When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob
(souls of them ) John saw a part of a whole. He saw the souls and I agree these are those in Rev 6:9 which received their robes when the blood was shed by the Lamb of God.

1. "They CAME to LIFE" -- so you admit the SOULS "CAME to life"??

2. "The REST of the DEAD did NOT come to life" so you admit that souls that DID come to life were AMONG the dead BEFORE they came to life?

3. You agree that the saint in Rev 6 -- BEFORE the beast of Rev 13 and 14 are ALSO the saints of Rev 20 -- the "souls" that come to life in the FIRST resurrection?

Then we agree on a great deal more than even I thought.

in Christ,

Bob

I believe the souls were at rest and were disturbed and cried "how long until thou avenge our blood" and went back to rest after receiving the white robes.

3. You agree that the saint in Rev 6 -- BEFORE the beast of Rev 13 and 14 are ALSO the saints of Rev 20 -- the "souls" that come to life in the FIRST resurrection?

Yes but not sure we agree what is the first resurrection. I believe the "rest of the dead" is their bodies being raised after Christ arose.

 

[Eliyahu]

I believe that ever man is judged now whether he is saved or not. Do you agree?

We are judged daily for our works and activities by God. But it doesn't mean that there will not be the Day of Judgment at the Seat of Christ.
On that day Christ will bring all the records of His Judgment and will deal with the Believers, thereafter He and His Believers will go to the White Throne and judge the Unbelievers ( Re 20:11-15)

I also believe there will be a judgement of both the believers and unbelievers where they will recieve their just reward. The books will be opened as a witness against them and I believe that is what being judged then means, even though it is already sealed where you will be in eternity.

Yes, there will be the Day of Judgment. Will the Believers come out to get the Judgment after they entered Heaven first? After the Judgment will they return back to the Heaven?

Jesus said this:
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

If the dead believers go to the Heaven directly, then it means Jesus has finished the preparation for the place, then Has Jesus come already?

Isn't it that Jesus has not come yet, and He has not finished the preparation for the place yet ( I believe this preparation is linked with the full numbers of the Believers).

Doesn't Jesus say that He will receive us after He comes again?

Has Jesus come already? Has He received the dead to His permanent place ( Heaven) already though the dead believers are accepted to His temporary place ( Paradise) ?

(souls of them ) John saw a part of a whole. He saw the souls and I agree these are those in Rev 6:9 which received their robes when the blood was shed by the Lamb of God.

RE 20:4 is not only the beheaded, but also the Believers to whom the Judgment is assigned, plus the Believers who refused the Anti-Christ, Beast. Read Re 20:4

Are the Martyrs coming out to this earth from the Heaven? Is the Heaven boring and therefore come to the Earth for 1000 years, then come back to Heaven? Read Re 20:4-10

Maybe my interptation is flawed, but I do not think so and I am among some great company. For 1600 years your theology was considered heretic and the 1000 years was believed to be spiritual and some of us still believe that to be so. You theology was revived by John Darby and the first 2 hundred years, there were some who beleived in a literal kingdom, but they believed and taught in that 1000 years the desires of the flesh would be plentiful.

No, dear Brother, I haven't heard about the denial of Millennium or JUdgment Day, or direct trip to the Heaven before. I have never heard anyone among the Believers denying the Day of Judgment before. You can bring any historical records to support your claim.

I for one believe the souls that were under the altar of God were those who arose from the grave after Jesus arose and went into that Holy City and many were seen of many. Believe me, I have studied Rev, and believe what I have posted.
God Bless,
BBob,

There is no indication that the dead who arose from the grave after Jesus arose were the martyrs beheaded, nor were they crying for the avenging.

Yes we sure will Eliyahu. I believe that is what Jesus spoke of when the hour is coming when all in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them who have done evil, the resurrection of damnation. All men will stand in that day before Christ and receive their just reward.

Eventually you cannot deny the Day of Judgment either for the Believers or for the Unbelievers.

Problem with your theology is that it says, Believers and Unbelievers go to the Permanent Places first before the Judgment, then come back to the Earth for the Millennium ( or you deny it despite the Bible) or to the Day of Great Judgment, then go back to the Hell or Heaven. This has a huge Blackhole.

 

[Brother Bob]

If you are going to quote me and what I believe and have posted, please get it right.

Jesus said this:
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

If the dead believers go to the Heaven directly, then it means Jesus has finished the preparation for the place, then Has Jesus come already?

