (Luke 8:55). Scripture is silent on the soul.

3. Soul=person, I agree.

Now we found the common language.

4. Your problem is this: you are not willing to deal with the silence of Scripture. Instead, you are compelled to build a doctrine off silence.

True, but if the Bible was explicit, there could be no argument. Here we need the understanding.

5. Go with what the Bible does says: at death the spirit leaves a person and this is called sleep (Luke 8:52-55; John 11:12-14).

Correct. But it doesn't deny that the souls are sleeping.

6. And what does the Bible say?
7. In both cases we see an intensification: holistic sanctification and the penetrating effect of the Word.
8. I see you have little appreciate for how biblical poetry works.
9. What is your point?

10. I do not to bring verses to show that the soul is not sleeping, for the Scripture says that when a person dies, the spirit goes to either heaven or hell.

Simply what are they doing in the Heaven? Are they rebuking you because you don't admit that they are sleeping?

Tell me what are they doing in the Heaven if they don't sleep. Are they building up the houses for the next comers?

11. Because Scripture already makes it patently obvious that soul and spirit are used interchangeably and the soul refers to the life of a person, I submit that Rev 6:9 is referring to the life fo the person, the spirit that goes to heaven.

I disagree, but will leave that to you.


TELL Me this

What are the souls doing in the Heaven if you believe they don't sleep?

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK, TCGreek,

I will tell you what the Apostles are doing now because you don't believe they are sleeping.

Apostles are rebuking you guys because you don't believe that their souls are sleeping !

 

[TCGreek]

Now we found the common language.


True, but if the Bible was explicit, there could be no argument. Here we need the understanding.



Correct. But it doesn't deny that the souls are sleeping.



Simply what are they doing in the Heaven? Are they rebuking you because you don't admit that they are sleeping?

Tell me what are they doing in the Heaven if they don't sleep. Are they building up the houses for the next comers?


I disagree, but will leave that to you.


TELL Me this

What are the souls doing in the Heaven if you believe they don't sleep?

1. Well, we have the four living creatures activities to meditate on. Oh, we also have the 24-elders to meditate on.

2. And apart from the glimpse of Rev. 6:9-11, the Bible is virtually silent on that question. And I respect that silence.

 

[TCGreek]

DHK, TCGreek,

I will tell you what the Apostles are doing now because you don't believe they are sleeping.

Apostles are rebuking you guys because you don't believe that their souls are sleeping !

How are they rebuking us if they are sleeping? Do you rebuke in your sleep?

 

[DHK]

You exposed a great problem here.

1. You are confused between brain of the body and the soul, and therefore you leave the possiblity that the Soul may have died and is extinct, which is untrue.
Mt 10:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Brain may be decayed, but the soul is still alive and lives forever.
I thought you never thought about the death of Soul.

I am not confused at all. There is a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the unjust. IF the soul is connected with the body it will be raised as the body will be raised, and thus will live. This makes perfect sense with verse 28: "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." However you haven't been able to acccept the fact that often soul and spirit are interchangeable in the writings of the NT. Our bodies shall live. Our souls shall live. And that is inspite of death.
What does the Bible say:

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. If you believe that the soul goes to the Heaven, what are they doing now if they do not sleep? This was the repeated question so far.

Please answer " What are the souls of Apostles doing now?"

That depends on how you define soul. Your answer is obvious according to the above definition. I don't need to elaborate on that. Just use common sense.
On the other hand, if you accept that soul and spirit are used interchangeably, and the soul is united with the spirit, then the spirit/soul is in heaven praising God.

Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
--The only ones those phrases can be applicable to are the NT saints. They sang a new song. They were redeemed by the blood of the lamb. That is us. It can be no other. Those redeemed are out of every nation, people, and language. He has made us kings and priests. That also speaks of us. That description can only describe a NT saint--the apostles, and those that followed.

Read here:
RE 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is a more difficult passage. I believe it takes place during the tribulation and refers to some of the martyred Jews. The phrase "their brethren" seems to indicate this. The word rest is simply used in the sense of waiting or having patience. It certainly isn't referring to any kind of sleep.

