When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Eliyahu]

3. Now the problem with your theology is that
Believers go to the Heaven first, then return back to the Millennium ( for Cottage?) - get the Judgment- Return back to the Heaven.

You are wrong. I never said that. I have already explained that above. Our spirit is eternal. It will go to heaven (if a believer) as soon as one dies. It will remain there, safe in the arms of Jesus, alive with Christ, until the resurrection takes place. After the resurrection takes place then the JSOC will take place, but that is still before the MK. Christ has the perogative of setting the time of the Judgment Seat of Christ. Who are we to judge Christ as to when he should set his timeline, his time and place of Judgment. Are you God, to tell him what he should do. Is he doing something wrong that you need to correct God? Are you not being somewhat arrogant at this point? I would rather take the Lord at his word, by faith, and just believe what he says as true.

JSOC means Judgment Seat of Christ? What is Perogative? Timing of JSOC can be a question, one thing very clear is that it will be before GWT. I am not arguing with God or Christ, but about your interpretation, because Going to the Heaven first, then return to the Earth for 1000 years, then return to the Heaven again. I wonder why they don’t just fetch or get the bodies delivered to the Heaven.

I have never seen this kind of chaos Theology. Please confirm if this is your expectation.

You have heard it now, but with many corrections. Obviously you never heard it properly. It is in the Bible in an orderly manner. God is a God of order, not of chaos. His words have meaning. Search them out. the word used for sleep in the Bible--look it up in the Greek. From the same Greek word comes our word "cemetery." It is a synonym often used for the death of the body, but never for the spirit or the soul. We bury the body not the soul.

Please don’t misunderstand that I deny the immortality of the soul/spirit. Souls and Spirits are eternal and still alive. Sleep means Alive. You equate Sleep with Death, I equate Sleep=Alive. Throughout the Bible, check how the souls are used. Soul represents the person. God cannot say “ Awake” to the person who is praising, or “Fallen Asleep” to the person who is praising as you said. Dozens of verses say the dead Believers are fallen asleep. You always say it indicates death of Body. When Lazarus was dead, wasn’t Jesus speaking to the Soul since his soul was separated from the Body?. When He talked about Lazarus, He said he fell asleep, if he was praising God, then could he say “ Lazarus is fallen asleep” or Lazarus is praising God?

In your theology, Unbelievers went to the Hell already before the Judgment. The Bible says, everyone will be judged and punished according to their behaviors and works. Does your theology punish the people without judgment? Then Judge them after the Punishment?

Who are you to command God when he should set the time of his judgment? If it does not agree with your theology then take your argument up with God. He set this timeline not me. I simply believe what the Bible teaches. I am only the messenger of God. Your argument is with God not me
DHK

[FONT=바탕] It is not God that says Unbelievers are sent to the Hell first, then that after 1000 years of tormentation, they can come out to get the Judgment, unless you are God, dear Brother.[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]What you believe is that Luke 16 is the Real story. Jesus made a parable, I believe. Otherwise, there are too many things to discuss about it.[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]Normally, we believe Unbelievers are going to the Hell because of their unbelief of the Redemption. Does Luke say that the Rich man was sent to the Hades, because of the good life on earth?[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]Are the People going to the Hell because of the wealth of theirs?[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Please don’t misunderstand that I deny the immortality of the soul/spirit. Souls and Spirits are eternal and still alive. Sleep means Alive. You equate Sleep with Death, I equate Sleep=Alive. Throughout the Bible, check how the souls are used. Soul represents the person. God cannot say “ Awake” to the person who is praising, or “Fallen Asleep” to the person who is praising as you said. Dozens of verses say the dead Believers are fallen asleep. You always say it indicates death of Body. When Lazarus was dead, wasn’t Jesus speaking to the Soul since his soul was separated from the Body?. When He talked about Lazarus, He said he fell asleep, if he was praising God, then could he say “ Lazarus is fallen asleep” or Lazarus is praising God?

In John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".

He then says "Lazarus is DEAD".

The person was in the dormant state -- sleep and is the state of DEATH in the case of the FIRST death.

All humanity - good or wicked - go to that dormant state when they enter "the FIRST" death.

To Eliyahu's point -- in John 11 Christ does not say "Lazarus does not EXIST" He says "Lazarus SLEEPS"

But in the second death "God destroys BOTH body AND soul" matt 10:28.

That is NOT ever called sleep.