Isn't it that Jesus has not come yet, and He has not finished the preparation for the place yet ( I believe this preparation is linked with the full numbers of the Believers).

Doesn't Jesus say that He will receive us after He comes again?

Has Jesus come already? Has He received the dead to His permanent place ( Heaven) already though the dead believers are accepted to His temporary place ( Paradise) ?

This is the souls coming back for one thing, their bodies and then both soul and body will take a heavenly flight to everly be with the Lord. I don't believe the believers will be judging the unbelievers at all. They did not sin against the believers, but against God.

No, dear Brother, I haven't heard about the denial of Millennium or JUdgment Day, or direct trip to the Heaven before. I have never heard anyone among the Believers denying the Day of Judgment before. You can bring any historical records to support your claim.

You misquote me. The day of Judgement will come for sure for both believers and unbelievers. The part where we disagree is there is not going to be no great trial for when Jesus leaves Heaven coming after the church, He already has the Lamb's book of life.

Again, The Judgement which is yet to come is when we receive our reward, whether good or bad. As a matter of fact I have already said so in the following which I posted before. You are changing my words Sir.

posted before by BBob,: question by Eliyahu 1. We will have the Day of Judgment, right?
answer by BBob,

I also believe there will be a judgement of both the believers and unbelievers where they will recieve their just reward. The books will be opened as a witness against them and I believe that is what being judged then means, even though it is already sealed where you will be in eternity.

again previously posted by BBob,;

Yes we sure will Eliyahu. I believe that is what Jesus spoke of when the hour is coming when all in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them who have done evil, the resurrection of damnation. All men will stand in that day before Christ and receive their just reward.

You fail to see this is what Jesus called the Judgement

Problem with your theology is that it says, Believers and Unbelievers go to the Permanent Places first before the Judgment, then come back to the Earth for the Millennium ( or you deny it despite the Bible) or to the Day of Great Judgment, then go back to the Hell or Heaven. This has a huge Blackhole

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is the judgement and all men recieve their rewards. You just want to believe in a literal Kingdom, when Jesus said the "Kingdom" is within you.

I would rather have the words of Jesus than some theology made by men.

Eliyahu; No, dear Brother, I haven't heard about the denial of Millennium

BB; You need to study historical writings on the Milennium.

Again, you are the one saying I deny the judgement. I just explain what the judgement is and it is not going to be no great trial when it is already "sealed" where every man is going when Jesus leaves the throne to come back to redeem His church. All there will be is the saved going to Heaven and the unsaved having the books witness against them and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Then its all over and the earth will pass away with a great noise.

 

[Brother Bob]

II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.

C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted

"1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to

second coming of Christ.

1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical

superstition.

2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.

D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic

interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.

E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.

F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.

1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside

(Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism

incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a

primarily American theological phenomenon.

2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded

Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/millennium.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=l9...ts=1HHqo9xufh&sig=u_L1HElf_kNQJtqF9KT4tDNG28Q

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear Brother Bob,
Thank you very much for your reply, in which I notice you have done the best to answer the questions as best as you can.
However, I have noticed that the gaps and differences in understanding the Bible and the history between you and me are quite a lot, maybe too much to resolve them on the internet, I wonder.
However, I would answer some of the points to yours as follows:

If you are going to quote me and what I believe and have posted, please get it right.

This is the souls coming back for one thing, their bodies and then both soul and body will take a heavenly flight to everly be with the Lord. I don't believe the believers will be judging the unbelievers at all. They did not sin against the believers, but against God.

1Co 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Also, the Judgment is assigned to the special group of the Believers as in Re 20:4

What if the Souls get the bodies delivered to them instead of coming to this world?

You misquote me. The day of Judgement will come for sure for both believers and unbelievers. The part where we disagree is there is not going to be no great trial for when Jesus leaves Heaven coming after the church, He already has the Lamb's book of life.

No problem

Again, The Judgement which is yet to come is when we receive our reward, whether good or bad. As a matter of fact I have already said so in the following which I posted before. You are changing my words Sir.

posted before by BBob,: question by Eliyahu 1. We will have the Day of Judgment, right?
answer by BBob,

again previously posted by BBob,;


You fail to see this is what Jesus called the Judgement

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is the judgement and all men recieve their rewards. You just want to believe in a literal Kingdom, when Jesus said the "Kingdom" is within you.

I would rather have the words of Jesus than some theology made by men.