Re 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

You can see the souls are not extinct after death.

Then they rest after death.

They don't sleep. I said that soul and spirit are used interchangeably. I gave you a general definition of how the word "soul" was often used in the Bible when differentiated from "spirit." You are resorting to cult tactics of hermeneutics again--plugging in one definition of one word everytime that word is used in Scripture. It doesn't work. Context often defines what the definition of the word is. If you ignore context you ignore the definition.

Re 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

NOW,
What are they doing in the Heaven if they don't sleep?

They are praising the Lord:
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[Eliyahu]

How are they rebuking us if they are sleeping? Do you rebuke in your sleep?

Because you wake them up first, they are awake because of your claim, then they rebuke you, then will go to sleep again !

 

[Eliyahu]

1. Well, we have the four living creatures activities to meditate on. Oh, we also have the 24-elders to meditate on.

2. And apart from the glimpse of Rev. 6:9-11, the Bible is virtually silent on that question. And I respect that silence.

Meditation for 2000 years?
What are they thinking? Are they repenting? or Are they watching over you?

 

[DHK]

Let's use some logic here.
1. It has well been established through Scripture that animals have souls, but not a spirit as man does.
2. However, we also know that there is no afterlife for an animal (no soul sleep either).
3. What then happens to the soul of an animal?

The obvious conclusion is that it dies, decays, perishes, along with the body of the animal.
The soul is the life (the brain), that part of the animal which God created and man cannot create. The law of biogenesis states that life only comes from life. Man cannot duplicate life. He can make a robot but he cannot create life. That life is in the mind of man. (So then with the mind I serve the law of God). The soul and mind are the same thing. In the animal both are destroyed. I see no reason to believe the same thing as it applies to man, except in man there is a resurrection.

The important thing is that in man there is an immortal spirit that lives on after death which negates any possible theory of soul sleep. Immediately after death the spirit goes to be with the Lord (or to hell), whichever may be the case. One goes to see their maker. There is no so called sleep. The Bible doesn't teach it. The spirit of man is immortal, whether speaking of the saved or unsaved. Death is separation--always.

 

[TCGreek]

Meditation for 2000 years?
What are they thinking? Are they repenting? or Are they watching over you?

1. We are the ones who need to meditate on those heavenly scenes, not those in heaven.

2. And when we do, "soul sleep" will go away.

3. Your hold doctrine of soul sleep is built on this: Because the Bible doesn't say the soul is not sleeping, therefore it must be sleeping.

4. Rather than going with the clear teaching of Scripture, that at death the spirit is separated from the body and goes either to heaven or hell.

 

[Eliyahu]

I am not confused at all. There is a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the unjust. IF the soul is connected with the body it will be raised as the body will be raised, and thus will live. This makes perfect sense with verse 28: "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." However you haven't been able to acccept the fact that often soul and spirit are interchangeable in the writings of the NT. Our bodies shall live. Our souls shall live. And that is inspite of death.
What does the Bible say:

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That depends on how you define soul. Your answer is obvious according to the above definition. I don't need to elaborate on that. Just use common sense.
On the other hand, if you accept that soul and spirit are used interchangeably, and the soul is united with the spirit, then the spirit/soul is in heaven praising God.

Do you remember why the argument started?
You denied the Sleep of Soul, then you must have claimed that the Souls are alive and active, unless you are claiming it is extinct. So, you must continue to prove that the souls are active in the Heaven. I already showed that souls do not die along with the bodies. Moreover remember that the body of the resurrection will not be the same as the one before the death. Souls and Spirits are not interchangeable, but they can be united and attached each other. Souls tended to yield to the flesh, the body before the Salvation, after salvation souls are to yield to the Spirit filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore you have to prove that the souls are doing something else than sleeping in the Paradise.

Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
--The only ones those phrases can be applicable to are the NT saints. They sang a new song. They were redeemed by the blood of the lamb. That is us. It can be no other. Those redeemed are out of every nation, people, and language. He has made us kings and priests. That also speaks of us. That description can only describe a NT saint--the apostles, and those that followed.

