When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[TCGreek]

Reference to experience is, of course, what euphemisms and metaphors are all about. These literary devices gain their purchase precisely because of experience.

1. But we must be cautious of analogical fallacies. Scripture then provides the necessary parameters.

Death as separation from the body pre-supposes that there is a conciousness-bearing soul / spirit that can be separated from the body. I believe that the Scriptures do not teach this and challenge posters to provide Scriptural evidence that does not require that one buy into such a view as an unstated assumption.

2. Whatever we want to make of the distinction betwee soul and spirit, I find this Scripture to be quite instructive: "And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, "Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping." And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But taking her by the hand he called, saying, "Child, arise." And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat" (Luke 8:52-55, emphasis mine).

a. Here was a perfect opportunity to say that sleeping means the soul is sleeping.

b. Instead, when resuscitated, it is her spirit that is in view. The Scripture is virtually silent and about the soul at death. We find ourselves speculating about the soul and going beyond speculation to dogma.

The interpretation of James 2:26 as supporting the notion that death = separation of a conscious soul / spirit from the body is an example of an interpretation that illicitly assumes the very thing the text is being used to support.

Here is how this works in the case of James 2:26:

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

All this text can legitimately be used to conclude is this: that the body without the spirit is dead. It says nothing about whether or not the spirit bears the property of consciousness. If you are going to argue that this is a necessary implication, please consider the following analogy. A light bulb without electricity flowing through it is dead in the sense of not giving light. This, of course, does not mean that the "light" is carried as property of either the light bulb or the electricity.

So there is no logical necessity that a "spirit" bears consciousness. All we know from the James text is that without a spirit, the body is dead.

3. "The body without the spirit is dead." That statement works quite well for me. No theologizing is needed.

And the Bible never says that a soul is a disembodied entity that bears consciousness. This is something that you are forcing on the text. But please prove me wrong. Show me one scriptural text that forces us to conclude that the soul bears consciousness, to the exclusion of other interpretations.

4. I don't believe you are refuting a statement that I made.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. Why then did Paul refer to the Third Heaven? What are the first and the second heavens?

Actually that's what we had to define first. When John mentioned the first heaven in Re 21:1. I believe he meant it in contrast to the New Heaven. Do you think you know all the definitions of the first heaven, second heaven, third heaven, Epouranos, New Heaven, Paraadise, Paradise of God, etc? Do you think there is any other Paradise than the Paradise of God? Some may be answered easily according to his or her individual belief but others not.
This is why I asked you the question, where is the Paradise of God? Where is the Heaven? Sometimes we don't knoe what the questions are aimed at, moreover I didn't want to expand the arguments further by brining another Bible verses as we have already enough amount of disagreement on the interpretation of so many verses.

2. We should let the scriptural data inform our conclusions.

The core of the arguments are these:
1) Whether the souls sleep or are active
2) Whether the souls go to the permanent place of Heaven or to the temporary dwelling which is still in Jesus.

I didn't think this issue had to be dealt with the Eschatology as a whole such as PTR or Resurrection of the Believers. However, DHK brought this issue first. That's why I responded to him.

Here my difficulty to prove Soul Sleep is very simple.

Because you reject the meaning of word " SLEEP" and instead equate it with Death. In my term, Sleep is equal to Alive. We cannot call the dead body is sleeping. When the Bible says, a person is sleeping, it talks about the Soul because souls are representing the person as you read in the Bible. Bible is not talking about the body, but the person himself, and the person himself has only the Soul/Spirit, and Bible describes that Soul/Spirit as sleeping many times. But you reject it, sadly. That's why I tried to show the " Rest " at least in the Revelation, which you ignore again.

 

[TCGreek]

Actually that's what we had to define first. When John mentioned the first heaven in Re 21:1. I believe he meant it in contrast to the New Heaven. Do you think you know all the definitions of the first heaven, second heaven, third heaven, Epouranos, New Heaven, Paraadise, Paradise of God, etc? Do you think there is any other Paradise than the Paradise of God? Some may be answered easily according to his or her individual belief but others not.
This is why I asked you the question, where is the Paradise of God? Where is the Heaven? Sometimes we don't knoe what the questions are aimed at, moreover I didn't want to expand the arguments further by brining another Bible verses as we have already enough amount of disagreement on the interpretation of so many verses.

