When were we Chosen?

[JonC]

If God choses people for salvation based on what they do… that is a works based salvation.

Not what they do.

Repentance and belief is not something people do, for example. But it certainly affects what people do.

If you believe an airplane will arrive at its destination safely that is not doing anything. But that belief may result in you getting on the plane.


In Scripture "works" refer to the works of the Law as opposed to "faith".

 

[Van]

If God choses people for salvation based on what they do… that is a works based salvation.

If God choses specific people for salvation according to His purpose and His will (which is the biblical truth) and then so works in their lives to free them from their slavery to sin thereby allowing them to respond to the truth of Jesus Christ (Who He is and what He has done) with faith…. You have Grace.

Peace to you

Thanks for offering a "Calvinist" defense of your mistaken view individuals were chosen for salvation before creation.

First a denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 claiming we were not chosen through faith, but misrepresenting it as being chosen "because" of our faith.

Second a denial of Romans 5:1-2 where our faith provides "access" to God's saving grace. This is the actual biblical gospel, not a made up one from the dark ages.

No mention we were chosen while consider poor by fallen humanity, James 2:5
No mention we were chosen while heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5
No mention God is continuing to be reconciling the lost to Himself.

I could go on and on but to no avail as no Calvinist can admit to the truth of scripture when it contradicts their man-made doctrine.

 

[Paleouss]

So, trying to be diligent in rightly dividing the word of truth, I thought I would add more lines of evidence, hoping there are some who browse this forum with open minds.

Greetings Van. Thank you for your witness and work you do for our Lord.

I see and understand your lines of reasoning. Since I understand what you are saying, I don't think I need any clarification. I do have a question that does pertain to the topic in general.

My question is how do you interpret, or how does the corporate view address, the verses I will present, or how are they applied to the corporate view? Since I don't practice the tactic of "ignoring verses that don't line up with a theological position". I always try and reconcile all verses.

P.S. I'm not trying to sidetrack your post. So if you think it does then ignore this post.

I'll put these quotes in an order that would suggest a "before the world began" theology.


At least one person's life would seem to have been planned step by step before his creation.

(Psa 139:14-17 NKJV) 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And [that] my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, [And] skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When [as yet there were] none of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!

Names NOT written in the book of life before the foundation of the world

(Rev 17:8 NKJV) 8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(Rev 13:8 NKJV) 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Names ARE written in the Lamb's book of life

(Rev 21:27 NKJV) 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Now I can see how Rev 21:27 can be incorporated into the corporate view. However, if I take Revelation 21:27 along with Revelation 17:8 & 13:8...the waters seem to muddy a little more.

So what do you think?

Peace to you brother

 

[JD731]

1 Cor 1 :1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here are the three types of calling in the scriptures.

Saved people are sanctified at the event when they are put in the family, body, church of Jesus Christ upon their personal conversion through faith in him to save them. This sanctification is first and it is God setting us apart in his eyes from the world the moment we are saved. But notice the order in the text, after this we are called to be saints. Personally I think one would do no damage to the doctrine by saying we are called to be saintly. We have a will and a corrupt body yet and we are to govern ourselves in word and deed in a way that our walk from this point onward matches our standing as a son in the body. It is a high calling. We all have varying success at this. The call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord is the call to repent and to trust in his finished work for salvation. The third calling is occupational or vocationally. Paul was called to be an apostle but Sosthenes was not though he labored with Paul. Sosthenes had a different calling in the body but not a separate calling. All the parts of the body must function in rhythm.


This chapter deals further with this idea if you care to study it. Believing the words and considering the context will produce sanctification and understanding among the saints.

Called to be saved
Called to be saints
Called to serve

 

[Van]

Greetings Van. SNIP

I'll put these quotes in an order that would suggest a "before the world began" theology.
Psa 139:14-17 NKJV) 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And [that] my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, [And] skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When [as yet there were] none of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!

At least one person's life would seem to have been planned step by step before his creation.

