When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Eliyahu]

DHK, TCGreek,

The agreement on the differentiation between Hades and Gehenna ( Hell) is the pre-requisite for all the discussion on this Soul Sleep.

I don't believe the souls are sleeping in the Heaven, There will be many things according to the Plan of God.

However, the Souls/Spirit will not do anything in the Paradise, which is different from Heaven.

Therefore your definition about the life after death is important.

I don't believe the souls/spirits go to the Heaven directly.

I believe the souls are going to the paradise as per the Bible which I already mentioned above.

In the Heaven the souls are not dormant, but in the Paradise they are dormant.

If you believe that the souls go to the Heaven directly, there will be several problems.

1) How will be the Judgment? If they went to the Hell and/or Heaven already. Do they still need the Judgment?

2) Do you still expect the souls come out of the Heaven and participate in the Kingdom of New Millennium?

The souls were already with Jesus in the Heaven, then come out to live in the New Millennium, and come out for the Great Judgment?

Your theology sounds ridiculous !

 

[DHK]

Wrong !
2 Cor 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
Re 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
You negated Ecclesiastes 3:21, now another Bibles.

There is no paradise as described in the OT, and in Luke 16. Paradise was a part of Sheol, a place of the departed dead. In the Scripture you used above it is simply a synonym for heaven, and that is all. Jesus led the OT saints from paradise into heaven (Eph.4:6). That place of paradise no longer exists, but hell still does.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, correct, it is aorist passive Participle and any occurence before the statement. But other verses support that.
What about the Katheudown in Ephesian 5:14

Present Active Participle? Then will you accept it?

1. This is another example of progressive parallelism:

Arise, the one who sleeps,

Raise from the dead,

And Christ will give you life.

2. Sleep=dead.

3. The present tense is used as a gnomic present, capturing a timeless truth. But it doesn't say the soul is sleeping.

 

[TCGreek]

There is no paradise as described in the OT, and in Luke 16. Paradise was a part of Sheol, a place of the departed dead. In the Scripture you used above it is simply a synonym for heaven, and that is all. Jesus led the OT saints from paradise into heaven (Eph.4:6). That place of paradise no longer exists, but hell still does.

1. Eliyahu, I share the same view about Paradise as DHK, that is why I kept asking you about Paradise. I notice it was a problem in your theology.

2. This side of the Cross Paradise is Heaven. Scripture is clear about that as seen in the Scriptures above.

 

[TCGreek]

DHK, TCGreek,

The agreement on the differentiation between Hades and Gehenna ( Hell) is the pre-requisite for all the discussion on this Soul Sleep.

I don't believe the souls are sleeping in the Heaven, There will be many things according to the Plan of God.

However, the Souls/Spirit will not do anything in the Paradise, which is different from Heaven.

Therefore your definition about the life after death is important.

I don't believe the souls/spirits go to the Heaven directly.

I believe the souls are going to the paradise as per the Bible which I already mentioned above.

In the Heaven the souls are not dormant, but in the Paradise they are dormant.

If you believe that the souls go to the Heaven directly, there will be several problems.

1) How will be the Judgment? If they went to the Hell and/or Heaven already. Do they still need the Judgment?

2) Do you still expect the souls come out of the Heaven and participate in the Kingdom of New Millennium?

The souls were already with Jesus in the Heaven, then come out to live in the New Millennium, and come out for the Great Judgment?

Your theology sounds ridiculous !

1. Your view of Paradise is clearly before the Resurrection of Christ.

2. Your questions are based on logic and not Scriptural data.

 

[Eliyahu]

2. Sleep=dead.

This is your theology, not the Bible.

Awake thou that sleepest ( Eph 5:14) -

It is not only the problem with the tense.

If "thou" was not sleeping but praising God, then can anyone say " AWAKE" ?

Also, the verse is not Proverb either and therefore you cannot say Gnomic Present though you may appeal to the constant truth.

 

[David Michael Harris]

When we die, do we go directly to heaven or hell?????

I know in the bible it states that the dead will rise first or someting like that. Is there a waiting place until JESUS returns.. or is heaven and hell the waiting place and anyways.... Please explain.. lol.. :laugh:

For some, they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye Paul Says.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

( 1Co 15:51-57 ESV)

We shall not all sleep?

Peter also talks about receiveing a rich entry into the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

( 2Pe 1:10-11 ESV )

These verses answer the question for me.

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK, TCGreek,

1. In your theology the followings are the outline of the life after the death of the Believers. Please confirm.

Believers death- Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to the Heaven, to be with the Lord- Praise and do anythings there in Heaven- Resurrection of the Body- Enter the Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Heaven again.

Unbelievers death-Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hell -Soul/Spirit suffers there - Resurrection of the Body- Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Hell again.