Rather it says of the wicked "they shall BE no more".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hey - there are only 3 texts in all of the NT that speak to Paradise (4 if you think about it) and TCGreek gets; it right in 2Cor 12!

1. I don't know how you missed the fact the the third heaven is the same as Paradise in 2 Cor 12:1-4:

a. V.2 αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου--such a one was caught up to the Third Heaven.

b. V.4 οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον--that he was caught to Paradise.

2. In both cases, there's a "caught up."

indeed Paul states in 2 Cor 12 that HE was caught up to the "third heaven" which is in fact "paradise" in scripture.

in Fact Rev tells us that Paradise is where the tree of life and the throne of God are.

But 1Thess 4 and Eph 4 make no mention of the term.

Yet I have no doubt that the saints are rapture up to heaven - which is where paradise is until the New Jerusalem comes to earth after the Millennium.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

1. I don't know how you missed the fact the the third heaven is the same as Paradise in 2 Cor 12:1-4:

A good point. I notice about 40 times Ouranos was used as a Plural. Also Eph 1:20 indicates Jesus is seated in Epouraniois which I prefer to translate as Upper Heaven to Heavenly places. These plural may indicate that there are variety of the Heavens even though some may be called Paradise or Third Heaven. Stephen also mentioned he saw the heavens ( ac 7:56). In that case we can still believe that there are distinction between the Heaven as the permanent Residence and the Paradise or Third Heaven as the Temporary Residence.

a. V.2 αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου--such a one was caught up to the Third Heaven.
b. V.4 οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον--that he was caught to Paradise.
2. In both cases, there's a "caught up."
3. "Caught up" is the Greek word harpazo, which is also used in 1 Thess. 4:17, "will be caught up."

Taken up by force, etc. It doesn't tell us whether the Third Heaven or the Paradise is the permanent place or not. Have you consider this along with John 14:13? I don't think the dwelling place has been complete already and Jesus has come already.

4. Besides, Paul says that when caught up to Paradise and "heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."
5. This fits perfectly well with Heaven.

I didn't deny that the souls could speak when they are allowed by God, but as I mentioned they should rest ( Re 6:11) and should rest from their Labors ( Re 14:13)

 

[TCGreek]

A good point. I notice about 40 times Ouranos was used as a Plural. Also Eph 1:20 indicates Jesus is seated in Epouraniois which I prefer to translate as Upper Heaven to Heavenly places.

1. This is all owing to the Semitism in the NT.

2. The Hightest Heaven.

These plural may indicate that there are variety of the Heavens even though some may be called Paradise or Third Heaven. Stephen also mentioned he saw the heavens ( ac 7:56). In that case we can still believe that there are distinction between the Heaven as the permanent Residence and the Paradise or Third Heaven as the Temporary Residence.

3. You still found some way to separate Paradise from the Hightest Heaven, when Scripture does not.[/QUOTE]

4. In Rabbinic writings around the time of Paul, they spoke of three heavens: 1. Atmospehic, Planetary, and the Highest Heaven, the dwelling place of God.

Taken up by force, etc. It doesn't tell us whether the Third Heaven or the Paradise is the permanent place or not. Have you consider this along with John 14:13? I don't think the dwelling place has been complete already and Jesus has come already.

4. At this point, I'm concerned with the true location of Paradise.

I didn't deny that the souls could speak when they are allowed by God, but as I mentioned they should rest ( Re 6:11) and should rest from their Labors ( Re 14:13)

5. Within 2 Cor 12, Paul speaks of Revelations and Visions, which would hardly come from saints.

6. Revelation 6 and 14 are totally immaterial at this point.

 

[Eliyahu]

He gives no references whatsoever. Why should I accept his history instead of the one I gave which does give references. Maybe some were heretics, but I think Justin was called a heretic also and he agreed with your thousand year literal reign, but not sure what it included. I think some history says they would have sensual indulgences of all fleshly desires in that Millenium................

The history was a part of a certain thesis and had the references but on the internet it doesn't show the references.

I will show you another site which may be more famous:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-000.htm

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-041.htm

This is Pilgrim Church written by EH Broadbent who was English/German and hiself surveyed many countries including Central Asia, Armenia, etc.
On this site you may not find the references but on the Book, there are many references.

