Where are the D.L Moody(s) of the World?

[Jarthur001]

1st off Bob Ryan…good subject. This is more what we should address and closer to the root then a lot of the “church” views.

I hate to put out your fire Bob and Bob, but there is another view that is closer to the truth. You are closer to the truth then many that want to have grace under no rule, for you address Gods nature. Nonetheless, you are missing one key word….Grace. Grace is the key to the NT. Where as, “the Law” a key in understanding the OT. Using both of these as a lens to view each, we come closer to understanding. You have not done this when you do not address grace and only look at the Law. Yet..even with these lenses in place, we can see a small picture of grace in the OT. Likewise the Law has a place in the NT.

You have tried to address the problem by breaking the law apart. This is held by many as you know. When you break the Law into 2 areas such as you do, this does not help, but rather places the focus onto other areas that must be addressed at sometime. More on this later.

Right now I want to just start by giving a goal to reach for. What we must do is see how that both principles (Grace and the Law) can live together and brings us the gospel without forgetting the nature of God. Again..the main area that is overlooked on this tread is Grace.

This is compared to other threads where Grace over-rules Gods nature in replacing His holy Law with Grace. Where as this is true in salvation, to replace the Law in all areas and change it into the law of grace is rejecting who God is. Mainly God and He being all holy and just and One that hates sin and this is found in the Law.

That is the task at hand. How does the Law and grace work together?


IN Christ...James

 

[Jim1999]

How does law and grace work together? The law shows us God's standard and its unachievability in man's natural fallen state. Grace makes that standard achievable through sanctification; all the works of God through grace attainable because of the cross. Salvation came by grace in both Old and New Testaments.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
How does law and grace work together? The law shows us God's standard and its unachievability in man's natural fallen state. Grace makes that standard achievable through sanctification; all the works of God through grace attainable because of the cross. Salvation came by grace in both Old and New Testaments.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim,


Indeed. This is salvation..Grace. The Law showed us we could never do it on our own. This is the age of Grace. The Blood of Christ in His death on the cross has abrogated Justification though the Law. Yet though died in salvation, the Law still is very much alive. What role does it now play?

You said one way..It is still alive showing us salvation is unachievability with works. This role of the Law is not just in the past, but lives today as well. We could not keep good deeds to save us in the OT and we still cannot today. The Law still points to us as GUILTY!!

Are there other ways we are to use the Law in this day of Grace?


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Jarthur;
Check out this site and you will get my answer.

http://webpages.charter.net/screamingeagles/Old%20Regular%20Baptist%20Song%20Books/index

 

[BobRyan]

James said --
That is the task at hand. How does the Law and grace work together?

you can see Law and grace together in Romans 2 and James 2.

In Romans 2 Paul speaks of "the Gospel" showing how the future judgment FITS into the Gospel and also showing how "Justification" fits with "The Doers not the Hearers-only" Rom 2:11-13.

There are those who "suppose" that "God gave laws OPPOSED to the gospel and opposed to Grace". Such is not the case. The Law "is NOT Grace" but it FITS in the Gospel!

The "good news" of the Gospel is NOT ONLY that the criminals are forgiven! It is ALSO that the criminals are FREED from slavery to crime!

There are many who reject the idea that it is "Good news" that those in rebellion against the Creator - are FREED from being opposed to Christ! They simply are not thinking.

Freedom from the PENALTY of Sin (Rom 3) is combined with freedom from SLAVERY to Sin (Rom 6).

And in Romans 3 we find that sin is DEFINED as transgression against God's Law (See the same point emphasized in Romans 7).

In other words - INSTEAD of abolishing HIS OWN LAW to solve the sin problem - God provides both a substitutionary atonement AND the New Birth! It is BOTH - not just one!

Grace requires BOTH forgiveness AND reconciliation. The OT asks "Can TWO walk together except they be AGREED". Paul says "In My new MIND I AGREE with the LAW of GOD"!

D.L. Moody appears to have grasped that point perfectly!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
How does law and grace work together? The law shows us God's standard and its unachievability in man's natural fallen state. Grace makes that standard achievable through sanctification; all the works of God through grace attainable because of the cross. Salvation came by grace in both Old and New Testaments.

This is one of those times when I just have to agree with Jim!

 

[Brother Bob]

Jim;
Salvation is unachievabile but the keeping of the Law is not but after you have kept it you still have all those sins against you that were already committed. If the law in unachievable then people are still committing adultery the same time they are being saved. It just don't work.