1. Of course to maintain your theology, you must find another way of handling with the text of Scripture.

2. At every level of scriptural interpretations, the interpreter is appropriately compelled to do some systematizing. For me, I find Paradise in the Highest Heavens, the Heaven where God dwells (2 Cor 12:1-4).

Because you reject the meaning of word " SLEEP" and instead equate it with Death.

3. I reject your soul sleep. The Bible equates sleep with death, not me (Luke 8:52-55; John 11:12-14).

4. But you will not accept this, because it does fit your theology. But I will accept it, because it is what the Scripture say.

 

[Eliyahu]

2. At every level of scriptural interpretations, the interpreter is appropriately compelled to do some systematizing. For me, I find Paradise in the Highest Heavens, the Heaven where God dwells (2 Cor 12:1-4).

I can still ask you " where is it?"

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu;
You still have not given me any rebute to the History I gave you. It didn't come from the Catholics only, but several sources that the Millenium was taught as Spiritual for hundreds of years. Now if you can give me references where someone taught a literal Millenium during the years from 3AD until the 18th Century, I would be interested in studing that?

I can tell what is the right history, because the historian is not right if he doesn't give the right assessment on the idolatry and goddess worship of any catholicism. The true history is based on the Baptists and Brethen who refused the idolatry.
There are references in the paper books of what I mentioned, but on the internet you cannot find it.
Also, there are many histories of church written by other Baptists or Brethren. I and the True believers reject any history in condemning the True Believers and beautifying Catholicism which may be found in RCC, Orthodox, COE, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyeterian as well.

 

[Eliyahu]

Both DHK, TCGreek,

I don't want to hold you in this subject too much and instead want to summarize the outstanding issues as follows, from the point of my view as the thread nears the end.

1. I already mentioned the strong bases for the Soul Sleep as follows.

- Souls are the representatives of the persons as TCGReek checked and agreed.

- Bible says that the dead believers are sleeping. Dead body decays, and cannot be said the dead bodies are sleeping because Sleeping means Alive. Dead Bodies are decayed and corrupted and stinked as Jn 11:39
When the word Sleep was addressed to a person, it was not addressed to the body because it decays, not alive, but it was addressed to the soul/spirit because they are alive and the only remaining after the body is gone to death.

No one can say that the person sleeps while the Souls are praising or working.

I cannot explain more than what the Bible shows:

The Bible says this:
Lazarus fell asleep ( Jn11)
Stephen fell asleep ( Ac 7:60)
Sinned Believers sleep ( 1 Cor 11:30) after death
We shall not all sleep ( 1 Cor 15:51) ( We shall sleep, otherwise, if we sing and praise God, then he wouldn’t have said so)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope ( 1 Th 4:13) ( Because Paul knew that they were sleeping !)
God will bring them who sleep in Jesus ( 1 Th 4:14)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep ( 1 Th 4:15)
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. ( 1 Th 5:10) – we see sleep is used in contrast to Wake, not to death or die.

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished ( 1 Cor 15:18)

Jesus noticed the dormant state of the dead girl and therefore said this:

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn ( Mt 9:24)

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. ( Luke 8:52)

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. ( Eph 5:14)


Why did Jews scoff at Jesus?

39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. 40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. 41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. 42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment

Didn’t Jews scorn because they understood the weight of meaning in the word of Sleep by Jesus?

[FONT=바탕]If they accepted the Sleep as Dead, they wouldn't scoff at Him.[/FONT]


2.
Now the outstanding issues of the Resurrection and Rapture are these.

1) Bible explains about the millions of Believers coming out of the Tribulation. DHK argued the number " millions" but we notice 144,000 was numbered while John said innumerable number of people from all nations which nobody count. If he numbered 144,000 then it must be much more than that.
- So far nobody could explain how such number of people start to believe without a preacher while Bible says repeatedly that people would not repent of their deeds.

- Bible describes the Resurrection of the Unbelievers ( Re 20:11-15)
Second coming of Jesus( Re 19), Believers Coming out of the Tribulation ( Re 7:9-15), then where is the Resurrection of the Believers? Where is the Rapture of the Believers? Are they less important than the Unbelievers' Resurrection?
Why are their Rapture or Resurrection not mentioned while the Salvation of the innumerable number of Believers from Tribulation which nobody can count is mentioned, even 2 witnesses' ascension is mentioned.

