When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Eliyahu]

I deny no such thing. Do you see any saved in that judgement you speak of and what happens to all of them. They receive their "judgement" which is a just reward for the life they lived, whether good or bad.


Don't you believe the words of Jesus??? or do you deny them.

Do you believe that they will be questioned in the day of judgement "why did you do this" or why did you do that", or will the decision already be made where they will be in eternity???????????

The words that I speak will judge you in the last day. (you will receive your judgement)!!!

Honestly, do you believe there will be a great trial where you will plead your case??????????

So, you deny this?

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Brother Bob]

They are judged "when the books are opened" according to Dan 7 and 2Cor5 makes it clear that ALL are judge according to "the deeds done in the body whether good OR evil" and Romans 2 shows us exactly how that plays out.

in Christ,

Bob

I know it says they will be judged out of the things written in the books, but it is foreknown who failed to obey the things written in the book. The group gathered there are all lost already when they stand there. It is just God's way of putting the final seal on it. It will not be like a trial that man has now, but will be a reward of punishment and the books will witness against them.

But we are agreeing I think, I don't think you believe it will be a chance for them to escape the Lake of fire by pleading their case.

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I deny nothing of the sort. I want to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, for that is when I will be delivered incorruptle, in Glory, Spiritual, Power.
Also, this will take place as we are changed in the grave and come forth.
You are not going to get up with a Spiritual Body and then stand before Christ to be judged.
You either got it or you don't.

Rom 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Cr 15:44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Come on Eliyahu; if we are going to get up already Spiritual, surely you believe we have already received part of our reward????? We will be on our way to Heaven. Who do you think is bringing us out of the grave with a glorified body??? CHRIST!!

 

[Eliyahu]

This is a good point.

in fact IF you bend 2Cor 5 around so that the "immortal body " of 2Cor 5 IS NOT the "immortal body" of 1Cor 15 given at the resurrection THEN you have TWO bodies - both immortal - BOTH eternal - so... "BODY SHARING"????

I am telling you that when you get this wrong there are all kinds of red flags left laying around to tell you that you made a wrong turn.:laugh:

in Christ,

Bob

That theory sounds like that Jesus of Gospel Matthew is different from Jesus of Gospel John. I can make a U-turn on a one way route only when Lord signals me..:wavey:

 

[Eliyahu]

I deny nothing of the sort. I want to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, for that is when I will be delivered incorruptle, in Glory, Spiritual, Power.
Also, this will take place as we are changed in the grave and come forth.
You are not going to get up with a Spiritual Body and then stand before Christ to be judged.
You either got it or you don't.

Rom 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Cr 15:44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Come on Eliyahu; if we are going to get up already Spiritual, surely you believe we have already received part of our reward????? We will be on our way to Heaven. Who do you think is bringing us out of the grave with a glorified body??? CHRIST!!

Dear Brother Bob,

1. So, you believe that each of us will stand in front of Jesus whenever each of us die, don't you?

Then you mean we will not stand all together, right? Only the individual standing will take place, right?

2. What about the Judges and the Martyrs in Re 20:4-5?
Will they come out of the Heaven to live on this earth for 1000 years?

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear Brother Bob,

Where do you expect you yourself will be when Jesus Christ comes with His followers to this earth to rule there for 1000 years?
Will you be left in Heaven with some others, while Jesus Christ comes with His believers and rule this Earth along with the Judges and Martyrs for 1000 years?

Are all the Believers coming out of Heaven, emptying the Heaven again, and will return back to Heaven after 1000 years?

Read Re Re 19:11-21 and Re 20:4-15

 

[Brother Bob]

Dear Brother Bob,

1. So, you believe that each of us will stand in front of Jesus whenever each of us die, don't you?

Then you mean we will not stand all together, right? Only the individual standing will take place, right?

2. What about the Judges and the Martyrs in Re 20:4-5?
Will they come out of the Heaven to live on this earth for 1000 years?