Have the people in the graves been resurrected already? Because you are saying they receive the Judgment and Kingdom is within us.

BB; You need to study historical writings on the Milennium.

Again, you are the one saying I deny the judgement. I just explain what the judgement is and it is not going to be no great trial when it is already "sealed" where every man is going when Jesus leaves the throne to come back to redeem His church. All there will be is the saved going to Heaven and the unsaved having the books witness against them and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Then its all over and the earth will pass away with a great noise.

You made all the series of events very much simplified, simpler than what God plans to make them.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said this regarding Rev 20
(souls of them ) John saw a part of a whole. He saw the souls and I agree these are those in Rev 6:9 which received their robes when the blood was shed by the Lamb of God.

1. "They CAME to LIFE" -- so you admit the SOULS "CAME to life"??

2. "The REST of the DEAD did NOT come to life" so you admit that souls that DID come to life were AMONG the dead BEFORE they came to life?

3. You agree that the saint in Rev 6 -- BEFORE the beast of Rev 13 and 14 are ALSO the saints of Rev 20 -- the "souls" that come to life in the FIRST resurrection?

Then we agree on a great deal more than even I thought.

Yes but not sure we agree what is the first resurrection. I believe the "rest of the dead" is their bodies being raised after Christ arose.

Hmm..

1. Do we agree that Rev 20 says "And the REST of the dead did not come to life until AFTEr the 1000 years was complete"??

2. Do we agree that Rev 19 describes the real second coming? The one Christ mentions in John 14 "I will come again"??

3. Do we agree that the events of Rev 20 are on the heels of the events of Rev 19 in fact part of that same event?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.

C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted

"1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to

second coming of Christ.

1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical

superstition.

2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.

D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic

interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.

E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.

F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.

1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside

(Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism

incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a

primarily American theological phenomenon.

2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded

Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/millennium.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=l9...ts=1HHqo9xufh&sig=u_L1HElf_kNQJtqF9KT4tDNG28Q

I am not sure who own the sites that you posted above.

But the don't seem to be aware of the church history correctly.

1. Origen was the heretic who manipulated the Bible, etc.
2.MOntanists were the True Believers of the NT Biblical churches.
3. Augustine was very much heretic, and he was not awaken from the wine and alcohol drunken with the prostitues when he wrote the city of God. e.g. he condemned the Donatists who were the True Believers practicing the Believers Baptism ignoring the Infant Baptism.
Augustine also claimed the Baptismal Regeneration which is a Heresy. Origen was called the Father of Catholic.
Therefore Augustine was not trustworthy in many teachings.

4. Council of Ephesus was very much corrupted and their conclusion was the Heresies of Theotokos etc. Therefore their rejection of millennium is not surprising. Cyrill was a tricky man and condemned Nestorius as a Heretic denying Theotokos(calling Mary the Mother of God). Mary was not the Mother of God the Father, nor Mother of God the Holy Spirit, nor Mother of God the Son at the time of Creation ( Moreover Heb 7:3-4 rejects Son of God has the Mother). I don't think the Reformers uniformly denied Millennium apparently.

5. There are several types of Dispensationalism. Extreme and Mild ones.
There are certain characteristics among the ages, and no one sacrifices animals to God these days since Jesus accomplished it.
So, we should admit the Characteristic differences among the ages. Their churches are faithful to the NT teachings. Darby's translation of Bible tells about it.

6. Bible clearly says about 1000 years in Re 20.

You better check the short history here:

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm

 

[BobRyan]

II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

I do not believe in an earthly millennium but I believe in a REAL literal 1000 year millennium between the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20 that is part of the 2nd coming event and the second resurrection where you have the great white throne judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/millennium.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=l9...ts=1HHqo9xufh&sig=u_L1HElf_kNQJtqF9KT4tDNG28Q

And why should we believe anything about the information you just posted. Check your sources. They are from totally modernistic, Bible-hating, Christ-denying people. Take this quote from your first link:

The divine revelation cannot be detached from the divine reality of the living Lord Jesus. The revelation of the gospel is the revelation of Himself. The "good news" is Jesus! The gospel revelation of God in Christ is not a differentiated philosophy with fragmented principles of belief and behavior. German martyr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, wrote,