Are they less important or are they mentioned elsewhere which you didn't mention?

All the believers have waited for that time of Resurrection of the Believers. Where is it mentioned in Revelation?

I asked the question about which categories of Re 20:4 the plain believers of 17 century and the fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5 will belong to, if the believers are all resurrected.
I clearly mentioned the verse 5 of Re 20 excludes the resurrection of other believers than those who are mentioned in Re 20:4.

Where is the Resurrection of the Believers which was so much anticipated by the church thru the history? Where is the Rapture in Revelation before the Tribulation?

These are the arguments from my side. You can review the points once again, and the weight of my argument is in the relation between the Person and Soul, and the fact that the Bible states " Sleep" for each dead person.

 

[Brother Bob]

Elijahu;
and?
Now if you can give me references where someone taught a literal Millenium during the years from 3AD until the 18th Century, I would be interested in studing that?

 

[Eliyahu]

Elijahu;
and? Now if you can give me references where someone taught a literal Millenium during the years from 3AD until the 18th Century, I would be interested in studing that?

Actually I have not studied the historical side of the New Millennium but just know that our churches believe it, and I believe it too. The historical aspects may be the subject of my future study, but I don't expect any accuracy from the ancient believers as some portion of the Eschatology was not revealed very much to earlier believers though the Bible was written in ancient times.

 

[BobRyan]

All that "ceases" at death gives us a "clue" as to why God calls this dormant state "sleep"

Hint: This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

As I said before - these kinds of texts may not be very popular - but we all have read them and I for one can not ignore them.[/quote]

 

[DHK]

Elijahu;
and?
Now if you can give me references where someone taught a literal Millenium during the years from 3AD until the 18th Century, I would be interested in studing that?

You sound more like a Catholic these days Bob. What is more important to you: the early church fathers? or the Word of God? I put my faith in the Word of God not the writings of man. It really doesn't matter what they believed. What matters is what God says.

 

[BobRyan]

Elijahu;
and?
Now if you can give me references where someone taught a literal Millenium during the years from 3AD until the 18th Century, I would be interested in studing that?

Fair enough!

70AD to 100 AD range.

The Apostle John.

Rev 20 speaks specifically of the 1000 years.

That would be "one".:thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

You sound more like a Catholic these days Bob. What is more important to you: the early church fathers? or the Word of God? I put my faith in the Word of God not the writings of man. It really doesn't matter what they believed. What matters is what God says.__________________
DHK

Apparently you don't believe the early church fathers did. I have always believed in a Spiritual Millenium before I knew the early church did also. Seems to me you all are the ones who has the problem explaining a literal Kingdom when God is Spiritual and seek such to worship Him in Spirit and you want it to be The Lord to reign in a earthly Kingdom? Well you got a lot of company, so does the Jews.

What about Schaff's History, do you believe in his's history, you or Elijahu?

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Fair enough!

70AD to 100 AD range.

The Apostle John.

Rev 20 speaks specifically of the 1000 years.

That would be "one".:thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

Now prove its literal!! How about you Bob Ryan, do you have any confidence in Schaff's History?

I do not believe in an earthly millennium but I believe in a REAL literal 1000 year millennium between the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20 that is part of the 2nd coming event and the second resurrection where you have the great white throne judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

Are you saying the millennium will be in Heaven Bob? Sounds like you are closer than they are.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes - the 1000 years are literal. The wicked are slain and as scripture states "I looked and behold there was no man" speaking of the destroyed earth after the 2nd coming.

Wicked slain.

Saints raptured.

Literal 1000 years between the first and 2nd resurrection.

First resurrection literally taking place Rev 20 after the literal 2nd coming of Rev 19.


Rev 19 literal Christ, Literal wicked, Literal death of the wicked, literal armies of heaven, literal church.