In Re 5 and in other chapters of Re, do you find any other believers than 24 elders except the martyrs ? For example, millions of Believers coming out of the Tribulation were not the actual people after the Tribulation which has not happened yet. In that case they couldn't speak to John because they didn't live at that time of John. If they had spoken with John, it means that they spoke with the John before they are born on this earth. Those Believers at the time of Early Church are not seen in the Revelation, except the Martyrs under the Altar in Re 6:9-11. What we can say, is that the 24 elders ( Re 4:4, 4:10, 5:8, 11:16, 19:4) might be representing the whole church of OT and NT because even the OT believers were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. But also they were praising the Lord as even the future Saints were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. So, the contents of the Elders praise doesn't say that all the Saints are praising for 2000 years in the Heaven. Otherwise, God may not need the Judgment, nor the New Millennium, and so on. Otherwise, why couldn't the Martyrs in Re 6:9-11 join the Praise Choir there, but they are commanded to take rest until the full number of martyrs are filled?
Apostle John is not included in the 24 elders, and we do not know who they are. In Re 22:8-9 shows that an angel was speaking to John. Angels are not redeemed, but it is not impossible that they were speaking on behalf of the Saints all. In Re 20:4, they are not shown, and they don't appear any more since then. Other than those 24, we don't find any human beings are praising God. Instead, any human beings are commanded to take rest ( Re 6:11, 14:13). Those 144,000 on the Mount Zion ( Re 14) were not the actual figures because they were not determined at the time of John, also, Anti-Christ or Harlot couldn't speak to John either as they didn't exist on this earth at that time. Unbelievers were thrown into the Lake of Fire ( Re 20) but that have not happened yet.
So, actually none of the souls of the dead people were praising except 24 elders, but the angels and 4 beasts were singing. We don't know who are the 24 elders. Apart from them we don't see anyone is praising God after death. If some souls were prasing God for 2000 years, they must have become either Angels or gods. If they praise God, why not praying unto God? What about studying the Bible then? Is that the Rest as in Re 14:13?
If I praise God for 10 hours, normally I fell asleep. Are they praising God for 2000 years without sleeping?

This is a more difficult passage. I believe it takes place during the tribulation and refers to some of the martyred Jews. The phrase "their brethren" seems to indicate this. The word rest is simply used in the sense of waiting or having patience. It certainly isn't referring to any kind of sleep.

Sleeping is a kind of Rest. Complete rest comes with Sleeping. If they are praising God, then they must be praying to God as well. Will they not take a sleep? In your mind the Believers have become powerful, supernatural beings after their death, right?

They don't sleep.

How do you know it?

I said that soul and spirit are used interchangeably. I gave you a general definition of how the word "soul" was often used in the Bible when differentiated from "spirit." You are resorting to cult tactics of hermeneutics again--plugging in one definition of one word everytime that word is used in Scripture.

Dear Brother, don't think that way. Otherwise, you may eat and drink the leaven and wine of RCC. If the souls are praising God, why not praying to God as well ?
Even if you may want to use Soul and Spirit interchangeably, it doesn't deny the Sleep of Soul. If the Soul meant the Spirit, the spirits are still singing and praising without rest? You can find such statement nowhere?
Why does the Spirit say that they may rest from their labours ( Re 14:13)?

It doesn't work. Context often defines what the definition of the word is. If you ignore context you ignore the definition.
They are praising the Lord:
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The singing was done by 24 elders and the angels, four beasts, no other human beings and their souls. Why does the Bible describe the Death as sleeping? and one of the 24 elders explained John about the Revelation, and Re 20:8-9 says this.

Re 22:
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Re 22: 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

We don't know exactly about them and none in the revelation prove that the souls are praising or praying for 2000 years, instead we see they are commanded to rest. ( Re 6:9-, 14:13)


Why does the Bible say this?

1 Thess 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Are they praising and singing while they are sleeping in Jesus ?

 

[DHK]

Do you remember why the argument started?
You denied the Sleep of Soul, then you must have claimed that the Souls are alive and active, unless you are claiming it is extinct.

