When will the Rapture/Resurrection occur?

[Darrell C]

That there are still twelve tribes shows that 'all Israel will be saved.'

Again, not relevant to Revelation 7, for a couple of reasons.

First, we are still in the midst of the Tribulation (at this point in Revelation), and not all who will be saved can be assumed to be saved yet.

Secondly, and more importantly, the passage you quote makes it clear that God will one day fulfill His promise of bringing Israel into relationship with Himself through the New Covenant on a National basis:


Romans 11:25-29
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


There is a time, Paul states, when the fullness of the Gentiles will come in. That is future.

"All Israel will be saved" because only those who believe will survive.

All unbelievers are destroyed when Christ returns.

I think we see the time of the Sheep and Goat judgment given in Daniel:


Daniel 12:6-7; 11-13
King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


In v.7 we see 3 1/2 years given. In v.11 an additional 30 days. In v.12 an additional 45 days.

What that means is that there will be, once the Seven Year Tribulation ends...75 days which fits in the Prophetic TImeline perfectly for the establishment of the Kingdom. I believe the first thrity days will be the gathering of all nations, and the Sheep and Goat Judgment during the last forty five days.

What we cannot impose into the Prophetic timeline is a concept of Christ returning and the Eternal State beginning. We see in both Old and New Testament Prophecy that there is an extended physical time after the world is judged. Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20 are the key passages to understanding this.

The sacrifice being taken away and the Abomination of Desolation being set up coincides with Christ's Own teaching concerning the Tribulation:


Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


This coincides with Antichrist being empowered, persecuting Israel, and that is for 3 1/2 years:


Revelation 12:6-17
King James Version (KJV)

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.



13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The consistency of Prophecy is simply amazing.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Ephraim and Dan were the two tribes who were particularly given over to idolatry (1 Kings 12:28-29).

Not actually relevant.

We know those listed are counted as all of the Tribes of Israel.

Just because Judas went and hung himself doesn't mean that the Lord did not appear to all of the Disciples after His Resurrection, at which time there were only eleven.

But the whole thing is symbolic.

I am sorry you see it that way, because literal truth is always taught in Scripture, even when figurative language is used.

Satan will literally persecute Israel through the Antichrist when the Two Witnesses are killed, resurrected, and raptured.

God preserves them for the remaining 3 1/2 years. That is what Revelation teaches.

There is only one people of God;

This is true, but that does not mean there are not two distinct peoples. Jews are always going to be distinguished from Gentiles.

Paul does this often:


Galatians 2:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)


Yes, they are one in Christ, but, Jews were never told they must rid themselves of their heritage.

And we see in Revelation 7 that same distinction made. 144,000 Jews are sealed by God. Those already in Heaven are of all nations, including Jews. But the Jews still on earth retain their heritage just as we see in Romans 11. God will bring them into relationship through the very Covenant He promised them...on a National basis.

He has made the two one (Ephesians 2:14); believing Jew and believing Gentile together.

This is true. Doesn't change the fact that Gentiles do not become Jews and Jews do not become Gentiles. We see that nowhere in Scripture.

That does not mean that there can't be a great revival among the Jews one day,

God is Sovereign. The 144,000 are sealed by God apart from participation on their part.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

but it does mean that they will be saved in the same way as the Gentiles-- by repentance and faith in Christ.

Absolutely.

No man will enter that Kingdom apart from being born again. We are born again when we are brought into eternal union with God and He indwells us.

And God will still be sovereign in that:


Ezekiel 37:11-14
King James Version (KJV)

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, whether we are Jew or Gentile, raptured or going through The Tribulation.


Continued.

 

[Darrell C]

I hope there is such a revival and that I live to see it.

You won't, sorry.

The Church will not be here when the Tribulation starts. That is the demand of Prophecy, not wishful thinking.

I also hope that there is a great revival amongst the Moslems, and there seems to be more sign of that at the present time.

Well if radical Islam keeps it up, many will, by the very Law of God written on their hearts...reject Islam.

Sometimes it has to get pretty bad for some people to be shaken up.

Indeed. The opposite of what the JWs say.

That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in quite a while, lol.