Don't believe in a literal 1000 years.

I am trying to say without much success, that we are judged now, every day of our lives and as Jesus said, ever how death finds you, so will the resurrection receive you.

I am making a difference in "being judged" and "judgement". Those that stand before the Great White Throne and are judged out of the things written in the books. It has already been established that they are lost and doomed for the LoF. Now, when they are cast in that will be their "judgement".
When we come out of the grave with a glorified body, on our way to heaven, that will be our "judgement".

It will be a quick work the Lord is going to do when it comes and does not involve a 1000 years.

Dear Brother Bob,

Where do you expect you yourself will be when Jesus Christ comes with His followers to this earth to rule there for 1000 years?
Will you be left in Heaven with some others, while Jesus Christ comes with His believers and rule this Earth along with the Judges and Martyrs for 1000 years?

Are all the Believers coming out of Heaven, emptying the Heaven again, and will return back to Heaven after 1000 years?

Where you find this in the Scripture?? I know the Jews are still looking but I believe He already come first time.

(duck)

 

[BobRyan]

I know it says they will be judged out of the things written in the books, but it is foreknown who failed to obey the things written in the book. The group gathered there are all lost already when they stand there. It is just God's way of putting the final seal on it. It will not be like a trial that man has now, but will be a reward of punishment and the books will witness against them.

But we are agreeing I think, I don't think you believe it will be a chance for them to escape the Lake of fire by pleading their case.

Agreed this is a case of Christ "demonstrating His word" as in Matt 7 where He says "A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree bad fruit".

When He says "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven" He is saying that not everyone who claims Christ is really saved. He PROVES it out of the things written in the books - and Dan 7 says there are "myriads and myriads" attending watching observing.

Once the books are closed - the court room adjourned -- the saints are then liberated from the persecuting power on earth that has persecuted the saints for all of history according to Dan 7.

HINT - this process is only valuable in a "free will universe" where decisions and PROOFs are being explained or played out as we see in the case of Job.

But you are right - the courtroom event is not one where we get to convince them that they have come to the wrong conclusion as to whether we really accepted Christ and are "a good tree".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

But you are right - the courtroom event is not one where we get to convince them that they have come to the wrong conclusion as to whether we really accepted Christ and are "a good tree".

in Christ,

Bob

:laugh: :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

For the record.

1. The 1000 years are "real" -- nothing in scripture indicates that they are not real.

2. Those raised in the resurrection AFTER the 1000 years ARE subject to the "second death" and those raised in the resurrection BEFORE the 1000 years are NOT (Rev 20:4-5).

3. The separating time line BETWEEN the two resurrections is "1000 years" -- real years.

4. The judgment of Rev 20 AFTER the 1000 years basically "convicts ALL the ungodly of their ungodly deeds" as Jude claims will happen. AND then they are thrown alive into the lake of Fire.

If you expect to be among those raised for judgment at the end of the 1000 years, those over whom the second death DOES have power -- then you are in a somewhat fearful condition.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Don't believe in a literal 1000 years.

I am trying to say without much success, that we are judged now, every day of our lives and as Jesus said, ever how death finds you, so will the resurrection receive you.

I am making a difference in "being judged" and "judgement". Those that stand before the Great White Throne and are judged out of the things written in the books. It has already been established that they are lost and doomed for the LoF. Now, when they are cast in that will be their "judgement".
When we come out of the grave with a glorified body, on our way to heaven, that will be our "judgement".

I expect you will comment this as the JUdgment of the Unbelievers only.

But please note this first:

AC 17: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;( This is Christ), whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

So, do you admit that the Unelievers will not be judged until the Appointed Day?