For argument's sake I will take the position that the soul is intertwined with the spirit and is inseparable. This seems to be the teaching of Scripture as one (if not the only) thing that can separate the soul from the Spirit is the Word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Except it were for the Word of God and the conviction of the Spirit of God, the soul and spirit are inseparable.

So, you must continue to prove that the souls are active in the Heaven. I already showed that souls do not die along with the bodies. Moreover remember that the body of the resurrection will not be the same as the one before the death. Souls and Spirits are not interchangeable, but they can be united and attached each other

So far so good. They can be united together as Heb.4:12 indicates.

. Souls tended to yield to the flesh, the body before the Salvation, after salvation souls are to yield to the Spirit filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore you have to prove that the souls are doing something else than sleeping in the Paradise.

I do not find that dichotomy. We are to yield our whole bodies to the Lord (Romans 12:1); not just the spirit or the soul. It is the spirit that even a believer can yield to the purposes of Satan.
Paradise no longer exists but heaven does. If soul and spirit are united then the whole question of soul sleep is moot and the discussion is over. The spirit of man goes to heaven or hell. It is immortal. If both are united you don't have to worry any longer about the soul. But you must have great concern about the soul, whether it be your own or the unsaved of those all around you who will someday stand before God.
Why are you fixated on sleep? Is that what you plan to do when you get to heaven? Do you think that heaven is such a boring place? Have you nothing to look forward to? Does heaven hold no anticipation, no real future, no true hope in your life? Is that all you have to look forward to--an eternity of boredom and sleeping? I pity you.

In Re 5 and in other chapters of Re, do you find any other believers than 24 elders except the martyrs ? For example, millions of Believers coming out of the Tribulation were not the actual people after the Tribulation which has not happened yet. In that case they couldn't speak to John because they didn't live at that time of John. If they had spoken with John, it means that they spoke with the John before they are born on this earth.

We should exclude the examples from the tribulation period, but for other reasons.

Those Believers at the time of Early Church are not seen in the Revelation, except the Martyrs under the Altar in Re 6:9-11. What we can say, is that the 24 elders ( Re 4:4, 4:10, 5:8, 11:16, 19:4) might be representing the whole church of OT and NT because even the OT believers were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. But also they were praising the Lord as even the future Saints were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. So, the contents of the Elders praise doesn't say that all the Saints are praising for 2000 years in the Heaven. Otherwise, God may not need the Judgment, nor the New Millennium, and so on. Otherwise, why couldn't the Martyrs in Re 6:9-11 join the Praise Choir there, but they are commanded to take rest until the full number of martyrs are filled?

Any example after Revelation six and up to ch.19 will be considered to be within the period of the Tribulation.
However the examples given in chapters four and five are indicative of NT saints by the very description given to them. Particularly that pasage in chapter five. There are descriptive phrases used there that can only apply to NT believers and no one else.
You have a problem with time. Once John entered into heaven time ceased to be. He could look on earth and see time. But the earth doesn't revolve around the sun in heaven. There is no time in heaven. John was standing outside any realm of time. That is a difficult concept for us to grasp. How much of eternity he saw we don't know, that is, events past and future.

Apostle John is not included in the 24 elders, and we do not know who they are. In Re 22:9-10 shows that an angel was speaking to John. Angels are not redeemed, but it is not impossible that they were speaking on behalf of the Saints all.

The 24 elders are probably representatives of 12 prophets and 12 apostles even if John was the one beholding the scene. These were saints as they were called--the redeemed.

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

In Re 20:4, they are not shown, and they don't appear any more since then. Other than those 24, we don't find any human beings are praising God. Instead, any human beings are commanded to take rest ( Re 6:11, 14:13).

Your definition of rest is out of context.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
--According to your theology, God got tired and took a nap or fell asleep.
This must be true because you keep plugging the same definition of the same word in every place regardless of the context. Remember, to you context doesn't matter. The definition is always the same. So God must be resting and sleeping. Your hermeneutic doesn't change. Your God is sleeping. Am I correct?

 

[Eliyahu]

Let's use some logic here.
1. It has well been established through Scripture that animals have souls, but not a spirit as man does.

As if you have the authority to negate Ecclesiastes 3:21.

2. However, we also know that there is no afterlife for an animal (no soul sleep either).

No problem here.

