Where are all the converts?

[standingfirminChrist]

Should it really be about numbers? I mean, I believe God wants committment more than He wants numbers. Did not David get in trouble for numbering an army? There is a lesson to be learned there.

I never had a board up in the church to show how many came, how many brought their Bibles, how much was but in offering.

I did have quarterly meetings where revenue was discussed. But no board on the walls.

There were only a handful in the 8 years I pastored who questioned why there was no board.

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by shannonL:
I was just looking at a IFB church's website. The church was in TX. The pastor has been there 20yrs.
They have about 1200 members who regularly attend.
However on their website under the pastor's bio. (interesting) I see that they average around 600 baptisms a year.

So lets see. over the last 20yrs. X 600 baptisms per year somes to about 12,000 people. The church stated plainly that they run about 1200. So where did the 9000 or so other folk go?

Over the 20 or 22 year ministry of this pastor they have had according to their own documentation 12,000 people that have been saved. At least that is what I thought happened to a person if they have been baptized? Not that baptism saves you I'm just being a little sarcastic. Only 10% or so of the 12,000 that have made "decisions"over a 20yr. period have remained in the church etc...?

I just have to laugh. A church basically brags about all these baptisms yet can't even see themselves that maybe something "ain't right"?

How arrogant or maybe ignorant it is to make such a claim of 12,000 people coming to Christ under your church's ministry yet you can't find no more than about 10% of them all together.

What do some of you all think?

maybe they didn't baptize 12,000 folks. Maybe there were just two or three who were really, REALLY unsure about their salvation and got baptized 3-4,000 times each.

You know us baptists...gotta count those "re-baptisms" too!

 

[EdSutton]

The individual who usually does the 'counting' at our church is a very consciencious individual. He and I have discussed the counts he or I (and a couple of others occasionally) get. We have both made the observation that we get as accurate a count as we can. Both of us have said that sometimes we may miss some, or count some twice in the process. Our general idea is we don't worry too much about it, for we figure this is only for the information of the local church. He once remarked, and I and the others agree, that God certainly has a perfect count, for he never counts twice nor misses anyone. Amen and amen!

And I'm pretty sure the same thing is true in regards to "converts".

In His grace,
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

There is a fairly popular tract titled: "The Four Spiritual Laws" (c) Campus Crusade some years ago made extensive use of this, as have many churches over the years. (I said this about Campus Crusade, for I've had no real contact with them for many years, since I, as an adult??, am not around any campii to speak of.) As popular as it may have been, I'd suggest that the 'Baptist' version of this, "The Four D's", is more what we are speaking of here. And I suggest that it is more devastating, as well.

"The Four D's of 'Discipleship'", according to many Baptists:

1.) Draw 'em in the door.

2.) Drag 'em down the aisle.

3.) Dip 'em in the tank.

4.) Drop 'em.

Then we can watch the fifth "D", resulting- - the Dearth of spiritual growth.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[rbell]

beyond baptisms...a more general rule that many have alluded to...

We have a philosophy here of being numerically conservative. For instance, if an event brings in 175 people, we will say the exact number, or "over 150 people," rather than "nearly 200 people" or the like.

When you get "loose" with numbers, it just looks a bit dishonest. Not to mention, then when you have modest growth...like growing from 170 to 180, you don't have to pad the numbers further to look like you've grown numerically.

Conservative estimates, whether it's numbers, finances, baptisms, or whatever, just makes things easier.

 

[shannonL]

Well I'm glad this turned into a good discussion.
Those of you who think that I was picking on that church you were wrong. I just happened upon it.

I can't remember the name of the church but I know it is the headquaters for a new approach to missions amongst IFB. The mission board that is run out of that church is called Global Partners or something like that. It is the idea that we can support national missionaries with about 50 dollars to 100 dollars a month instead of your conventional missionary. The missionary partners with the "pioneer" which would be the national pastor etc.. The idea is your money can go alot farther supporting the national. You will see "faster" more converts etc... doing missions this way. I don't think it is to good of an idea. Especially after going to the website and looking around.
I don't care what anyone thinks to claim to baptize 600 a year for around 20 yrs. and only have 1200 regularly attending tells me that alot of them folk probably arent' saved that they are counting as part of the 600 a year.
I don't care what you factor in people dying, moving etc... whatever.

Also, I hate to break it to the Hyles folk but this man has men on staff from HAC so now I see where the #'s stuff factors in.
Anyway, not picking on that church just using it for an example.

 

[bapmom]

Im not sure if this is what you meant, but Id have to disagree with you that supporting national pastors is a bad idea. I think it is in fact a very good idea. Who are we (first of all) to wonder about the integrity of these men who have very literally often left all in order to follow Christ? THe average American missionary has not seen even a fraction of the rejection for Christ's sake that these national pastors have seen and are still seeing because of their ministry. And they can be supported completely on less than 50 dollars a month. Yet we think they are just trying to "get our American money". At least thats usually the objection to this national pastor idea.

And SFIC, David was in trouble for numbering the people when he did it for his own glory. I don't think this would negate the practice of taking down numbers entirely.

Also, just because a ministry is large does not mean it is "all about numbers."

 

[bapmom]

Tom B.

actually I think a baptism goal might not be a bad thing. I think it perhaps is more attainable than a souls-saved goal within a certain time range. As a personal goal I think it ought to be every Christian's goal to have a certain amount in mind of people who they have presented the gospel to each week. This allows for the true moving of the Holy Spirit and puts the emphasis on what the Christian really has control over.

I think there definitely is a time when we just shut up and let the Holy SPirit work within a witnessing scenario. There are times when we get in such a talk-mode that we interrupt the Holy Spirit. The listener has to have time to ponder what you say, and we need to give them that time. Ive stepped back before, and not pushed, when it was obvious the person was just humoring me, or had something else they felt more important on their mind.

One of my habits though is, that once they take a tract I won't take it back. If they throw it on the ground, Im not above picking it up, though.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If they try to hand it back to ya, just say 'No thanks, I've read it.'

 

[Boanerges]

Originally posted by shannonL:
I was just looking at a IFB church's website. The church was in TX. The pastor has been there 20yrs.
They have about 1200 members who regularly attend.
However on their website under the pastor's bio. (interesting) I see that they average around 600 baptisms a year.

So lets see. over the last 20yrs. X 600 baptisms per year somes to about 12,000 people. The church stated plainly that they run about 1200. So where did the 9000 or so other folk go?

They are all probably hanging out in the same place that all the Passion movie and Narnia movie converts are hanging out. In the minds of the those who try to use Hollywood to preach the Gospel and save the lost.

 

[bapmom]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If they try to hand it back to ya, just say 'No thanks, I've read it.'

Thats a good one, too