However, I believe there are not so many supporting evidences for the historical events except few records or discoveries.
For example. Key of Truth for Paulicians by Conybeare 1896, Bazaar Heraclides by Nestorius 1895 which proved Nestorius was different from Nestorians which was depiced by his enemies. He didn't claim dual personality of Jesus but claimed 2 characters in one person.
There are some records about the Albigenes discovered in Lyon, and also the record of Interrogation by the inquisitors.
On the other hand we can detect and learn from the CAtholic records that there were Baptists during the early centuries like 4-5 centuries as we hear about Milevi Council.
RCC condemned many true believers as Heretics, then forfeited their properties, tortured and killed them, then burnt their writings. However we can detect what they did to the True Believers.
e.g. Milevi Council condemned those who rejected Infant Baptism. There we can fathom there were Baptists around 5 century.

YOu'd better read the History of the Brethren or Baptists.

 

[Brother Bob]

Eliyahu;
You still have not given me any rebute to the History I gave you. It didn't come from the Catholics only, but several sources that the Millenium was taught as Spiritual for hundreds of years. Now if you can give me references where someone taught a literal Millenium during the years from 3AD until the 18th Century, I would be interested in studing that?

 

[DHK]

I am not touching many points here but simply comment your view is based on Pre-Tribulation Rapture. For PTR one should explain how come millions of the Believers are coming out of the Great Tribulation in Re 7:9-21 while the people would not repent of their behaviors after the Rapture of the whole church, as there will be no one believer remaining on the earth, since Ro 10:14
how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Not everything in the Bible is a clear-cut as you may think it to be. Therefore you are simply reading into it what you want to read into read into without much serous Bible study. The PTR takes place before Revelation 7, even before Revelation 6. 1Thes. 4::13-15 indicates that very clearly as well as number of other verses.
Secondly the passage in Rev.7:9-21 is speaking of a definite period within the Tribulation Period and is open to a number of interpretations which scholars have debated upon throughout the centuries. Nothing will be solved by inserting such passages as that into this discussion. Is the passage referring only to the Jews? Possibly. Is it referring to a goup of people during the Tribulation that never had the chance to hear the gospel not even once before the Tribulation started? Possibly. Could it be referring to just anyone in the Tribulation whom God is offering a second chance? Very unlikely. The passage does not say that "millions," but rather a "great multitude" which John saw. It occurs immediatley after the first half the passage describes the sealing of 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Thus it could very well refer to the Jews. Whatever the case it has nothing to do with the PTR, which took place long before this event takes place.

1 Cor 1: 21 it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Who can initiate the preaching the Gospel after the Rapture of all the Believers?
In the other thread for PTR, No one could explain how come so many Believers are coming out of the GT, Moreover, if the whole church was raptured already, how come the Beast find the saints and try to fight them (Re 13:7) Can you trace back to the origin of them in Revelation ?

After the rapture there is no preaching of the gospel. That is a misunderstanding of some. There is a proclamation of the truth, a witness to the truth, but no direct evangelism. The Holy Spirit will be absent during the Tribulation Period. There won't be any believers coming out of the Tribulaton Period. What believers there may have been they would have been martyred. The only one's that may be God's people coming out of the Tribulation are the Jews who, as a nation, will be saved during that period of time.

According to LK 16, how could the rich man have the tongue and Lazarus have the finger. Read Mt 5:25
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.:
Can you see the sequence which Jesus is speaking about? Judge first then punishment according to the judgment ?

Jesus is simply speaking of a sequence of events on earth not of end times. Why are you confusing the two. Church discipline has nothing to do with eschatology.

Robber at the Cross went to the paradise even after Jesus spoke about Lazarus and Rich man in Luke 16, and still we find the paradise mentioned in 2 Cor 12 as well. Then John 14:3

The paradise Jesus spoke of while alive on the cross can still said to be "pre-cross," for he had not yet died. It was OT. After his death, burial and resurrection, that particular resurrection no longer existed and the word became a synonym for heaven. That has already been demonstrated to you through Scripture by TCGreek.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

As clear as can be isn't it. No soul sleep there. Jesus is preparing a place for us. When we die we will go to that place which he has prepared for us.
Did Jesus come already? Then where are the dead Believers in the meantime?

1) If I said the sequence believed by me was the Bible statement, you can say that I am inventing the Bible for my theory. But I didn’t say that. I said My Belief is like that. Therefore you should learn to tolerate the others saying their opinion. Otherwise, you may reject even the Words of Jesus if He comes again today quietly to you.

Not if your wrong, which I firmly believe you are.

2) As for Millennial Exclusion, I thought it claims some believers are excluded and tormented for 1000 years.