3. What then happens to the soul of an animal?

They are extinct.

The obvious conclusion is that it dies, decays, perishes, along with the body of the animal.

You equate the soul with the Brain of the Body, which I don't. The soul of the animal just is extinct after death.

The soul is the life (the brain), that part of the animal which God created and man cannot create. The law of biogenesis states that life only comes from life. Man cannot duplicate life. He can make a robot but he cannot create life. That life is in the mind of man. (So then with the mind I serve the law of God).

Soul, heart, mind, life are different words. I don't equate them at all, Minds, heart, may be part of the soul or mostly duplicate the Soul. The Bible sometimes separate them and sometimes Life is translated from Soul. Even the Brain-dead person has the soul yet. As long as one has the life, we can believe that the person has the soul.

The soul and mind are the same thing.

Bible doesn't equate them.

In the animal both are destroyed. I see no reason to believe the same thing as it applies to man, except in man there is a resurrection.

In case of animal, they may be destroyed at the time of death. But the soul of the human beings are preserved as we read Re 20:4. John was not noticing the brain of the body, but the souls of the beheaded. Abraham brought the souls from Haran( Gen 12:5), It doesn't mean that he brought the brains of the body which look like noodles :laugh: .

Re 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

John saw them, it doesn't mean that he saw the brain cells of the dead body. Souls are not extinct.

The important thing is that in man there is an immortal spirit that lives on after death which negates any possible theory of soul sleep.

Immortality of Spirit or Soul cannot negate the Soul Sleep. Souls live forever but sleep after death. Spirit lives forever which may be combined with soul after death. Living Spirit doesn't mean that it cannot sleep. Spirits can be asleep but I don't think Bible use such term, instead a person fell asleep when he or she died.

This can be found in NT : In case of Jesus, ex-pneuma
In case of Anania Sappira ( Ac 5:5, 10) King Herod, ex-pushke. One may argue that that's the difference between believer and unbeliever, but I believe Bible reported 2 sides of one sheet as the Soul and Spirit are attached and linked at the time of death.

Immediately after death the spirit goes to be with the Lord (or to hell), whichever may be the case. One goes to see their maker. There is no so called sleep. The Bible doesn't teach it. The spirit of man is immortal, whether speaking of the saved or unsaved. Death is separation--always.

It is not the Hell, but the Hades ( Sheol in OT), the waiting place. Believers souls go to the Paradise to be with the Lord which can be called Bosom of Abraham ( LK 16). The Paradise is also called Sheol as well, as we read about Jacob and others in OT. A good part of the Sheol is for the Believers and called Paradise. There the believers sleep and are still alive. Souls are different from brain. The brain cells are decayed in the Body.

Bible often said that the dead person fell asleep.

Does Bible say someone sleep while he or she is praising God?

 

[DHK]

It is not the Hell, but the Hades ( Sheol in OT), the waiting place. Believers souls go to the Paradise to be with the Lord which can be called Bosom of Abraham ( LK 16). The Paradise is also called Sheol as well, as we read about Jacob and others in OT. A good part of the Sheol is for the Believers and called Paradise. There the believers sleep and are still alive. Souls are different from brain. The brain cells are decayed in the Body.

Bible often said that the dead person fell asleep.

Does Bible say someone sleep while he or she is praising God?

I explained this on the thread "Did Christ go to Hell." There no longer is any such place as Sheol. That picture given in Luke 16--place of departed spirits with one compartment being paradise (Abraham's bosom), and the other part being hell where the rich man was, existed in the OT times, but was done away with at the cross.
Christ "led captivity captive." In other words he took those from paradise and led them up to heaven. Thus paradise is no longer. There remains only Hell where the rich man suffers in torment to this day. He is there. He is suffering. He is in torment. His spirit will always be so. It will even be worse once he receives a resurrection body that will be able to endure everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire.
Thus the word sleep only refers to the body. The soul never enters into the equation, neither does the word sleep.

If a dead person falls asleep it is the body, and the body only that is referred to--not the soul. The rich man was not sleeping in hell. And Lazarus may have been resting in Abraham's bosom, but he certainly wasn't asleep.