Rev 20 - Literal Christ, Literal saints, literal resurrection , literal lake of fire, literal white throne judgment, literal 1000 years, literally 2 resurrections.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

All that "ceases" at death gives us a "clue" as to why God calls this dormant state "sleep"

Hint: This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

Your definition of death is wrong.
Death is separation. James 2:26—The body without the spirit is dead.
What ceases at death. Only the body “ceases” or starts to decay and that is all.
God is the God of the living, and that is precisely why the spirits of the saints of the those that have died are in heaven. They are not the dead. Man indeed is immortal. He is a spirit being temporarily clothed with a temporal body for a finite period of time. But the spirit lives on forever and ever without cessation. It is eternal. It never sleeps.

The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

This is a false statement which many cults teach. It has no foundation in fact.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Bob, It is an immortal spirit that puts on an immortal body. The immortal body is not hollow, without spirit or soul. The spirit is immortal; it lives forever, and now those that are dead await the resurrection to be clothed with their immortal bodies. But their spirits are very much alive and immortal.

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

More than any other verse this Scripture defeats your position. God is not the God of the dead; not the God of those that sleep; not the God of the annihilated; nor the God of anyone else but those that are alive in Christ, exactly as He teaches.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.
--Why are you contradicting the very Scripture that you quote? Praise continues for all eternity. That is what the verse says. You can’t read? In verse 17 the Psalmist simply refers to the body; in verse 18 he refers to the spirit.

Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 –

Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
--Rhetorical questions that need no answer, asked somewhat in sarcasm. Are you unable to recognize figures of speech when they are used?

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
--It is evident that “bodies” in the grave and decaying into compost do not praise God. Is that hard to understand? It doesn’t speak of the soul or spirit which lives on forever and is immortal.
--The living (the spirit of the body) praises God—forever—as Isaiah does to that day.

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
As the verse says decaying bodies in cemeteries do not give thanks nor remember God. Why do you shut your eyes to the Bible Bob, and make up things as you go along? The Bible is quite clear and yet you choose to make up your own doctrine. It speaks of the body; not the spirit.

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

--Verse 4—His spirit departs. It is immortal and will go either to heaven or hell. However his body will go to the grave and of course the thoughts of a dead corpse perish. Why do you ignore the obvious when it is right before your eyes?

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
--When you understand the context that these verses were written in then quote them. Otherwise you have taken them completely out of context and given them a meaning which is totally absurd. Any thinking person can see past that.

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

The spirit is immortal; it departs and goes either to heaven or hell.
The body goes to the earth. Obviously the thoughts of a body perish. The psalmist remembers a man by what he sees—the body, and thus mentions “thoughts” in that context. He will never hear them again.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

The same old thing; the same old thing.
The spirit is immortal and lives on either in hell or in heaven.
The body is buried and decays.
A father remembers a man by the person that he has seen in life, and the faithfulness that the man was to him in life, not in death. Such simple obvious truths escape you, and you invent a man-made religion or accept one, instead.

Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

As I said before - these kinds of texts may not be very popular - but we all have read them and I for one can not ignore them.

They all prove the opposite of what you try to demonstrate.
But most of all they prove how well you attempt to take Scripture out of its context!!

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

DHK
This is a false statement which many cults teach. It has no foundation in fact.

And yet you come up with ZERO Bible texts after making that wild claim?? DHK - how could you?

DHK

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clearly showing that we ARE mortal UNTIL that 1Cor 15 future RESURRECTION at the coming of Christ when THIS MORTAL puts on immortality.

DHK
Bob, It is an immortal spirit that puts on an immortal body.

Interesting claim - what text do you have for that?

None?

DHK. The spirit is immortal; it lives forever,

Text please.

and now those that are dead await the resurrection to be clothed with their immortal bodies.

Those who sleep await the resurrection to receive immortal eternal bodies according to 1Cor 15 -- but I thought you wanted the immortal eternal bodies handed out at DEATH not at resurrection according to your view of 2Cor 5:1-3.

What happened?

But their spirits are very much alive and immortal.

Text please.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Don't want to steal this thread so this last post on thousand, but I wonder why when they knew the number was exact they used "chilias" #5505, but when they didn't know the exact they used "chilioi" #5507, in the book of Revelation???

Anyone?