That is correct. All that you have done is left out the torment. You still exclude them from the Millennial Kingdom. Thus it is still a revised form of ME.

My belief is very simple, all the Believers souls are sleeping except the time of calling by God after the death until they are resurrected. Re 20:4-5 says

Indeed, what I would respectively call a silly belief. Jesus promises a home in heaven; and you say that home is so that we can go and sleep it off until the day of resurrection. I find no such ridiculous teaching in Scripture. We are not drunkards that need to sleep until the day of the resurrection but may enjoy the glories of heaven as soon as we die.

4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 the rest of the deaddid not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection. ( Darby Trans)
If there was a plain Believer in 17c and died a plain death, which category does he belong to? I tried to ask about the definition of ME, then it was closed. Does it define Re 20:5 is a heresy? What is the meaning of the Better Resurrection in Heb 11:35

Heb. 11:35 has nothing to do with this passage. This is the end of the Tribulation Period. The believers which were part of the first resurrection will be rewarded. But those who must wait until the second resurrection will stand before the Great White throne Judgement and face the final sentencing of God before they are thrown into the LOF. The rest of the dead (the unbelievers) did not live until the thousand years had been completed--until the MK was finished, and then the GWT takes place where those unsaved will be judged. The saved are resurrected before the MK, and in fact seven years prior to that, and the unsaved 1000 years later.

 

[DHK]

I am sure Lk 16 has a certain limitation as these: 1) Rich man’s tongue and Lazarus finger was already recovered? 2) How can the Bosom of Abraham accommodate millions of Believers? Did he ever become a god? 3) When the rich man get the Judgment, will he stop getting the torment and go out for the judgment? He has got already tongue there. 4) Lazarus will go out to the earth to fetch the body there and live on earth for 1000 years, after He lived in the Heaven first, right? 5) How could the rich man recognize Abraham? 6) How could Abraham say “ Son”? 7) Did Rich man go to the Hell because of his good life during his life? Don't the Unbelievers go to the Hell because of their Unbelief?

God does not have a right hand, but the Bible says he does.
God does not have wings but the Bible says he does.
Christ is not a literal door, but the Bible says he is.
There are many metaphors, similies, and figures of speech in the Bible that we must recognize when they are being used. We use common sense. They are not difficult to spot. Neither are they difficult to spot in the English language. If you say that you are in a "traffic jam" I am sure that you do not think of "strawberry jam." All languages have their idioms. Most are not difficult to figure out, even when translated.

Contrary to popular opinion I do not believe that the story told in Luke 16 is a parable, but an actual event in history. Josephus tells us that the name of the rich man in question was "Dives." All the other people are named by Christ. No parable has named people. Christ would not make up a fictional story based on actual characters, nor would he base a story on lies or fiction.

The Scriptures speak of God as a spirit and rightly so. See John 4:24. Yet for our understanding it speaks of him in anthropormorphic terms that we may understand him better, using such terms as: hands, arms, face, etc.

Angels are also spirit beings. Theologians often philosophize about how many angels can stand upon the head of a needle. The question is not as useless as one may think. The answer is an innumerable amount, for angels are spirits, and spirits are formless. Yet John saw the angels in the Book of Revelation. Twice he was tempted to fall down and worship one of them. He saw them worshipping and praising God. He saw certain orders of angels: the seraphim and the cherubim. But they were all spirit beings nevertheless. John describes them as having form. But his vision was very unique.
We also will be in heaven as spirits when we die.
The rich man was a spirit when he died and suffered (and still does) torment. If you want a full explanation of the how and why you can ask the Lord when you get there. But I take the Bible by faith, and believe it to be true, as it is written. I have no reason not to. Jesus would not teach truth using lies.

 

[angelfire]

2 Cor 5:8 says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (NKJV) When the Believer dies, he (or she) is immediately in the Lord's presence.