It will be a quick work the Lord is going to do when it comes and does not involve a 1000 years.
Where you find this in the Scripture?? I know the Jews are still looking but I believe He already come first time.
(duck)

Please read Re 20:4- ( I recommended you to read Re 19:11-Re 20:15 as it doesn't take too long to read it. If you had never read and understdood that portion before, your interpretation is very much limited and tend to be flawed)

Re 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The Martyrs are the same Believers as the ones in Re 6:9-.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 2:13-16 speaks of a judgment day FUTURE to Paul in which mankind is judged. As Does 2Cor 5:10.

But in the case of Rom 2 Paul argues that the judgment will determine that the gentile who has not scripture at all and who is seen to have the work of the Holy Spirit having written the deeds of the law on the heart will be judged as a spiritual Jew - saved.

A good tree - SEEN to have produced good fruit as the myriads and myriads of Dan 7 look into the books of record.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

The belief that the Believers will not have the Judgment is based on what Jesus said about the Resurrection. But that statement was Resurrection of Life and Resurrection of Judgment, as the former go to the Heaven and the latter go to the Hell.

However, it doesn't mean that we will not be judged for what we did in our lives. So, we will stand before the Throne of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[BobRyan]

"We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" makes it clear (2Cor 5:10) that nobody is exempt.

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:21 makes it clear that this applies to the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Bob,

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, thatwe may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


We will have the Day of Judgment, right?

 

[Eliyahu]

I don't think the opposers to the Soul Sleep are all the same, but they exposed the following problems so far.

1) They equate the Paradise with Heaven

2) They equate the Hades with the Hell

3) They negate the Day of Judgment for the Believers.

4) They have a Break time for the Hell because the Unbelievers will take a Break to get the Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment, because the Unbelievers are suffering in the Hell now without any Judgment or decision first, then will come out to the Earth to get the Judgment and then come back to the Hell.

5) They virtually ignore the New Millennium.

6) They ignore 1 Th 5:23 and Heb 4:12 differentiating Soul and Spirit.

As a result, there must be many more mistakes in the belief.

 

[Brother Bob]

I expect you will comment this as the JUdgment of the Unbelievers only.

But please note this first:

AC 17: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;( This is Christ), whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

So, do you admit that the Unelievers will not be judged until the Appointed Day?

I believe that ever man is judged now whether he is saved or not. Do you agree?

I also believe there will be a judgement of both the believers and unbelievers where they will recieve their just reward. The books will be opened as a witness against them and I believe that is what being judged then means, even though it is already sealed where you will be in eternity.

Re 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the 9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The Martyrs are the same Believers as the ones in Re 6:9-.

(souls of them ) John saw a part of a whole. He saw the souls and I agree these are those in Rev 6:9 which received their robes when the blood was shed by the Lamb of God.

Please read Re 20:4- ( I recommended you to read Re 19:11-Re 20:15 as it doesn't take too long to read it. If you had never read and understdood that portion before, your interpretation is very much limited and tend to be flawed)

Maybe my interptation is flawed, but I do not think so and I am among some great company. For 1600 years your theology was considered heretic and the 1000 years was believed to be spiritual and some of us still believe that to be so. You theology was revived by John Darby and the first 2 hundred years, there were some who beleived in a literal kingdom, but they believed and taught in that 1000 years the desires of the flesh would be plentiful.

I for one believe the souls that were under the altar of God were those who arose from the grave after Jesus arose and went into that Holy City and many were seen of many. Believe me, I have studied Rev, and believe what I have posted.

God Bless,

BBob,

Brother Bob,

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, thatwe may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


We will have the Day of Judgment, right?

Yes we sure will Eliyahu. I believe that is what Jesus spoke of when the hour is coming when all in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them who have done evil, the resurrection of damnation. All men will stand in that day before Christ and receive their just reward.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think the opposers to the Soul Sleep are all the same, but they exposed the following problems so far.

1) They equate the Paradise with Heaven

I wish to make a correction there because the sad story of what they do with "Paradise" is atrocious.