Rev 11:3--"thousand" Greek "chilioi" #5507--plural. of uncertian. affinity.; a thousand, thousand
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Rev 11:13--"thousand" Greek "chilias" #5505--one thousand (chiliad) thousand
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Rev 12:6--"thousand" Greek "chilioi" #5507--plur. of uncert. affin.; a thousand, thousand
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Rev 14:1,3--"thousand" Greek "chilias" #5505--one thousand (chiliad) thousand
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Rev 14:20-"thousand" Greek "chilioi" #5507--plur. of uncert. affin.; a thousand, thousand
20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs

Rev 20:3,4,5,6,7--"thousand" "chilioi" #5507--plur. of uncert. affin.; a thousand, thousand
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Rev 21:16----"thousand" Greek "chilias" #5505--one thousand (chiliad) thousand
16] And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

 

[Andre]

Hello TCGreek:

I posted the following in respect to James 2:26 and argued that the text in question does not require us to believe that the spirit is a specifically consciousness-bearing quantity:

The interpretation of James 2:26 as supporting the notion that death = separation of a conscious soul / spirit from the body is an example of an interpretation that illicitly assumes the very thing the text is being used to support.

Here is how this works in the case of James 2:26:

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

All this text can legitimately be used to conclude is this: that the body without the spirit is dead. It says nothing about whether or not the spirit bears the property of consciousness. If you are going to argue that this is a necessary implication, please consider the following analogy. A light bulb without electricity flowing through it is dead in the sense of not giving light. This, of course, does not mean that the "light" is carried as property of either the light bulb or the electricity.

So there is no logical necessity that a "spirit" bears consciousness. All we know from the James text is that without a spirit, the body is dead.

You responded with

"The body without the spirit is dead." That statement works quite well for me. No theologizing is needed.

This is not a counterargument to my position in any sense. If it is clear that James 2:26 rules out the possibility that the spirit does not carry consciousness, you should be able to deconstruct my argument. As part of your strategy, I invite you to provide other texts that show that the spirit is a consciousness bearing thing. Or you can make a case that logical necessity requires that if the body and spirit can be disentangled (which I agree that James 2:26 indeed states) then the spirit has to carry consciousness.

Either way, you are not responding to what I think is a clear plausibility argument that the spirit need not bear consciousness.

To further strengthen this plausibility case, consider the property of "saltiness" that is borne by common salt - sodium chloride. If we start with a bucket of sodium and a bucket of chlorine, neither of them bears this property. The property of "saltiness" only emerges when they are combined.

The fact that salt can be broken down into sodium and chlorine does indeed justify the following statement roughly analogous to James 2:26:

"Sodium without chlorine (or chlorine without sodium) is dead in respect to saltiness."

However, we are not justified in concluding either that:

Sodium bears the property of saltiness; or
Chlorine bears the property of saltiness

So please do not simply dismiss an argument that works against your position. If your view is correct, then my argument must be subject to being shown as wrong - either by attacking its content or bringing other information to bear that confirms that the "spirit" bears consciousness.

 

[Andre]

Your definition of death is wrong.
Death is separation. James 2:26—The body without the spirit is dead.

Like TCGreek, you seem to assume that the consciousness of the person is borne by the spirit. I see no scriptural evidence for this, but there must be some if your position is correct, so please provide it. It is entirely possible that a human being indeed has a "spirit" that survives the death of the body and yet that spirit is not a consciousness bearing quantity.

 

[DHK]

Like TCGreek, you seem to assume that the consciousness of the person is borne by the spirit. I see no scriptural evidence for this, but there must be some if your position is correct, so please provide it. It is entirely possible that a human being indeed has a "spirit" that survives the death of the body and yet that spirit is not a consciousness bearing quantity.

The verse is clear. Belief is an obvious problem. Grammatical construction is clear. I went over that in detail. Simply put:

The body....is dead. How is it dead? Without the spirit. It isn't the spirit that is dead. The body is dead without the spirit.
The body is the subject, a noun.
The verb (to be) is "is."
"Dead" is a predicate nominative.
and "without the spirit" is a prepositional phrase" acting as an adjective which defines the subject.
Thus the body when it is separated from the spirit (without the spirit) is dead. It says nothing about the spirit being dead for it is not. It is separated from the body. The right and only conclusion that James is teaching is that: death is separation.
The spirit is still alive; only separted from the dead. You need to learn what a proper definition of death is. Death is separatioin--the separation of the spirit from the body.