"Christ is not a principle in accordance with which the whole world must be shaped. Christ is not the proclaimer of a system of what would be good today, here and at all times. Christ teaches no abstract ethics such as must at all costs be put into practice. Christ was not essentially a teacher and legislator, but a man, a real man like ourselves. It is not therefore His will that we should in our time be the adherents, exponents and advocates of a definite doctrine, but that we should be real men before God. ...What Christ does is precisely to give effect to reality. He is Himself the real man and consequently the foundation of all human reality."10​

This is blasphemous. Why are you using it as a source for your own viewpoints. In fact Bonheoffer himself is a modernist. What does this mean to you: "Christ is not the proclaimer of a system of what sould be good today, here and at all times." Do you really believe that? It is heresy? What are you even doing going to such websites. I stay away from such "porn" i.e. garbage.


​

 

[DHK]

DHK, TCGreek,

1. In your theology the followings are the outline of the life after the death of the Believers. Please confirm.

Believers death- Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to the Heaven, to be with the Lord- Praise and do anythings there in Heaven- Resurrection of the Body- Enter the Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Heaven again.

Believers die--Body decays--Soul/Spirit goes to Heaven to be with the Lord, and will be there until the Resurrection takes place. When the Resurrection takes place the spirit is united with the body. At that specific time, on earth seven years of the Great Tribulation begins. At the same time the JSOC begins in heaven when all believers, in their resurrected bodies will be judged according to their works, not their sin. All their sin is forgiven. It is under the blood. When the Tribulation is ended Christ will come back to the earth and defeat the enemies of Israel at the Battle of Armageddon. This is described in Revelaton 19, where it also indicates that he will come back and the saints of heaven will come back with him. At that time the beginning of the MK will begin as well. The MK will last for one thousand years, at the end of which will be the Great White Throne Judgement--the Judgement of all the Unsaved. At the same time the resurrection of the unsaved will take place so that they will stand before God in both body and spirit. This is their final sentence, where they will all be sentenced to the LOF for all eternity forever and ever (Rev.20:10,15).
This is all desribed (mostly in Revelation 6-19, but in other Scriptures also.

Unbelievers death-Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hell -Soul/Spirit suffers there - Resurrection of the Body- Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Hell again.

The unbelievers will die, and the bodies will decay. The soul/spirit will go to Hell for the time being, where they will suffer in torment (as described in the story of the rich man and Lazarus--Luke 16). The resurrection of the usaved will take place after the thousand year MK. Their judgement will be at the GWT, where they will all be cast into the LOF in one final sentence.

2. My Belief is here:

Believers death - Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to Paradise, to be with the Lord-

Scripture please? The Bible does not teach this anywhere. It is your philosophy and nothing more. One man defined philosophy as a vain man's imagination.

Sleep there in dormant state- Awake and Resurrected with the new Body ( some may not be resurrected for 1000 years according to Re 20:4-5) - Enter the New Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment ( maybe Believers Judgment at the Seat of Christ before that)- Enter the Heaven.

Sleep is no where defined as a dormant state. That is not a Biblical definition. You are imposing your made up definition into the Bible which is not Scriptural. In that way you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. In other words you write your own Bible acccording to your own definitions. This is called neo-orthodoxy.
Secondly, you have described a belief in Millennial Exclusion, a belief for which many on this board have been banned. It is heresy. To say that some beleivers will not be resurrected until after the MK is heresy. There is only one resurrection for believers and it happens before the Tribulation, not after. It does not happen at the same time as the unbelievers. All believers will take part in the Millennial Kingdom, no believer excluded as you have implied.
No believer will stand before God in judgement after the MK. That judgment will have already taken place. The only judgement that will take place at that time is the GWT judgment--for unbelievers only.

Unbelievers death - Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hades - Sleep or suffer pain is not certain - Awake and resurrected according to the Re 20:10-15- Great Judgment- Thrown into the Hell ( Lake of Fire)

When an unbeliever dies his spirit/soul goes into hell and suffers torment. The body decays but the spirit is in torment. This again is described in Luke 16. Christ would not preach or teach such truths from the basis of a lie. They will remain there until the GWT judgement which will take place after the MK. There is says that Death and HELL will be cast into the lake of fire. That means that Hell and all its occupants will be thrown into the LOF. Hell is real. It exists as a place of torment. Rev.20:10-15 makes that very clear.

Hades still exists until Re 20:14 which is different from Gehenna. Eventually Hades is thrown away there.

True enough, providing you define that place of Hades as a place of torment, as Jesus does.