Solomon tells us in Eccliastes that..." the living know that they must die..buut the dead know NOTHING" It is wrong to assume the SPIRIT and SOUL are one and the same. If this were so ,then we would NOT be made in the image of GOD , but a DUALITY being --NOT a tri-une being. Solomon also says that ,at death the SPIRIT goes to God ( NO time gap). The soul ( ego ,personality) goes to the grave. where it SLEEPS until Christs return Mth 24 etc. Death is SLEEP --Christ says it , Solomon says it ,and on and on. What could be plainer? The dead in Christ are NOT invited to get back in their graves ,just so Christ will have something to do when He returns--thats ridiculous and UN-scriptural. and doesnt fit with logic. The story of Lazarus is just that ; a STORY . This throws a monkey wrencch into the Pre-trib rapture theory because in fact the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL NOT be preceeded by a pre-trib rapture of ANYONE Just what is a TRIBULATION for , anyway? who is being tormented in a "tribulation" if the saints are gone? certainly NOT the UNSAVED SORRY folks BUT there is NO PRE-trib rapture --the CHURCH will go through 3 1/2 years of hell on earth "absent fronm the body--(-time gap sleep 'til Christs return 0---present with the Lord"
angelfire

 

[Eliyahu]

1. This is all owing to the Semitism in the NT.
2. The Hightest Heaven.
3. You still found some way to separate Paradise from the Hightest Heaven, when Scripture does not.

We are not sure whether the Third Heaven is the same as the Paradise or whether the Paradise is in the Third Heaven and a part of Heavens. What we can be sure is that the Paradise which was mentioned by Jesus when He spoke to the Robber was still in existence at the time of Apostle Paul.

4. In Rabbinic writings around the time of Paul, they spoke of three heavens: 1. Atmospehic, Planetary, and the Highest Heaven, the dwelling place of God.

There were lots of speculation about the next life or Eschatology at the time of Haesmonean Dynasty or Intra-Testamental period.

4. At this point, I'm concerned with the true location of Paradise.

The question is like asking where is the location of Heaven. If we can call the Permanent Residence for the Believers the Kingdom of Heaven, there must be a Paradise for the Temporal Residence. I am sure there are lots of room for the Paradise or for the Heaven in the Universe, though they are invisible.

5. Within 2 Cor 12, Paul speaks of Revelations and Visions, which would hardly come from saints.

Paul speaks about a man who has seen the Paradise in the vision as John saw the Altar under which the souls of Martyrs were there.

6. Revelation 6 and 14 are totally immaterial at this point.

You conveniently reject the Bible portion which is against your thought but still in the Bible.

At the moment the issue is whether the Souls are going to the Heaven, the permanent heaven directly or to the Paradise, a temporal place first, then will be resurrected and spend 1000 years on the earth, then go to the Heaven for the permanent residence.

Or according to your theology,
All the souls go to the Heaven directly for the permanent residence, but will be resurrected to fetch the bodies, then come out to the Earth, emptying the Heaven, then come back to the Heaven after 1000 years.

 

[Eliyahu]

Not everything in the Bible is a clear-cut as you may think it to be. Therefore you are simply reading into it what you want to read into read into without much serous Bible study. The PTR takes place before Revelation 7, even before Revelation 6. 1Thes. 4::13-15 indicates that very clearly as well as number of other verses.

You have little idea about the time sequence of Revelation. Read Re 12:1-5 which tells us the Birth and the Ascension of Man-Child to God in Heaven. Does it happen after the Tribulation? Do you admit that the man-child is the Son of God, Jesus Christ? 1 Th 4:13-15 says the Believers which are asleep, which sleep in Jesus, which fell asleep.

Secondly the passage in Rev.7:9-21 is speaking of a definite period within the Tribulation Period and is open to a number of interpretations which scholars have debated upon throughout the centuries. Nothing will be solved by inserting such passages as that into this discussion. Is the passage referring only to the Jews? Possibly. Is it referring to a group of people during the Tribulation that never had the chance to hear the gospel not even once before the Tribulation started? Possibly. Could it be referring to just anyone in the Tribulation whom God is offering a second chance? Very unlikely. The passage does not say that "millions," but rather a "great multitude" which John saw. It occurs immediately after the first half the passage describes the sealing of 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Thus it could very well refer to the Jews. Whatever the case it has nothing to do with the PTR, which took place long before this event takes place.

You brought the argument based on the Pre-Tribulation, and that’s why I respond to this matter. Those people are coming out of the Tribulation and washed their robes by the Blood of the Lamb ( Re 7:14), they are out of all nations, of kindreds, of peoples, of tongues, and they cannot be the Jews. Read the Greek words there. I have never met anyone contesting that they are the gentiles before. Where is the Rapture and Resurrection of the Believers which may be one of the Biggest Event in the World history, in the Church history. We see only the Second coming of Jesus in Re 19 and the Resurrection of the Unbelievers in Re 20:11-15. Another event of the coming out of the Believers from the Tribulation. Then Where are the more important events, Resurrection of the Believers, Rapture of the Believers? Even 2 witnesses’ Ascension is revealed in Re 11:11-13. Where are the tens of millions of Believers’ Rapture and hundreds of millions of previous believers’ Resurrection? Are they less important than the Unbelievers? Or 2 witnesses?

