When will the liars apologize?

Barbarian observes:
Yes, we do. We are to be obedient to our laws, which are the supreme authority in America. Those laws permit, even encourage criticism of our elected leaders. Biblicly, we are straying when we try to suppress dissent.

Sorry. The fouinders made the Constitution Supreme in American government. While they worshipped God, they left no place for Him in governance. Don't like it? There are still a few theocracies arouind, although you might not like them very much, either.

Barbarian observes:
Officeholders in a free nation are subject to criticism from citizens. If you find that offensive, there are no laws preventing you from finding a nation that suits you better.


[quiote]This is a common statement from you.[/quote]

No kidding. Those who argue that the president is above criticism aren't numerous, but they are persistant.


Barbarian observes:
Characterizing criticism of the government as hate speech is contrary to the truth, and is certainly not characteristic of our Lord and Savior. Stop hiding behind the Bible. It is highly disrespectful to try to force God to serve your political ideas.

Yep. That's what I'm doing. It outrages you, because you have made an idol of Bush and Co.

In fact, I have given Bush credit for his work as governor of Texas, and for his sensible diplomacy with India, as well as for his handling of the fighting in Lebanon. You are so filled with hatred for anyone who disagrees with you about Bush, even occasionally, that you made up the rest of that attack to justify your behavior. As you know, I've been considerably more even-handed than you have been in this. You'll never admit it, of course, but you know.

(Barbarian on the notion that "dissent" is an idol)

A lot more common, perhaps than worshipping at the altar of the White House, but apparently we still have a few idolators of that stripe.

Yep. Sometimes parody is the best tool to deal with loony accusations. It was in this case.

 

You expose yourself by denying Gods soveriegnty over Government in light of the scripture I posted. You expose yourself with your love of a godless government which is against God.

There are a few who want to jump to the idea of a theocracy if God reigns soveriegn over the government. You fear man and you fear authority. These are not characteristic of submission to God.

When we fear God we fear no one else, when we do not fear God we fear everyone else. A government that excludes God is an enemy of God. You love that which is an enemy of God.

And I see you failed to pull up any scripture to support your type of dissent. You say it is biblical then provide the scripture.

 

David feared God, yet he also feared Saul...

 

He could have taken Sauls' life but did not. Why was that?

 

I've had to stop reading some of these posts. They make my head hurt.

Tim Reynolds

 

I didn't say you did.

 

Right - what did you say? Better yet, what did you mean?

 

Then you're living in the wrong country, because the Constitution is supreme. If you doubt this go go court and cite a Bible verse as precedent.

More fantasy, um? If you would pay attention to what people write, instead of imagining what they think, you'd have noticed that I think the government is the problem.

[quoteThere are a few who want to jump to the idea of a theocracy if God reigns soveriegn over the government. [/quote]

I'd love to live in a theocracy. But we'll get it only when God choses to give it to us. In the meantime, those who propose to govern in His name are neither Christian nor trustworthy.

Like the Founders, I fear anyone who wants to gather power. My position is that anyone who wants power should be kept from having it. Since that's not practical, we should limit it severely, and set checks and balances on it.

And every now and then, we should trim it back, just on principle.

It's my refusal to submit to those playing God that angers you.

If you think so, I'm sure you can find a country more to your liking.

You get mean and sladerous when you're upset, um?



And I see you failed to pull up any scripture to support your type of dissent. You say it is biblical then provide the scripture.

 

There is nothing said on this board that upsets me, and I have never been "sladerous" a day in my life.

 

Reading this board is like reading George Orwell's "1984". Double speak is rampant. People start a thread that in its title calls people liars, then say they never called anyone a liar. Then someone is slandered, and the slanderer denies doing so. Truly amazing!

 

And it is my opinion that many on here don't care. How can Christians differ so greatly on political ideologies? I don't see that they can.

 

Sure, we can. The Bible is not a handbook on political ideology and how intrusive the government should be in our lives.

The Bible is about something a whole lot more important - salvation from our sins.

 

And how intrusive God will (or can) be even if we ignore Him . . .

 

I commend Pastor Larry for his indulgence and perseverance against impossibly vacuous reasoning. I also admire his integrity, so obviously related to his walk with Christ.

 

Why not. Christians cannot even agree on theological meaning of scriptures, much less politics. And Ken is dead on with his comments above as well.

 

Revmitchell loses his temper and tries a little slander:

Barbarian observes:
You get mean and sla(n)derous when you're upset, um?

I see your denial. But your behavior is not of one who is calmly responding to disagreement. Shame on you for so blatantly misrepresenting what I believe. As I said, government is the problem, and we need to closely watch and limit those who have power.

Well, I am somewhat dyslexic. Feel free to mock and attack me for that.

At least it's not a false accusation.

Nor is it a false observation to note that you have falsely accused me of opinions I do not hold.

 

In this statement you denied my assertion that God is soveriegn even in America. Then of course you have not been able to support your statement that : "Biblically we are straying when we try to supress dissent."

Which of course no one has done. Every time I bring up the fact that God needs to be involved in government and in our decisions in governemnt because a government without God is a government against God, you refuse to accept the idea that God be involved in government. You have made it clear that you do not want God involved in government. Therefore you want what is against God. This is not slander it is fact based on your own statements.

And again. You asserted that your version of dissent is biblically based. Where do you find that in scripture?

 

Barbarian observes:
Yes, we do. We are to be obedient to our laws, which are the supreme authority in America. Those laws permit, even encourage criticism of our elected leaders. Biblicly, we are straying when we try to suppress dissent.

The Constitution is soveriegn in America. By law. We are, as citizens, to obey it. Our leaders are not rulers, but servants. If we are good Christians, we will take the responsibility of guiding and criticising them when they are wrong.

Are you now arguing that we are not told in the Bible to be obedient to our rulers? If so, then we have violated the Bible if we attempt to suppress dissent which the law permits and encourages.

Neither does God. He is very clear about that. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. If you study the Bible, you will find that Jesus wasn't really talking about whose money it was. His enemies were trying to draw him into a trap, to get Him to say that it was not right to submit to the Roman authorities. Instead, as when Pilate questioned Him, He said "My kingdom is not of this world."

This completely puzzled Pilate, who like you, was unable to picture God as apart from government.

Any attempt to establish God in government, as the Founders pointed out, was not Christian, and leads to evil. God neither wants nor needs government support.

Pilate would think so. But Jesus knows better.

It is slander. As noted before, I have repeatedly posted that government naturally tends to evil if unchecked, and needs to be held in check, and yet you falsely accused...

There's no point in trying to deny it.

Let's go with what I actually wrote:

Those laws permit, even encourage criticism of our elected leaders. Biblicly, we are straying when we try to suppress dissent.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

The Constitution is the law of the land, which rules over us. Anyone who suppresses dissent is not being submissive to the Constitution, and is thereby also contrary to God's will.