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When were the saved regenerated by God?

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Reformed

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Old School Baptists (see 'Old Schoolism') held to this by reason of sound biblical deduction such as John the Baptist filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, David made to hope while on his mother's breast, Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning, Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach Christ among the Gentiles, and other scripture that quite plainly indicates a heart circumcised long before conversion.

That is why I used the term "mostly".

I would not use the extraordinary work of the Holy Spirit to build the doctrine of a lengthy period of regeneration before justification. Balaam's donkey spoke by the work of God, but we would not think of considering that normative.

The examples you cited I would explain as God separating individuals for His purpose. I don't see where the salvific work of regeneration can be separated from saving faith and justification for any length of time.
 

kyredneck

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That is why I used the term "mostly".

I would not use the extraordinary work of the Holy Spirit to build the doctrine of a lengthy period of regeneration before justification.

Abraham? Cornelius? Nathaniel? Jn 3:21?

The examples you cited I would explain as God separating individuals for His purpose. I don't see where the salvific work of regeneration can be separated from saving faith and justification for any length of time.

Yeah I know, for some reason you're convinced it can't be more than a nanosecond.
 

Yeshua1

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Abraham? Cornelius? Nathaniel? Jn 3:21?



Yeah I know, for some reason you're convinced it can't be more than a nanosecond.

How can God regenerate a new heart and grant them new life in Chrsit without them having received Christ yet though?
 

Yeshua1

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That is why I used the term "mostly".

I would not use the extraordinary work of the Holy Spirit to build the doctrine of a lengthy period of regeneration before justification. Balaam's donkey spoke by the work of God, but we would not think of considering that normative.

The examples you cited I would explain as God separating individuals for His purpose. I don't see where the salvific work of regeneration can be separated from saving faith and justification for any length of time.

You can cherry pick the examples of John/Jesus and some of the prophets in the Bible, but those were "special cases", and not meant to be the normitive way that God functions in salvation!

And all of those "special cases" were still under the old covenant, correct?

NONE of that happened after the new Covenant was established, correct?
 

kyredneck

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You can cherry pick the examples of John/Jesus and some of the prophets in the Bible, but those were "special cases", and not meant to be the normitive way that God functions in salvation!

Wow, 'special cases' eh? Your relentless unbiblical denial of the power of God in regeneration will take you so far to as to close off these wonderful examples given to us for our learning?

Never mind "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise", or, "Now these things were our examples", or, "set forth as an example"; the great Yeshua1 has spoken and deemed them all to be 'special cases' that in no way apply to us.

Man, you are a trip.

Lol, I know I'm wasting my time here, but you got any scripture that shows these to be 'special cases' and not applicable as examples to us?
 
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kyredneck

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Under your monikers of JesusFan/DeChaser1/Yeshua1, how many threads on this same exact topic have you generated over the years?

I bet there's at least twenty of them.
 

Reformed

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Abraham? Cornelius? Nathaniel? Jn 3:21?



Yeah I know, for some reason you're convinced it can't be more than a nanosecond.

The problem we have here is understanding what regeneration is. In relation to salvation the word means to be reborn or made new. You wonder why I'm convinced it can't be more than a nanosecond? Because the overwhelming evidence of scripture supports such a view.

Acts 10 starts off by introducing Cornelius, "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household" (Acts 10:2). Nowhere in the Cornelius narrative do we read that Cornelius was not already saved. Acts 10 teaches us that the Gospel was not be preached only to the circumcision, but also the Gentiles (vs. 34-35). In other words Cornelius, and those in his household, were being acquainted with message of Jesus Christ. Cornelius was saved much in the same way that Old Testament saints were saved; by faith in God according to the knowledge they possessed of the scriptures at the time.