God rested on the seventh day.
You are convnced by your own hermeneutic that your God sleeps.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. We are the ones who need to meditate on those heavenly scenes, not those in heaven.

If anyone meditate 10 hours, then normally she or he fell asleep. Meditation for 2000 years? It must be like a long sleep.

2. And when we do, "soul sleep" will go away.

3. Your hold doctrine of soul sleep is built on this: Because the Bible doesn't say the soul is not sleeping, therefore it must be sleeping.

NO, Sir. I say it because Bible says it.
Bible says numerously the dead are sleeping in Jesus ( 1 Thes 4:14), fell asleep ( ac 7:60), etc. If the bodies are decayed, what part of human being is left? You can say, the spirit and soul both combined. That's the only part left out of body, and Bible says someone is sleeping as in the case of Lazarus. Jesus wouldn't have said, Lazarus is sleeping while he ( his soil and spirit) was actually meditating. Jesus would have said Lazarus is meditating ! Then the disciples would have responded " Meditiation is good for spiritual life!"
But Jesus said he fell asleep. Because actuall his soul and spirit fell asleep.

4. Rather than going with the clear teaching of Scripture, that at death the spirit is separated from the body and goes either to heaven or hell.

You have greatly misunderstood my arguments repeatedly.

I NEVER denied the souls and spirit goes to the Lord immediately after the death, to the Paradise as the Robber.
However, the Robber is sleeping now there! Therefore his soul is sleeping.
The body of the Robber has already decayed.

I already mentioned Soul represents a Person in most cases.


Dear DHK, TCGreek,
I will respond to the others late afernoon, tomorrow. By now I will let my body sleep, not the soul sleep ( i don't want to die yet). Take care.

Don't misunderstand that I deny the dead souls go to the Paradise to be with the Lord. That's correct. But they sleep there!

 

[DHK]

You have greatly misunderstood my arguments repeatedly.

I NEVER denied the souls and spirit goes to the Lord immediately after the death, to the Paradise as the Robber.
However, the Robber is sleeping now there! Therefore his soul is sleeping.

Then your argument is from complete silence, as is most RCC man-made doctrines. Where is there even one instance of a person sleeping in heaven?

 

[TCGreek]

If anyone meditate 10 hours, then normally she or he fell asleep. Meditation for 2000 years? It must be like a long sleep.

1. First off, sorry for some of my typos.

2. The meditations I'm talking about has nothing to do with someone doing it in death. All I'm saying is the we, as interpreters of Scripture, need to meditate on Scripture to find it's true meaning. I hope that is clear.

NO, Sir. I say it because Bible says it.
Bible says numerously the dead are sleeping in Jesus ( 1 Thes 4:14), fell asleep ( ac 7:60), etc. If the bodies are decayed, what part of human being is left? You can say, the spirit and soul both combined. That's the only part left out of body, and Bible says someone is sleeping as in the case of Lazarus. Jesus wouldn't have said, Lazarus is sleeping while he ( his soil and spirit) was actually meditating. Jesus would have said Lazarus is meditating ! Then the disciples would have responded " Meditiation is good for spiritual life!"
But Jesus said he fell asleep. Because actuall his soul and spirit fell asleep.

3. We addressed this before, but you're not willing to accept the euphemism that "falling asleep" refers to "death" (Lk 8:52-55; John 11:12-14).

4. The Bible doesn't say that the soul is sleeping at death. Your whole theology is based on silence. The soul is bound to the spirit of man (see DHK above on Heb 4:12).

You have greatly misunderstood my arguments repeatedly.

5. I'm sorry if I have, but don't mistake an opposing view for misunderstanding.

I NEVER denied the souls and spirit goes to the Lord immediately after the death, to the Paradise as the Robber.
However, the Robber is sleeping now there! Therefore his soul is sleeping.
The body of the Robber has already decayed.

6. Where is Paradise? What about his spirit? What is it doing? Soul sleeps, body decays, What about the spirit?

Dear DHK, TCGreek,
I will respond to the others late afernoon, tomorrow. By now I will let my body sleep, not the soul sleep ( i don't want to die yet). Take care.