2. My Belief is here:

Believers death - Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to Paradise, to be with the Lord- Sleep there in dormant state- Awake and Resurrected with the new Body ( some may not be resurrected for 1000 years according to Re 20:4-5) - Enter the New Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment ( maybe Believers Judgment at the Seat of Christ before that)- Enter the Heaven.

Unbelievers death - Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hades - Sleep or suffer pain is not certain - Awake and resurrected according to the Re 20:10-15- Great Judgment- Thrown into the Hell ( Lake of Fire)

Hades still exists until Re 20:14 which is different from Gehenna. Eventually Hades is thrown away there.


3. Now the problem with your theology is that
Believers go to the Heaven first, then return back to the Millennium ( for Cottage?) - get the Judgment- Return back to the Heaven.

I have never seen this kind of chaos Theology. Please confirm if this is your expectation.

In your theology, Unbelievers went to the Hell already before the Judgment. The Bible says, everyone will be judged and punished according to their behaviors and works. Does your theology punish the people without judgment? Then Judge them after the Punishment?

Yours sounds chaos.

 

[TCGreek]

This is your theology, not the Bible.

Awake thou that sleepest ( Eph 5:14) -

It is not only the problem with the tense.

If "thou" was not sleeping but praising God, then can anyone say " AWAKE" ?

Also, the verse is not Proverb either and therefore you cannot say Gnomic Present though you may appeal to the constant truth.

1. There's no problem with the tense. The Gk. present is way more versatile than we give it credit for: there's the iterative, gnomic, future, customary, historic, and so on, function of the Gk. present tense.

2. And even the verse you quote, says nothing about soul, that you must import to build your theology--it's nowhere taught in Scripture, both Old and New Testaments.

 

[TCGreek]

DHK, TCGreek,

1. In your theology the followings are the outline of the life after the death of the Believers. Please confirm.

Believers death- Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to the Heaven, to be with the Lord- Praise and do anythings there in Heaven- Resurrection of the Body- Enter the Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Heaven again.

Unbelievers death-Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hell -Soul/Spirit suffers there - Resurrection of the Body- Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Hell again.

2. My Belief is here:

Believers death - Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to Paradise, to be with the Lord- Sleep there in dormant state- Awake and Resurrected with the new Body ( some may not be resurrected for 1000 years according to Re 20:4-5) - Enter the New Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment ( maybe Believers Judgment at the Seat of Christ before that)- Enter the Heaven.

Unbelievers death - Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hades - Sleep or suffer pain is not certain - Awake and resurrected according to the Re 20:10-15- Great Judgment- Thrown into the Hell ( Lake of Fire)

Hades still exists until Re 20:14 which is different from Gehenna. Eventually Hades is thrown away there.


3. Now the problem with your theology is that
Believers go to the Heaven first, then return back to the Millennium ( for Cottage?) - get the Judgment- Return back to the Heaven.

I have never seen this kind of chaos Theology. Please confirm if this is your expectation.

In your theology, Unbelievers went to the Hell already before the Judgment. The Bible says, everyone will be judged and punished according to their behaviors and works. Does your theology punish the people without judgment? Then Judge them after the Punishment?

Yours sounds chaos.

And you have a problem with those sequence of events?

 

[Eliyahu]

And you have a problem with those sequence of events?

Of course don't you find the big problems with your theology?

I don't find any problem with my theology there !

Repeat !

Your theology tells the Believers go to the Heaven first before the Judgment, and come back to the earth, and live 1000 years, then get the judgment, then return to the Heaven. Can you find the first place of the heaven when you return back?

Why don't they stay in the Heaven and just take the clothe of the new body later?

If they went to the Heaven and Hell, what for do they need to get the Judgment as they already got the judgment?

Repeat your theology and tell the people about the sequence of your imagination.

At least you must admit that the Hades will remain in existence until Re 20:14. What will be the counterpart of Hades in the meantime?
Is it the Heaven?

Is 2 Cor 12:4 an imagination for the Paradise?

It sounds ridiculous to me.

 

[Brother Bob]

You are judged every day of your life and ever how death finds you so will the resurrection receive you.
Being judged and the Judgement are two different things. You think the Lord don't already have the record when He comes, to give to every man according as his works has been. The names will already be enrolled in the Lamb's book of Life, when He comes.

The Judgement is what you will receive, whether its good or bad.

 

[Eliyahu]

You are judged every day of your life and ever how death finds you so will the resurrection receive you.
Being judged and the Judgement are two different things. You think the Lord don't already have the record when He comes, to give to every man according as his works has been. The names will already be enrolled in the Lamb's book of Life, when He comes.

The Judgement is what you will receive, whether its good or bad.

So, you deny that there will be the Day of Great Judgment, don't you?

Read it here:

RE 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell(Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell(Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

 

[BobRyan]

Your theology tells the Believers go to the Heaven first before the Judgment, and come back to the earth, and live 1000 years, then get the judgment, then return to the Heaven. Can you find the first place of the heaven when you return back?