In John 3:21 our Lord is not referring to regeneration. I understand why you would think it does. You believe those who come to the light only do so because they have been regenerated. In a larger context I simply see a contrast between those whose deeds are evil and those whose deeds are good. Eph. 2:10 states that Christians were created for good works. Jas. 2:18 says that some will show their faith by their works. In Mat. 5:16* Jesus states that we are to let our light shine before men so they may see our good works and glorify our God who is in heaven. These passages are not directed at those who have been regenerated but not justified.

Abraham was called to go to go possess a land and father a nation. We eventually read that he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:3). Are we to assume that Abraham was regenerated before he finally believed God? I just don't see that in the text. I do see that he believed God and he was made righteous. That is when his regeneration took place.

Jesus' proclamation to Nathanael in John 1 is bit more complex and has roots in the Old Testament understanding of Israel's purpose and her eventual corruption. But just at face value, here again we may have an individual who believed in God to the degree in which God was revealed through the Old Testament scriptures. I believe it is a stretch to read pre-justification regeneration into this passage.

Finally, I have no problem with you and I disagreeing over this issue. There are very good Reformed friends of mine that believe the way you do. We agree on so much more and have wonderful fellowship together. I write this so you don't think I am getting snarky with you. I have an obligation to my own conscience to state the truth as I see it. I would like to think that my fellow Christians share the same conviction and can extend charity to each other when we disagree, even if our debate can get somewhat vigorous.

*In Mat. 5:16 Jesus is addressing the nation of Israel. His comments are not directly solely to believers at this time, but to what Israel as a nation is supposed to do (c.f. Isa. 42:6; Luke 2:32).
 
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Iconoclast

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Reformed;

First, I believe repentance does proceed saving faith and justification. But I also believe that the person who is in the process of the ordo salutis is no longer ungodly once he has been regenerated. Prior to their justification the Elect have been wayward sheep (John 10:16). As sheep they have always been part of the flock of the Shepherd. The problem is that, as wayward sheep, they are not with the flock. Would we refer to such individuals as ungodly? Absolutely. They are ungodly because their call has not yet been accomplished in time. They are still in their sins. When God's timetable for bringing a member of this wayward flock comes to pass, the process of the ordo salutis is nearly instantaneous. The Holy Spirit doesn't regenerate the person, take a five month hiatus, and then return to finish the process. Once the Holy Spirit moves upon the immaterial part of man the entire process is accomplished. As I pointed to in my previous post, God is a God of order. For that reason I believe there is a logical sequence in the ordo salutis. The reason I do not believe the person being brought to faith in Christ is in some ungodly limbo between regeneration and justification is because a) they are sheep b) regeneration has already changed them. Justification is the legal declaration whereby they are pronounced righteous. I don't want to say that justification is the by-product of regeneration. That would improperly downplay justifications's significance. But it is at the point of regeneration that the sinner is made new. This is the historic Reformed view.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for this helpful post REFORMED:applause: it sounds like a section I read today from Redemption ,Accomplished and Applied, by J.Murray,pg 103

Regeneration is the beginning of all saving grace in us, and all saving grace in exercise on our part proceeds from the fountain of regeneration.

We are not born again by faith or repentance or conversion: we repent and believe because we have been regenerated.

No one can say in truth that Jesus is the Christ except by regeneration of the Spirit and that is one of the ways by which the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ.

The embrace of Christ in faith is the first evidence of regeneration and only thus may we know that we have been regenerated.


The priority 0f regeneration might create the impression that a person could be regenerated and not yet converted. These passages in 1 jn should correct any such misapprehension....1 jn 3:9,5:4,5:18

When put together these texts expressly state that every regenerate person has been delivered from the power of sin, overcomes the world by the faith of Christ, and exercises that self control by which he is no longer the slave of sin and of the evil one.
 

Yeshua1

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The problem we have here is understanding what regeneration is. In relation to salvation the word means to be reborn or made new. You wonder why I'm convinced it can't be more than a nanosecond? Because the overwhelming evidence of scripture supports such a view.