3. Now the problem with your theology is that
Believers go to the Heaven first, then return back to the Millennium ( for Cottage?) - get the Judgment- Return back to the Heaven.

You are wrong. I never said that. I have already explained that above. Our spirit is eternal. It will go to heaven (if a believer) as soon as one dies. It will remain there, safe in the arms of Jesus, alive with Christ, until the resurrection takes place. After the resurrection takes place then the JSOC will take place, but that is still before the MK. Christ has the perogative of setting the time of the Judgement Seat of Christ. Who are we to judge Christ as to when he should set his timeline, his time and place of Judgement. Are you God, to tell him what he should do. Is he doing something wrong that you need to correct God? Are you not being somewhat arrogant at this point? I would rather take the Lord at his word, by faith, and just believe what he says as true.

I have never seen this kind of chaos Theology. Please confirm if this is your expectation.

You have heard it now, but with many corrections. Obviously you never heard it properly. It is in the Bible in an orderly manner. God is a God of order, not of chaos. His words have meaning. Search them out. the word used for sleep in the Bible--look it up in the Greek. From the same Greek word comes our word "cemetary." It is a synonym often used for the death of the body, but never for the spirit or the soul. We bury the body not the soul.

In your theology, Unbelievers went to the Hell already before the Judgment. The Bible says, everyone will be judged and punished according to their behaviors and works. Does your theology punish the people without judgment? Then Judge them after the Punishment?

Who are you to command God when he should set the time of his judgement? If it does not agree with your theology then take your argument up with God. He set this timeline not me. I simply believe what the Bible teaches. I am only the messenger of God. Your argument is with God not me.

 

[TCGreek]

At least you must admit that the Hades will remain in existence until Re 20:14. What will be the counterpart of Hades in the meantime?
Is it the Heaven?

1. I cannot disagree with Scripture. And now Christ has the keys of death and hades (Rev. 1:18).

Is 2 Cor 12:4 an imagination for the Paradise?

It sounds ridiculous to me.

2. According to Paul, Paradise is the same as Heaven (2 Cor 12:1-4).

 

[Eliyahu]

2. According to Paul, Paradise is the same as Heaven (2 Cor 12:1-4).

2 Cor 12
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter


From the above context, we can find no statement of equating the Paradise with the Heaven.

What we can confirm is that there exists the word " Paradise" and that Believe can go there after death or even while in the body( maybe in the state of being alive, in the vision).
Therefore the Denial of Paradise is groundless. The only thing you can say is still the equation, but it is not confirmed yet.

If you remember John 14:3, you have to claim that Jesus has come already if you claim the dead Believers went to their permanent Residence- Heaven.
Jn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

We must distinguish between temporary residence and the permanent residence.

Has Jesus come already?

 

[Brother Bob]

Elijahu
He gives no references whatsoever. Why should I accept his history instead of the one I gave which does give references. Maybe some were heretics, but I think Justin was called a heretic also and he agreed with your thousand year literal reign, but not sure what it included. I think some history says they would have sensual indulgences of all fleshly desires in that Millenium................

 

[Brother Bob]

This is blasphemous. Why are you using it as a source for your own viewpoints. In fact Bonheoffer himself is a modernist. What does this mean to you: "Christ is not the proclaimer of a system of what sould be good today, here and at all times." Do you really believe that? It is heresy? What are you even doing going to such websites. I stay away from such "porn" i.e. garbage.


​

__________________
DHK

The History I gave gives its own references, this link just used that history.
Because its History, does not mean I follow anything.

Tell you what:
You give some history on the Millenium being preached after 2BC until 18 century? I am always willing to learn.
What about the second link which says the Millenium will be filled with fleshly desires to try and attract the Jews no doubt.

 

[DHK]

The History I gave gives its own references, this link just used that history.
Because its History, does not mean I follow anything.

Tell you what:
You give some history on the Millenium being preached after 2BC until 18 century? I am always willing to learn.
What about the second link which says the Millenium will be filled with fleshly desires to try and attract the Jews no doubt.

I don't want to debate this subject too much. I don't have the time right now to research it. Here is what I do know from previous research.
1. Any research done by the unsaved, and especially by those who deny Christ have their own agenda and their results will be biased against Christ, and against true Biblical Christianity. It cannot be trusted.
2. J.N. Darby did not introduce pre-millenialism. It may have become popular at that time. To start with a premise "There was no pre-millennial position held before Darby," is to start with a logical fallacy which cannot be proved. You are starting with a universal negative, and it is impossible to prove it. It is illogical. Just because one cannot find the evidence doesn't mean it is not there. Perhaps if people got their noses out RCC revised source material they would find some better material with which to use. But that means work, something most people are afraid of.