Why don't they stay in the Heaven and just take the clothe of the new body later?

.

This is a good point.

in fact IF you bend 2Cor 5 around so that the "immortal body " of 2Cor 5 IS NOT the "immortal body" of 1Cor 15 given at the resurrection THEN you have TWO bodies - both immortal - BOTH eternal - so... "BODY SHARING"????

I am telling you that when you get this wrong there are all kinds of red flags left laying around to tell you that you made a wrong turn.:laugh:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You are judged every day of your life and ever how death finds you so will the resurrection receive you.
Being judged and the Judgement are two different things. You think the Lord don't already have the record when He comes, to give to every man according as his works has been. The names will already be enrolled in the Lamb's book of Life, when He comes.

The Judgement is what you will receive, whether its good or bad.

There is no doubt that God knows all -- But He sovereignly "chooses" the Dan 7 and Romans 2 "solution" of a pre-advent judgment in which time the dark powers of earth persecute the saints "UNTIL judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" in that heavenly courtroom of Dan 7 and 2Cor 5:10

 

[Brother Bob]

So, you deny that there will be the Day of Great Judgment, don't you?

Read it here:

RE 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell(Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell(Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

I deny no such thing. Do you see any saved in that judgement you speak of and what happens to all of them. They receive their "judgement" which is a just reward for the life they lived, whether good or bad.

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Don't you believe the words of Jesus??? or do you deny them.

Do you believe that they will be questioned in the day of judgement "why did you do this" or why did you do that", or will the decision already be made where they will be in eternity???????????

The words that I speak will judge you in the last day. (you will receive your judgement)!!!

Honestly, do you believe there will be a great trial where you will plead your case??????????

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Eliyahu
Wrong !
2 Cor 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
Re 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
You negated Ecclesiastes 3:21, now another Bibles.

Good points sir - made directly from scripture!

There is no paradise as described in the OT, and in Luke 16.

To "just stuff up" is not on par with actually having scripture to support your views as Eliyahu has done.

Let's start with the obvious and glaring problem with that statement of yours.

#1. "Paradise" is NOT mentioned AT ALL Luke 16!!
#2. There are only THREE texts in all of the NT addressing the subject of Paradise and Eliyahu has given us two -- you have given zero.

DHK
Paradise was a part of Sheol, a place of the departed dead.

Scripture please.

[/quote]DHK
In the Scripture you used above it is simply a synonym for heaven[/quote]

Almost correct - Paradise is heaven - it is also WHERE the Throne of God and Tree of life is according to the book of Revelation

Jesus led the OT saints from paradise into heaven (Eph.4:6).

It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to "discover" that -

The number of times that Eph 4:6 references the term "Paradise" is ZERO,

The number of times that Eph CHAPTER 4 references the term "Paradise" is ZERO,

The number of times that the BOOK of Ephesians references the term "Paradise" is ZERO,

So again you use "ZERO" scripture reference to Paradise to support your view of paradise.

DHK
That place of paradise no longer exists, but hell still does.

Scripture please.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

BR;
There is no doubt that God knows all -- But He sovereignly "chooses" the Dan 7 and Romans 2 "solution" of a pre-advent judgment in which time the dark powers of earth persecute the saints "UNTIL judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" in that heavenly courtroom of Dan 7 and 2Cor 5:10

agree, judgement is passed and God knows who gets what.

We are either saved now, or we are lost now. It is not going to change in the "judgement", judgement will just be passed upon all mankind.

 

[BobRyan]

Awake thou that sleepest ( Eph 5:14) -

It is not only the problem with the tense.

If "thou" was not sleeping but praising God, then can anyone say " AWAKE" ?

Good point. In scripture it is the PERSON that sleeps in death. "I go that I may WAKE HIM" John 11.

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>


John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep,[/b] he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”

1Cor 15:
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.


1 Cor 11
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.[/b]



Man is Mortal

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.


1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

 

[BobRyan]

agree, judgement is passed and God knows who gets what.

We are either saved now, or we are lost now. It is not going to change in the "judgement"

That is also true.

The future pre-advent judgment does not change your status in Christ. If you are saved going into the judgment you are saved coming out. If you are lost going into the judgment of Dan 7 and Romans 2 you are lost coming out. Salvation occurs NOW in this life -- when you come to Christ you are saved (but of course I don't mean to imply OSAS)

But when Dan 7 says that the wicked oppress the righteous on earth "UNTIL judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" it is speaking of reality. Dan 7 shows us that this is future to the time of the Roman empire and it is PRIOR to the 2nd coming according to Dan 7.

They are judged "when the books are opened" according to Dan 7 and 2Cor5 makes it clear that ALL are judge according to "the deeds done in the body whether good OR evil" and Romans 2 shows us exactly how that plays out.

in Christ,

Bob