Acts 10 starts off by introducing Cornelius, "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household" (Acts 10:2). Nowhere in the Cornelius narrative do we read that Cornelius was not already saved. Acts 10 teaches us that the Gospel was not be preached only to the circumcision, but also the Gentiles (vs. 34-35). In other words Cornelius, and those in his household, were being acquainted with message of Jesus Christ. Cornelius was saved much in the same way that Old Testament saints were saved; by faith in God according to the knowledge they possessed of the scriptures at the time.

In John 3:21 our Lord is not referring to regeneration. I understand why you would think it does. You believe those who come to the light only do so because they have been regenerated. In a larger context I simply see a contrast between those whose deeds are evil and those whose deeds are good. Eph. 2:10 states that Christians were created for good works. Jas. 2:18 says that some will show their faith by their works. In Mat. 5:16* Jesus states that we are to let our light shine before men so they may see our good works and glorify our God who is in heaven. These passages are not directed at those who have been regenerated but not justified.

Abraham was called to go to go possess a land and father a nation. We eventually read that he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:3). Are we to assume that Abraham was regenerated before he finally believed God? I just don't see that in the text. I do see that he believed God and he was made righteous. That is when his regeneration took place.

Jesus' proclamation to Nathanael in John 1 is bit more complex and has roots in the Old Testament understanding of Israel's purpose and her eventual corruption. But just at face value, here again we may have an individual who believed in God to the degree in which God was revealed through the Old Testament scriptures. I believe it is a stretch to read pre-justification regeneration into this passage.

Finally, I have no problem with you and I disagreeing over this issue. There are very good Reformed friends of mine that believe the way you do. We agree on so much more and have wonderful fellowship together. I write this so you don't think I am getting snarky with you. I have an obligation to my own conscience to state the truth as I see it. I would like to think that my fellow Christians share the same conviction and can extend charity to each other when we disagree, even if our debate can get somewhat vigorous.

*In Mat. 5:16 Jesus is addressing the nation of Israel. His comments are not directly solely to believers at this time, but to what Israel as a nation is supposed to do (c.f. Isa. 42:6; Luke 2:32).

was Cornelius a saved person, with a God given new heart/life in christ before he hesard the Gospel from peter?

Think pretty obvious that he became a christian when the Spirit fell upon him, at the preaching of jesus by peter!
 

Yeshua1

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Wow, 'special cases' eh? Your relentless unbiblical denial of the power of God in regeneration will take you so far to as to close off these wonderful examples given to us for our learning?

Never mind "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise", or, "Now these things were our examples", or, "set forth as an example"; the great Yeshua1 has spoken and deemed them all to be 'special cases' that in no way apply to us.

Man, you are a trip.

Lol, I know I'm wasting my time here, but you got any scripture that shows these to be 'special cases' and not applicable as examples to us?

can aperson AFTER Acsension of jesus and the day pf pentacost be given to us as an example of there being a long lagging between regenration and being 'saved?"
 

Reformed

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was Cornelius a saved person, with a God given new heart/life in christ before he hesard the Gospel from peter?

Think pretty obvious that he became a christian when the Spirit fell upon him, at the preaching of jesus by peter!
Show me where in Acts 10 it says that Cornelius believed after Peter preached? What was the purpose behind Peter's sermon? What is Acts 10 about? Tell me.
 

Yeshua1

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Show me where in Acts 10 it says that Cornelius believed after Peter preached? What was the purpose behind Peter's sermon? What is Acts 10 about? Tell me.

God sent him to meet peter in order to hear the Gospel message and to become converted/saved by that message, as the Spirit fell upon and in them when they received and believed unto the jesus of peter!

Until that actually happened, was a devout/pious lost person!
 

Reformed

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God sent him to meet peter in order to hear the Gospel message and to become converted/saved by that message, as the Spirit fell upon and in them when they received and believed unto the jesus of peter!

Until that actually happened, was a devout/pious lost person!
You didn't answer my question.
 
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