After the rapture there is no preaching of the gospel. That is a misunderstanding of some. There is a proclamation of the truth, a witness to the truth, but no direct evangelism. The Holy Spirit will be absent during the Tribulation Period. There won't be any believers coming out of the Tribulation Period. What believers there may have been they would have been martyred. The only one's that may be God's people coming out of the Tribulation are the Jews who, as a nation, will be saved during that period of time.

How are they saved without any preachers left out after the Rapture of the church?
This is why I referred to Romans 10:14 and 1 Cor 1:21. At the time of Pentecost, there were thousands of Believers left behind Jesus and they preached the Gospel. Who can initiate the preaching?

The paradise Jesus spoke of while alive on the cross can still said to be "pre-cross," for he had not yet died. It was OT. After his death, burial and resurrection, that particular resurrection no longer existed and the word became a synonym for heaven. That has already been demonstrated to you through Scripture by TCGreek.

I already told him that one thing undeniable is that the Paradise still exists even after the Resurrection of Jesus. If it was a synonym for the heaven it should have been the synonym even at the time of the Robber at the Cross.
2) As for Millennial Exclusion, I thought it claims some believers are excluded and tormented for 1000 years.

That is correct. All that you have done is left out the torment. You still exclude them from the Millennial Kingdom. Thus it is still a revised form of ME.

My belief is very simple, all the Believers souls are sleeping except the time of calling by God after the death until they are resurrected. Re 20:4-5 says

Indeed, what I would respectively call a silly belief. Jesus promises a home in heaven; and you say that home is so that we can go and sleep it off until the day of resurrection. I find no such ridiculous teaching in Scripture. We are not drunkards that need to sleep until the day of the resurrection but may enjoy the glories of heaven as soon as we die.

No one is silly as long as he or she is based on the Bible Truth. You could never answer which group of the Believers in Re 20:4-5 the plain believers of 17c who died the plain death belong to. If you answer, you will find the objection to Partial Rapture is groundless. Watch out the condemnation in Mt 5:22 when you say Silly.
Quote:
4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection. ( Darby Trans)If there was a plain Believer in 17c and died a plain death, which category does he belong to? I tried to ask about the definition of ME, then it was closed. Does it define Re 20:5 is a heresy? What is the meaning of the Better Resurrection in Heb 11:35

This is the end of the Tribulation Period. The believers which were part of the first resurrection will be rewarded. But those who must wait until the second resurrection will stand before the Great White throne Judgment and face the final sentencing of God before they are thrown into the LOF. The rest of the dead (the unbelievers) did not live until the thousand years had been completed--until the MK was finished, and then the GWT takes place where those unsaved will be judged. The saved are resurrected before the MK, and in fact seven years prior to that, and the unsaved 1000 years later.

In Re 20:4 there are 3 groups of Believers –1) Judge group, 2) Martyrs 3) Believers who rejected the Beast and Harlot.
Then in Re 20:5, Rest of the dead will not be resurrected again for 1000 years.

a) Where does the Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5 belong to?
b) Where do the plain Believer who died the plain death in 17 century?

I am sure Lk 16 has a certain limitation as these: 1) Rich man’s tongue and Lazarus finger was already recovered? 2) How can the Bosom of Abraham accommodate millions of Believers? Did he ever become a god? 3) When the rich man get the Judgment, will he stop getting the torment and go out for the judgment? He has got already tongue there. 4) Lazarus will go out to the earth to fetch the body there and live on earth for 1000 years, after He lived in the Heaven first, right? 5) How could the rich man recognize Abraham? 6) How could Abraham say “ Son”? 7) Did Rich man go to the Hell because of his good life during his life? Don't the Unbelievers go to the Hell because of their Unbelief?

God does not have a right hand, but the Bible says he does.
God does not have wings but the Bible says he does.
Christ is not a literal door, but the Bible says he is.
There are many metaphors, similies, and figures of speech in the Bible that we must recognize when they are being used. We use common sense. They are not difficult to spot. Neither are they difficult to spot in the English language. If you say that you are in a "traffic jam" I am sure that you do not think of "strawberry jam." All languages have their idioms. Most are not difficult to figure out, even when translated.