Names NOT written in the book of life before the foundation of the world
(Rev 17:8 NKJV) 8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



Names ARE written in the Lamb's book of life


Rev 21:27 NASB
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Now I can see how Rev 21:27 can be incorporated into the corporate view. However, if I take Revelation 21:27 along with Revelation 17:8 & 13:8...the waters seem to muddy a little more.

So what do you think?

Peace to you brother

Thanks for the post and I believe it is totally on topic.

1) Psalms1329:14-17 says God knew David from when He was secretly made, thus from conception not before creation. Substance unformed refers to the fertilized egg, David with his human spirit providing life to his unformed body. This is not to say God cannot or could not formulate a detailed plan for anyone before creation, but just that no verse or passage says He did. Certainly this passage does not support individual election before creation. That view must be read into the passage.

2) Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 both says names were not written, and therefore other names were presumably written, in the Lamb's book of life "FROM" the foundation of the world. Yes I know some people claim the Greek word "apo" can be used to mean before but that claim is absolutely false. You cannot be out from something before the something existed. So the names found written in the Lamb's book of life were written from the creation, not before the creation. And this period to time stretches from the creation to the end of the age, thus names are being written in the Lamb's book in the here and now. See Luke 11:50 to see where from or since the foundation is used to refer to time long after the creation week.

3) You referred to the "Corporate View." Which of course is NOT my view, as I said more than a dozen times our INDIVIDUAL ELECTION FOR SALVATION." My understanding of the Corporate View is that it is a bogus as a three dollar bill. Here, from the internet, is the view you might be referring to:

​

The"corporate view" of election is a theological perspective that understands God's choice for salvation as primarily applying to a group of people (the church), rather than a selection of specific individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world." ​

My view, well supported by specific scripture is Ephesians 1:4 refers to God individually electing Christ as His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, and therefore when God chose Him as Redeemer, He also chose us corporately as those His Redeemer might redeem, those to be chosen individually through faith in the truth. As you may know, a group chosen for a common attribute is a corporate choice. Here the plan includes the target group for redemption, those whose faith God credits as righteousness, thus "He chose us corporately [those believers who had been chosen] in Him [when Christ was chosen as Redeemer] before the foundation of the world. But He chose us individually when He set us apart in Christ based on crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

1 Cor 1 :1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here are the three types of calling in the scriptures.

Saved people are sanctified at the event when they are put in the family, body, church of Jesus Christ upon their personal conversion through faith in him to save them. This sanctification is first and it is God setting us apart in his eyes from the world the moment we are saved. But notice the order in the text, after this we are called to be saints. Personally I think one would do no damage to the doctrine by saying we are called to be saintly. We have a will and a corrupt body yet and we are to govern ourselves in word and deed in a way that our walk from this point onward matches our standing as a son in the body. It is a high calling. We all have varying success at this. The call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord is the call to repent and to trust in his finished work for salvation. The third calling is occupational or vocationally. Paul was called to be an apostle but Sosthenes was not though he labored with Paul. Sosthenes had a different calling in the body but not a separate calling. All the parts of the body must function in rhythm.


This chapter deals further with this idea if you care to study it. Believing the words and considering the context will produce sanctification and understanding among the saints.

Called to be saved
Called to be saints
Called to serve

Salvation has three aspects:
1) Positional Sanctification where God puts a lost individual into Christ, setting him or her apart "in Christ."

2) Progressive Sanctification, where we as born anew believer, indwelt with the Holy Spirit live our our physical lifetime growing more "Christ-like" and serving Christ as His ambassadors, spreading His gospel to the ends of the earth.

3) Ultimate Sanctification, where we are bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming.

The three aspects set us free from (1) the penalty of sin in positional sanctification, (2) the power of sin over us in progressive sanctification, and (3) the presence of sin in our glorified bodies with our ultimate sanctification.

 

[th1bill]

There are at least two views as to when God chooses individuals for salvation. The first view is that God choose everyone to be saved before creation based on an interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, which says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The second view, is that God is choosing individuals for salvation in the here and now and will continue to do so until the end of the age of grace.