1. They invent the idea that "Paradise is part of Hades" -- though no such text exists no not in all of scripture.

2. They then invent the idea that Christ scoot's Paradise all over the cosmos moving it from Hades to Heaven.

3. They INSERT the idea/term for Paradise in Eph 4 and Luke 16 when in fact it is not mentioned there AT ALL!

Now the amazing thing about this is that Paradise is only mentioned THREE TIMES in all of the NT so you would think that they could not get this wrong -- yet they DO!

I find that part facinating!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eliyahu

4) They have a Break time for the Hell because the Unbelievers will take a Break to get the Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment, because the Unbelievers are suffering in the Hell now without any Judgment or decision first, then will come out to the Earth to get the Judgment and then come back to the Hell.

5) They virtually ignore the New Millennium.

They hold differing views on whether the Millennium is really a 1000 years between the first and second resurrection as Rev 20 says it is.

And that is amazing because it TOO is only mentioned a limited number of times (in fact just in Rev 20) so you would think they could not "get that wrong".

Also the big issue is that they end up with "body SHARING" for they assign TWO IMMORTAL and ETERNAL bodies to the saints!

They give the saints an IMMORTAL-ETERNAL body in 2Cor 5 at death AND ANOTHER ONE in 1Cor 15 at the 2nd coming resurrection of the saints!!

And as you point out - they send the wicked to hell, then out of hell to judgment, then back to Lake of Fire.

All this confused doctrine should be a clue "something is wrong".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.



Question – WHO are the saints of Rev 20:1-5 who participate in the general resurrection of the saints?

1Thess 4: - the Dead in Christ rise FIRST
Rev 20:4-5 The “Holy And Blessed” raised in the “FIRST resurrection” over these 2nd death has NO power.
1Peter 1:6-13 – this resurrection is THE focus of the entire NT church

#1. The souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. those who of those who died for Word of God
#3. AND Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. Those who had not received the mark of the beast

#5. “Then I saw…they came to life” A future event regarding these souls. Future to John’s day SOULS came to life!
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls entered into the ark” same word as “soul’ used in Rev 20:4 – meaning “person”.

#6. “The Rest of the dead” – all those who do not come to life at this 2nd coming event. Did not “come to life” until the 1000 years are completed.
#7. “The REST of the DEAD” indicates that those how DID come to life were “AMONG the dead” prior to “coming to life”

(Note – if “come to life” means – “be saved” then the rest of the dead get saved after the 1000 years. Universal salvation is not the point as we see from the rest of the chapter)

#7. “This is the first resurrection”
(This is the first resurrection that John sees in the future. The church is focused entirely on that resurrection according to 1Thess 4: 13-18 and 1Peter 1: 21, Romans 8:17-23, Phil 3 end) …

#8. The resurrection of vs 4 where the souls of the righteous “came to Life” (as opposed to being alive while dead) – is the event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking.

(This focus of the NT church – the resurrection of the righteous, is also described by Paul in 1Thess 4. These in Rev 20 are the righteous and is also clear that the “second death” has no power over those raised in this resurrection before the 1000 years.)

But there is another resurrection (a second resurrection) for the text says The Rest of the dead did not “Come To LIFE” until the 1000 years were completed.

This is the ONE coming of Christ mentioned by John in John 14

John 14

1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.


This is THE focus of the NT saints!

1Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
…
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, [b]fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.[/b]

Brother Bob
(souls of them ) John saw a part of a whole. He saw the souls and I agree these are those in Rev 6:9 which received their robes when the blood was shed by the Lamb of God.

1. "They CAME to LIFE" -- so you admit the SOULS "CAME to life"??

2. "The REST of the DEAD did NOT come to life" so you admit that souls that DID come to life were AMONG the dead BEFORE they came to life?

3. You agree that the saint in Rev 6 -- BEFORE the beast of Rev 13 and 14 are ALSO the saints of Rev 20 -- the "souls" that come to life in the FIRST resurrection?

Then we agree on a great deal more than even I thought.

in Christ,

Bob