 

[Brother Bob]

2. J.N. Darby did not introduce pre-millenialism. It may have become popular at that time. To start with a premise "There was no pre-millennial position held before Darby," is to start with a logical fallacy which cannot be proved. You are starting with a universal negative, and it is impossible to prove it. It is illogical. Just because one cannot find the evidence doesn't mean it is not there. Perhaps if people got their noses out RCC revised source material they would find some better material with which to use. But that means work, something most people are afraid of.
__________________
DHK

I know J.N. Darby was not the first to intoduce millenialism, but he gave it a boost that the Baptist grabbed and wouldn't let go.

You don't have any history to support your Millenium except Justin and 3 or 4 more. I wonder in Justin's Millenium doctrine if he included the fleshly desires, senual indulgences for ever desire, during the Millenium ?? Do you happen to know?

 

[DHK]

I know J.N. Darby was not the first to intoduce millenialism, but he gave it a boost that the Baptist grabbed and wouldn't let go.

You don't have any history to support your Millenium except Justin and 3 or 4 more. I wonder in Justin's Millenium doctrine if he included the fleshly desires, senual indulgences for ever desire, during the Millenium ?? Do you happen to know?

No, I just haven't had the time to research this topic in relation to the ECF. It has been one of those things that I have put on the "back burners" you might say.

 

[Brother Bob]

No, I just haven't had the time to research this topic in relation to the ECF. It has been one of those things that I have put on the "back burners" you might say.__________________
DHK

Ok, You mentioned RCC but they were the only ones who kept records back then. The Baptist sure didn't.

 

[TCGreek]

2 Cor 12
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter


From the above context, we can find no statement of equating the Paradise with the Heaven.

What we can confirm is that there exists the word " Paradise" and that Believe can go there after death or even while in the body( maybe in the state of being alive, in the vision).
Therefore the Denial of Paradise is groundless. The only thing you can say is still the equation, but it is not confirmed yet.

If you remember John 14:3, you have to claim that Jesus has come already if you claim the dead Believers went to their permanent Residence- Heaven.
Jn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

We must distinguish between temporary residence and the permanent residence.

Has Jesus come already?

1. I don't know how you missed the fact the the third heaven is the same as Paradise in 2 Cor 12:1-4:

a. V.2 αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου--such a one was caught up to the Third Heaven.

b. V.4 οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον--that he was caught to Paradise.

2. In both cases, there's a "caught up."

3. "Caught up" is the Greek word harpazo, which is also used in 1 Thess. 4:17, "will be caught up."

4. Besides, Paul says that when caught up to Paradise and "heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

5. This fits perfectly well with Heaven.

 

[Eliyahu]

Posted by Eliyahu

1. In your theology- Please confirm.
Believers death- Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to the Heaven, to be with the Lord- Praise and do anything there in Heaven- Resurrection of the Body- Enter the Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Heaven again.

Believers die--Body decays--Soul/Spirit goes to Heaven to be with the Lord, and will be there until the Resurrection takes place. When the Resurrection takes place the spirit is united with the body. At that specific time, on earth seven years of the Great Tribulation begins. At the same time the JSOC begins in heaven when all believers, in their resurrected bodies will be judged according to their works, not their sin. All their sin is forgiven. It is under the blood. When the Tribulation is ended Christ will come back to the earth and defeat the enemies of Israel at the Battle of Armageddon. This is described in Revelation 19, where it also indicates that he will come back and the saints of heaven will come back with him. At that time the beginning of the MK will begin as well. The MK will last for one thousand years, at the end of which will be the Great White Throne Judgment--the Judgment of all the Unsaved. At the same time the resurrection of the unsaved will take place so that they will stand before God in both body and spirit. This is their final sentence, where they will all be sentenced to the LOF for all eternity forever and ever (Rev.20:10,15).

I am not touching many points here but simply comment your view is based on Pre-Tribulation Rapture. For PTR one should explain how come millions of the Believers are coming out of the Great Tribulation in Re 7:9-21 while the people would not repent of their behaviors after the Rapture of the whole church, as there will be no one believer remaining on the earth, since Ro 10:14
how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
1 Cor 1: 21 it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Who can initiate the preaching the Gospel after the Rapture of all the Believers?
In the other thread for PTR, No one could explain how come so many Believers are coming out of the GT, Moreover, if the whole church was raptured already, how come the Beast find the saints and try to fight them (Re 13:7) Can you trace back to the origin of them in Revelation ?