. But they are the same people. The 144,000 are those who have been 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.........' (Ephesians 1:13-14; 2 Corinthians 1:22).

Sorry, no. They are clearly distinguished as two separate groups.

In the vision of the Great Crowd, the promise has been fulfilled.

Again, sorry, but no.

This is taking place during the Tribulation, and it is quite impossible to spiritualize this to a future vision of the One People of God:


Revelation 7:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Now keep in mind that this takes place between the sixth and seventh Seal Judgment. The most reasonable view is that the great multitude are those who have already perished. He doesn't ask who those who were numbered were, lol, because he is told (that he might record it).


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 does.

The problem is that Christ's Return is shown as a return to this earth, whereas the Rapture does not:


1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The whole idea of being "caught up" just makes more sense if we are actually...caught up.




And when he again comforts the Thessalonians...


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


He "beseeches them by the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him." How did he teach them about that? That the entire Church, dead and alive, would be caught up.

And what he is calming their fears about is the Day of the Lord, not the Rapture. In other words, "Do not think the Day of the Lord has come, I have already taught you, and this is what I beseech you to consider that you be comforted in your fears...that we are going to be caught up."

"The Day of the Lord can't possibly be taking place...because there has not been a falling away and the man of sin, the Antichrist has not been revealed."

Not all manuscripts have Christos, but have kyrios.

In v.1 Paul beseeches them by the Rapture (he has taught them about) not to think the Day of the Lord has come (v.2).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I agree with this. Think of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. Believers are like the wise virgins waiting for the arrival of the Bridegroom. When the Bridegroom arrives (coming with the clouds) we shall rise up (be 'raptured') to meet Him.

Again, think about the parousia.

The Bridegroom is coming to them for the marriage.

We will then return to earth with Him for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, while the unbelievers are shut outside awaiting judgement.

Whereas I see the Marriage Supper taking place on earth.

The parable of the Virgins doesn't indicate at all that there is a departure when the Bridegroom comes.

Again, this is a Kingdom Parable, and the Kingdom relevant to the Jews of Christ's Day was that which was based on what was revealed to them. The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not yet being revealed so while we can understand it through the Revelation we have been given, they would have understood it to refer to that Kingdom which is clearly shown as a physical Kingdom here on earth.

Those who are "shut out" are those who are unbelievers. Only born again believers enter into that Kingdom.

Darrell, we have such disparate views on eschatology that I do not see us coming to agreement, but I do thank you for your clearly-expressed posts.

Always a pleasure.

The Last day will declare it.

Yes, and I hope I can be gracious enough to accept your aplology.

I try not to fall out with anybody who believes in a physical return of Christ in glory at the end of time.

I don't have a problem with someone having a different view, I just get irritated when people mock the views of others without bothering to support their own.

As you say, the last day (of this Age, the Church Age, lol) will certainly declare it. I think there will be a lot of people glad to find out they were in error.



Okay, have a blessed evening, I hadn't planned on responding to any posts, just came on to comment on yet another post from our SDA friend in the lower region of the forum, lol. Still trying to teach "forgiveness revoked."


God bless.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Interesting that one of the smartest men to ever live said hundreds of years ago that the end of the world will happen in 2060.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Interesting that one of the smartest men to ever live said hundreds of years ago that the end of the world will happen in 2060.

He wasn't that smart. Mark 13:32-35.

 

[robycop3]

Actually, the rapture will happen when it happens. But I do believe the "man of sin" will come to power first, which should serve as a warning to the unsaved that time is short for them to come to Jesus & avoid the great trib. I believe the rapture will occur before this man institutes the "marka the beast" so opposition to it will be very slight with no Christians to speak against it.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

He wasn't that smart. Mark 13:32-35.

He was a lot smarter than most people alive today and back then. See Isaac Newton's IQ - Sir Isaac Newton Online

I know my IQ doesn't' compare to 190, which is 30 points or so higher than Einstein. He was the first person to decipher most of the laws of physics. As for Scripture, I don't think the was forecasting a day but a season which the bible states Chrisitians will know. If he said December 21, 2012 or December 31, 1999 or when the four blood moons arise you might have a case against him.