Don't misunderstand that I deny the dead souls go to the Paradise to be with the Lord. That's correct. But they sleep there!

7. Where is Paradise?

 

[Eliyahu]

Paradise no longer exists but heaven does.

Wrong !
2 Cor 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
Re 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
You negated Ecclesiastes 3:21, now another Bibles.

If soul and spirit are united then the whole question of soul sleep is moot and the discussion is over.

Why and how?

The spirit of man goes to heaven or hell. It is immortal. If both are united you don't have to worry any longer about the soul. But you must have great concern about the soul, whether it be your own or the unsaved of those all around you who will someday stand before God.

Here I start to find a big problem in your theology. The argument arose because you believe that the Believers go to the Heaven directly, and the Unbelievers go to the Hell directly. In that case there will be no need for the judgment on the Day of Great Judgment. Even the Resurrection will not be needed, because they are already in the Heaven or in the Hell. You are wrong in this theology. I already showed you the paradises and there will be Resurrection of the Believers and Unbelievers. They will sleep until the Resurrection.

Why are you fixated on sleep? Is that what you plan to do when you get to heaven?

No, not in Heaven, but in the paradise we sleep waiting for the Resurrection. Bible says so.

Do you think that heaven is such a boring place? Have you nothing to look forward to? Does heaven hold no anticipation, no real future, no true hope in your life? Is that all you have to look forward to--an eternity of boredom and sleeping? I pity you.

You are greatly mistaken here because you are confused between Paradise and Heaven

We should exclude the examples from the tribulation period, but for other reasons.
Any example after Revelation six and up to ch.19 will be considered to be within the period of the Tribulation.
However the examples given in chapters four and five are indicative of NT saints by the very description given to them. Particularly that pasage in chapter five. There are descriptive phrases used there that can only apply to NT believers and no one else.
You have a problem with time. Once John entered into heaven time ceased to be. He could look on earth and see time. But the earth doesn't revolve around the sun in heaven. There is no time in heaven. John was standing outside any realm of time. That is a difficult concept for us to grasp. How much of eternity he saw we don't know, that is, events past and future.
The 24 elders are probably representatives of 12 prophets and 12 apostles even if John was the one beholding the scene. These were saints as they were called--the redeemed.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

You formulate the Bible according to your theology. You try to ignore Re 6:9-11, 14:13, and exaggerate 24 elders. Who else do you find are praising God?

Your definition of rest is out of context.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
--According to your theology, God got tired and took a nap or fell asleep.
This must be true because you keep plugging the same definition of the same word in every place regardless of the context. Remember, to you context doesn't matter. The definition is always the same. So God must be resting and sleeping. Your hermeneutic doesn't change. Your God is sleeping. Am I correct?

When there is no statement of Sleep, it means God rested simply. If there is another statement that God slept, then even the rest meant the Sleep. In truth God didn’t sleep, Sir.

Now we look at the Bible.
TCGreek admitted that the Soul represented the persons from his survey of souls appeared in the Bible. After the death, the Body is gone for decay, and only Soul/Spirit are left for each person.

The Bible says this:
Lazarus fell asleep ( Jn11)
Stephen fell asleep ( Ac 7:60)
Sinned Believers sleep ( 1 Cor 11:30) after death
We shall not all sleep ( 1 Cor 15:51) ( We shall sleep, otherwise, if we sing and praise God, then he wouldn’t have said so)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope ( 1 Th 4:13) ( Because Paul knew that they were sleeping !)
God will bring them who are sleeping in Jesus ( 1 Th 4:14)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep ( 1 Th 4:15)
Who died for us, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. ( 1 Th 5:10) – we see sleep is used in contrast to Wake. ( Were they praising?)

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished ( 1 Cor 15:18)

Jesus noticed the dormant state of the dead girl and therefore said this:

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn ( Mt 9:24)

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. ( Luke 8:52)

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. ( Eph 5:14)

If their souls/Spirits were praising and singing as per DHK, could Jesus say they were sleeping?