The Scriptures speak of God as a spirit and rightly so. See John 4:24. Yet for our understanding it speaks of him in anthropormorphic terms that we may understand him better, using such terms as: hands, arms, face, etc.

Yet John saw the angels in the Book of Revelation. Twice he was tempted to fall down and worship one of them. He saw them worshipping and praising God. He saw certain orders of angels: the seraphim and the cherubim. But they were all spirit beings nevertheless. John describes them as having form. But his vision was very unique.
We also will be in heaven as spirits when we die.
The rich man was a spirit when he died and suffered (and still does) torment. If you want a full explanation of the how and why you can ask the Lord when you get there. But I take the Bible by faith, and believe it to be true, as it is written. I have no reason not to. Jesus would not teach truth using lies.

You partly admit the limitation of the story as a metaphor.
If the Rich man didn’t have a tongue, where did he feel the pain?
Was the Water the real thing at that time? Why did the Rich man ask the water if he had no body for the water to be used for?
Did Rich man see Abraham before so that he could recognize Abraham?
Was the Bosom of Abraham preserving only Lazarus? Or all the other Believers?
You conveniently interpret the part of the story as a metaphor while you claim the whole story is based on the actual events.

Before the Cross, Before the Resurrection, was the Paradise a place like a Bosom of Abraham?

 

[TCGreek]

We are not sure whether the Third Heaven is the same as the Paradise or whether the Paradise is in the Third Heaven and a part of Heavens. What we can be sure is that the Paradise which was mentioned by Jesus when He spoke to the Robber was still in existence at the time of Apostle Paul.

1. You're not sure but I'm sure that Paradise is referring to the Dwelling place of God, Heaven, the highest heaven.

There were lots of speculation about the next life or Eschatology at the time of Haesmonean Dynasty or Intra-Testamental period.

2. Was Paul therefore speculating about the Third Heaven?

The question is like asking where is the location of Heaven. If we can call the Permanent Residence for the Believers the Kingdom of Heaven, there must be a Paradise for the Temporal Residence. I am sure there are lots of room for the Paradise or for the Heaven in the Universe, though they are invisible.

3. I see your theology cannot cope with Paradise this side of the Cross of Christ.

Paul speaks about a man who has seen the Paradise in the vision as John saw the Altar under which the souls of Martyrs were there.


You conveniently reject the Bible portion which is against your thought but still in the Bible.

At the moment the issue is whether the Souls are going to the Heaven, the permanent heaven directly or to the Paradise, a temporal place first, then will be resurrected and spend 1000 years on the earth, then go to the Heaven for the permanent residence.

Or according to your theology,
All the souls go to the Heaven directly for the permanent residence, but will be resurrected to fetch the bodies, then come out to the Earth, emptying the Heaven, then come back to the Heaven after 1000 years.

4. Oh, Paradise, Where art thou?

a. In Rev. 2:7, we read, "To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God."

b. Later John tells us, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city" (Rev. 22:14, emphasis mine).

c. This is a vision where John in the Spirit was shown "the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:10, emphasis mine).

 

[Eliyahu]

1. You're not sure but I'm sure that Paradise is referring to the Dwelling place of God, Heaven, the highest heaven.
2. Was Paul therefore speculating about the Third Heaven?

The reason why I mentioned that there were lots of speculation during Haesmonean Period was because you brought the story about the Rabbinic theory to support your claim. My point was that such speculation cannot be the bases of the debate at all.

3. I see your theology cannot cope with Paradise this side of the Cross of Christ.

4. Oh, Paradise, Where art thou?

Where is it?

a. In Rev. 2:7, we read, "To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God."

Where is it?

b. Later John tells us, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city" (Rev. 22:14, emphasis mine).

As if I didn't know that.

c. This is a vision where John in the Spirit was shown "the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:10, emphasis mine).

Correct.

 

[Andre]

2. When Jesus and the NT writers use sleep as a euphemish for death, they are saying that the dead in gone and therefore not conscious of life as we know it--there's no relating between the dead and the living.

I offer the following counterargument. There is no disputing that "sleep" is often used as a metaphor for death. I think we all agree on that. But I think we have to honour that metaphor and I think it is clear that the distinguishing feature of sleep - and therefore the basis for its choice by the writers of scripture - is lack of consciousness.

I would be interested in hearing a justification for the view that you express above - that the metaphor of sleep is intended to communicate the inability of the dead to communicate with the living. I would think that metaphors based on notions of separation would do a much better job in this respect. Why? Because on your take (at least as expressed above), the key point is the existence of a "wall" between the living and the dead.