As many of you know, I have provided two lines of evidence in support of the second view. Yet not one poster has ever replied, Yes, I agree the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, and our individual elections for salvation must still be occurring.

So, trying to be diligent in rightly dividing the word of truth, I thought I would add more lines of evidence, hoping there are some who browse this forum with open minds.

1) As many of you know, 2 Corinthians 5:19 says God "was" reconciling the world to Himself. This verb, translated "was" is in the Greek an imperfect active indicative, which describes continuous, ongoing, or repeated past actions. Thus God has been and is continuing to be reconciling is the truth carefully hidden by poor translations which present the action as past, and omitting the continuing nature of the indicated action. Some might say, yes but God could have chosen them in the past, before creation, but only reconciled them in the present. This is consistent with receiving the reconciliation during our physical lifetime, and with our mission as Ambassadors of Christ to beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Unfortunately not one poster has posted, "Yes, I agree God is reconciling those chosen in the here and now rather than when Christ sacrificed His life."

2) James 2:5 indicates God choose individuals who were poor "of the world...." Here the word translated "of the world" is in the Greek a dative noun, indicating the location where they were poor. Thus we were chosen while viewed as poor by humanity, which requires they were part of human culture, again requiring that they were chosen while existing as humans. So we were both chosen and reconciled while physically alive.

3) The last line of evidence uses both Romans 4:24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus we had faith at the time of being chosen for salvation. Not one Calvinist has ever agreed with this truth. However, there is more, Romans 4:24 says "faith" (the antecedent of the pronoun translated as "it) will be (present tense, in the here and now) to those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Thus the faith used in our individual election for salvation was credited in the here and now, making our election in the here and now, during our physical lifetime.

4) Just as a reminder, 1 Peter 2:9-10 says were once existed as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession, and once had not received mercy. Therefore we could not have been individually chosen before we existed.

Your narrative fails on the grounds of exclusion. Yehovah God created this Time/Space Continuum, Gen, 1-3, and therefore is not contained with us. Just the Omnipotence of Yehovah indicates power we fail to understand.

 

[kyredneck]

when God chooses individuals for salvation

Romans Chapter 9 -

11​	for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

Galatians Chapter 1

15​	But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,

Ephesians Chapter 1

4​	even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

 

[JD731]

Salvation has three aspects:
1) Positional Sanctification where God puts a lost individual into Christ, setting him or her apart "in Christ."

2) Progressive Sanctification, where we as born anew believer, indwelt with the Holy Spirit live our our physical lifetime growing more "Christ-like" and serving Christ as His ambassadors, spreading His gospel to the ends of the earth.

3) Ultimate Sanctification, where we are bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming.

The three aspects set us free from (1) the penalty of sin in positional sanctification, (2) the power of sin over us in progressive sanctification, and (3) the presence of sin in our glorified bodies with our ultimate sanctification.

I would say practically the same thing except I might name the formula as Past, Present, and Future. We have been saved, elected, chosen, redeemed, birthed or any other compatible term that defines a sinner passing from death to life when he believes the gospel of Christ, having heard it or otherwise become familiar with it. When you are speaking to a saved person, his salvation from the penalty of sin is in the past as far back as the cross but not before it.

Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (the Spirit who is life) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The present tense salvation is his progressive sanctification in fulfilling his calling and is present tense since it is an ongoing endeavor (we see through a glass darkly). Finally, it is future tense since we will finally arrive at his predestined purpose of making us exactly in the image of his son with a glorified body that shines as his does and can appear in the presence of God.

Php 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

A glorified body is all saved people lack for instant and complete sanctification and it is the meaning of predestination.

The scripture lays out this three-fold formula, past, present, and future, in doctrine easily discoverable for the seeker of truth. To teach that our predestined glory is before the cross rather than after it, as do our Calvinist friends, is like putting the cart before the horse and is disastrous for sound doctrine.