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear DHK, TCGreek,

I summarize the followings:

1. My belief doesn't depend on Eccl 3:21. It's not needed at all for my belief. I just wanted to be accurate according to the Bible.

2. The main difference is about this simple thing.
The Souls are sleeping or They are active and doing something after the death.

3. The reason for the difference is because, I realize, you believe that the Souls go to the Heaven directly, which I don't believe.
You believe that the Unbelievers go to the Hell directly, which I don't believe either.

4. My belief is that the Souls will go to the Paradise, not the Heaven, which nevertheless belongs to Jesus, a waiting place before going to the Heaven.
Unbelievers will go to the Hadesn which is the waiting place before the Judgment, so as for them to go to the Hell.

5. In the Paradise, the Souls are sleeping. In the Heaven there will be many activities according to the plan of God.

6. Now the issue is whether we can prove that there is the Paradise or not. I already posted about the Bible, Luke 23:43, 2 Cor 12:4, Re 2:7
Also, all the verses indicating " fallen asleep in Jesus" means the state in the same spiritual place.

Don't ask me where is the Paradise, but you should know there is the Altar and Under the Altar there are the souls of the Martyrs.

7. One of the reasons for your confusion is from the English Bibles which uses the word Hell for both Hades and Gehenna, even KJV uses the same for different places ( This is why I am not 100% KJVO, but only 99%)

8. Let's see some of the usage for Hades:

Mt 11:23 And thou , Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it And thou Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.


Luke 16: 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1 Cor 15: 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Re 6:8

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Re 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G86&Version=kjv

(KJV : Hell, grave were translated from Hades). There are some more which is not Gehenna but translated as Hell, such as 1 Peter 3:19 (Pulakhe) 2 Pet 2:4 ( tartarowsas)

9. If the souls of the dead go to the Heaven directly, there will be no need of Resurrection and the Great Judgment. When the dead souls go to the Heaven they need another clothes, another body ( 1 Cor 15), and before that, they must be resurrected and get the judgment by Christ.



Your theology has a big hole, a huge mistake. Sorry and Pity to you guys.:wavey:

 

[TCGreek]

[FONT=Arial[[FONT=Arial]TCGreek admitted that the Soul represented the persons from his survey of souls appeared in the Bible. After the death, the Body is gone for decay, and only Soul/Spirit are left for each person.[/FONT]

The Bible says this:
Lazarus fell asleep ( Jn11)
Stephen fell asleep ( Ac 7:60)
Sinned Believers sleep ( 1 Cor 11:30) after death
We shall not all sleep ( 1 Cor 15:51) ( We shall sleep, otherwise, if we sing and praise God, then he wouldn’t have said so)

1. You continue to show a disregard for context. Read 1 Cor 15:51 in light of 1 Thess. 4:15---not everyone would experience death when our bodies are changed, some believers would still be alive. This is not about a heavenly scene.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope ( 1 Th 4:13) ( Because Paul knew that they were sleeping !)
God will bring them who are sleeping in Jesus ( 1 Th 4:14)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep ( 1 Th 4:15)

2. Some were concern about those who have died, What will happen to them? Then asked. Paul then explains.

3. V.15 shows that those who have fallen asleep are with the Lord. "Those who have fallen asleep" transtates an article aorist participle, with no respect for duration of time, simply reporting a complete fact---they have fallen asleep---they have died.

Who died for us, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. ( 1 Th 5:10) – we see sleep is used in contrast to Wake. ( Were they praising?)

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished ( 1 Cor 15:18)

Jesus noticed the dormant state of the dead girl and therefore said this:

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn ( Mt 9:24)

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. ( Luke 8:52)

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

If their souls/Spirits were praising and singing as per DHK, could Jesus say they were sleeping?

4. You are making the same old argument again and again.

 

[Eliyahu]

.
3. V.15 shows that those who have fallen asleep are with the Lord. "Those who have fallen asleep" transtates an article aorist participle, with no respect for duration of time, simply reporting a complete fact---they have fallen asleep---they have died.

Yes, correct, it is aorist passive Participle and any occurence before the statement. But other verses support that.
What about the Katheudown in Ephesian 5:14

Present Active Participle? Then will you accept it?