Sleep is the only state that every human being has entered that has the feature of unconsciousness. It seems like a tremendous co-incidence that this particular metaphor would be used to denote mere "separation from the living, while retaining full conscious existence". After all, there are so many other metaphors that would connote kind of separation you are talking about while not suggesting loss consciousness. Why pick the one that uniquely transmits the notion of unconsciousness to the reader if, in fact, the dead are fully conscious?

 

[TCGreek]

The reason why I mentioned that there were lots of speculation during Haesmonean Period was because you brought the story about the Rabbinic theory to support your claim. My point was that such speculation cannot be the bases of the debate at all.

1. Why then did Paul refer to the Third Heaven? What are the first and the second heavens?

Where is it?
As if I didn't know that.
Correct.

2. We should let the scriptural data inform our conclusions.

 

[TCGreek]

I offer the following counterargument. There is no disputing that "sleep" is often used as a metaphor for death. I think we all agree on that. But I think we have to honour that metaphor and I think it is clear that the distinguishing feature of sleep - and therefore the basis for its choice by the writers of scripture - is lack of consciousness.

I would be interested in hearing a justification for the view that you express above - that the metaphor of sleep is intended to communicate the inability of the dead to communicate with the living. I would think that metaphors based on notions of separation would do a much better job in this respect. Why? Because on your take (at least as expressed above), the key point is the existence of a "wall" between the living and the dead.

Sleep is the only state that every human being has entered that has the feature of unconsciousness. It seems like a tremendous co-incidence that this particular metaphor would be used to denote mere "separation from the living, while retaining full conscious existence". After all, there are so many other metaphors that would connote kind of separation you are talking about while not suggesting loss consciousness. Why pick the one that uniquely transmits the notion of unconsciousness to the reader if, in fact, the dead are fully conscious?

1. I need Scripture and not our own experience.

2. Why reason from our experience to interpret Scripture?

3. I can only go with what the Scripture say. Death is separation of the spirit from the body (Jas 2:26).

4. The Bible says nothing about the soul going to sleeping. Nothing. You are the ones who are forcing soul sleep upon the text.

 

[Andre]

1. I need Scripture and not our own experience.

2. Why reason from our experience to interpret Scripture?

3. I can only go with what the Scripture say. Death is separation of the spirit from the body (Jas 2:26).

4. The Bible says nothing about the soul going to sleeping. Nothing. You are the ones who are forcing soul sleep upon the text.

Reference to experience is, of course, what euphemisms and metaphors are all about. These literary devices gain their purchase precisely because of experience.

Death as separation from the body pre-supposes that there is a conciousness-bearing soul / spirit that can be separated from the body. I believe that the Scriptures do not teach this and challenge posters to provide Scriptural evidence that does not require that one buy into such a view as an unstated assumption.

The interpretation of James 2:26 as supporting the notion that death = separation of a conscious soul / spirit from the body is an example of an interpretation that illicitly assumes the very thing the text is being used to support.

Here is how this works in the case of James 2:26:

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

All this text can legitimately be used to conclude is this: that the body without the spirit is dead. It says nothing about whether or not the spirit bears the property of consciousness. If you are going to argue that this is a necessary implication, please consider the following analogy. A light bulb without electricity flowing through it is dead in the sense of not giving light. This, of course, does not mean that the "light" is carried as property of either the light bulb or the electricity.

So there is no logical necessity that a "spirit" bears consciousness. All we know from the James text is that without a spirit, the body is dead.

And the Bible never says that a soul is a disembodied entity that bears consciousness. This is something that you are forcing on the text. But please prove me wrong. Show me one scriptural text that forces us to conclude that the soul bears consciousness, to the exclusion of other interpretations.

 

[Andre]

4. The Bible says nothing about the soul going to sleeping. Nothing. You are the ones who are forcing soul sleep upon the text.

I assume that your interpretation is that the body is the "thing" that sleeps and not the soul? I do not believe the Scriptures teach the existence of a consciousness bearing soul. But let's say that I agree with you about the existence of a consciousness-bearing soul.

Does it make sense for the writers of scripture to use the metaphor of sleep - with its uniquely distinctive feature of unconsciousness - if it is the soul and / or spirit where the very seat of consciousness lies?

 

[Brother Bob]

sleep suggest "rest", as Paul spoke of. There is a rest that remaineth for them that love and serve the Lord.