Unbelievers death-Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hell -Soul/Spirit suffers there - Resurrection of the Body- Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment- Return to the Hell again.

The unbelievers will die, and the bodies will decay. The soul/spirit will go to Hell for the time being, where they will suffer in torment (as described in the story of the rich man and Lazarus--Luke 16). The resurrection of the usaved will take place after the thousand year MK. Their judgment will be at the GWT, where they will all be cast into the LOF in one final sentence.

According to LK 16, how could the rich man have the tongue and Lazarus have the finger. Read Mt 5:25
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.:
Can you see the sequence which Jesus is speaking about? Judge first then punishment according to the judgment ?

2. My Belief is here:
Believers death - Body decays- Soul/Spirit go to Paradise, to be with the Lord-

Scripture please? The Bible does not teach this anywhere. It is your philosophy and nothing more. One man defined philosophy as a vain man's imagination.

Robber at the Cross went to the paradise even after Jesus spoke about Lazarus and Rich man in Luke 16, and still we find the paradise mentioned in 2 Cor 12 as well. Then John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
Did Jesus come already? Then where are the dead Believers in the meantime?

Sleep there in dormant state- Awake and Resurrected with the new Body ( some may not be resurrected for 1000 years according to Re 20:4-5) - Enter the New Millennium on Earth - Judgment on the Day of Great Judgment ( maybe Believers Judgment at the Seat of Christ before that)- Enter the Heaven.

Sleep is no where defined as a dormant state. That is not a Biblical definition. You are imposing your made up definition into the Bible which is not Scriptural. In that way you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. In other words you write your own Bible according to your own definitions. This is called neo-orthodoxy.
Secondly, you have described a belief in Millennial Exclusion, a belief for which many on this board have been banned. It is heresy. To say that some believers will not be resurrected until after the MK is heresy. There is only one resurrection for believers and it happens before the Tribulation, not after. It does not happen at the same time as the unbelievers. All believers will take part in the Millennial Kingdom, no believer excluded as you have implied.

1) If I said the sequence believed by me was the Bible statement, you can say that I am inventing the Bible for my theory. But I didn’t say that. I said My Belief is like that. Therefore you should learn to tolerate the others saying their opinion. Otherwise, you may reject even the Words of Jesus if He comes again today quietly to you.
2) As for Millennial Exclusion, I thought it claims some believers are excluded and tormented for 1000 years. My belief is very simple, all the Believers souls are sleeping except the time of calling by God after the death until they are resurrected. Re 20:4-5 says
4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 the rest of the deaddid not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection. ( Darby Trans)
If there was a plain Believer in 17c and died a plain death, which category does he belong to? I tried to ask about the definition of ME, then it was closed. Does it define Re 20:5 is a heresy? What is the meaning of the Better Resurrection in Heb 11:35

Unbelievers death - Body decays-Soul/Spirit go to the Hades - Sleep or suffer pain is not certain - Awake and resurrected according to the Re 20:10-15- Great Judgment- Thrown into the Hell ( Lake of Fire)

When an unbeliever dies his spirit/soul goes into hell and suffers torment. The body decays but the spirit is in torment. This again is described in Luke 16. Christ would not preach or teach such truths from the basis of a lie. They will remain there until the GWT judgment which will take place after the MK. There is says that Death and HELL will be cast into the lake of fire. That means that Hell and all its occupants will be thrown into the LOF. Hell is real. It exists as a place of torment. Rev.20:10-15 makes that very clear.

I am sure Lk 16 has a certain limitation as these: 1) Rich man’s tongue and Lazarus finger was already recovered? 2) How can the Bosom of Abraham accommodate millions of Believers? Did he ever become a god? 3) When the rich man get the Judgment, will he stop getting the torment and go out for the judgment? He has got already tongue there. 4) Lazarus will go out to the earth to fetch the body there and live on earth for 1000 years, after He lived in the Heaven first, right? 5) How could the rich man recognize Abraham? 6) How could Abraham say “ Son”? 7) Did Rich man go to the Hell because of his good life during his life? Don't the Unbelievers go to the Hell because of their Unbelief?