 

[Claudia_T]

James,

Yes, one role of the Law is that we are supposed to then keep it. And you cant keep it unless you know what it is.

Rom:2:13: For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jms:1:25: But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Claudia_T]

John Wesley explained how the law and the gospel work together:

"There is, therefore, the closest connection that can be conceived, between the law and the gospel. On the one hand, the law continually makes way for, and points us to, the gospel; on the other, the gospel continually leads us to a more exact fulfilling of the law.

The law, for instance, requires us to love God, to love our neighbor, to be meek, humble, or holy. We feel that we are not sufficient for these things; yea, that 'with man this is impossible;' but we see a promise of God to give us that love, and to make us humble, meek, and holy: we lay hold of this gospel, of these glad tidings; it is done unto us according to our faith; and 'the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us,' through faith which is in Christ Jesus. . . ." --Wesley, sermon 25


And I agree with that, I think this is how it works.


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

Bump -- here is another thread where the non-SDA Christians that choose to honor God's Ten Commandments (as did D.L.Moody) have spoken out.

 

[Jim1999]

I don't think any true believer seeks to abrogate the ten commandments, but to put them in proper perspective. We just can't keep them. If we offend in one we offend in all. As we learned in the New Testament, a young man said he kept all the laws from his youth on up, and Jesus did not deny this statement. The Lord did, however, expand on the contents of the law...take what you have and give to the needy....He couldn't do this and went his way. The law revealed is human inadequacies and inability to keep ALL the laws, including their interpretation.

I see the law as a mirror. I look into the glass and everything appears fine, but my tie is slightly crooked. I failed the mirror test. The law was intended to mirror God's standard, and not as a standard of living. In the New Testament this was expanded and broken down to, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God,,,and thy neighbour as thyself...Again, impossible. I dare to say we have all come up short on both parts.

Then, thankfully, the Lord introduces a way of escape. It is called grace. Grace is the instrument that makes the impossible possible. In this sense we strive toward perfection through sanctification. It is not an instantaneous event, but a continuous working of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Brother Bob]

Philippians, chapter 3
"4": Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

"5": Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

"6": Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

"7": But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.


The young man was same as Apostle Paul who was blameless in keeping the Law. He just would not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I don't think any true believer seeks to abrogate the ten commandments

If you feel the need to apply the term "ABOLISH" to the Ten Commadments as a few have done on this board - then "yes" you are abrogating them.

If you feel the need to argue that IF we allow for God's Ten Commandments then we might have to allow for other things in God's Word and THEN "where will it all stop" as some have argued on this board -- they "yes" you are abrogating the Ten Commandments.

Originally posted by Jim1999:
, but to put them in proper perspective.

I am all for "context and perspective". HEre is the one GOD gave for them...

Exodus 20
1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 "" I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

I –

3 "" You shall have no other gods before Me.

Here is the Way Christ emphasized them "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

Originally posted by Jim1999:
We just can't keep them. If we offend in one we offend in all.

#1. Christ did not say "IF you Love Me you CANT KEEP My Commandments".

#2. The quote you give from James 2 does NOT say "If you break one then you break them all so go ahead and break them". RATHER it says --
(now pay really really close attention to the DETAIL here)

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,'' you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

INSTEAD of arguing "these are just too much for us to KEEP - JAmes makes the OPPOSITE argument with his "He who is guilty of one is guilty of all" argument!!

IF the only purpose of the LAW was to PROVE that we NEED to rebel against God and that no matter how hard we try IN Christ to honor HIM we are STILL in slavery to rebellion - then we would not even HAVE James 2 or Romans 6 or Matt 7 or Romans 7 or Romans 8 or 1 John 2 or ...!

Your argument makes these texts "impossible" in scripture. And yet - there they are for all the world to see!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jim1999]

My thesis remains....I am not trying to interpret scripture, just read it, and that reading is quite clear to me. It tells me I am guilty, but excused in the cross of the Christ on Calvary. I live because of Him, and not in my ragged impurety.

I cannot read more into the scripture than is there, and I must read it in its historical context.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Claudia_T]

The truth is that we should endeavor to keep the commandments out of love for God and love for our neighbor. But we should always and ever rely on the merits of Christ for salvation.


You dont keep the commandments to try to "get saved". You keep them because God commanded you to and because they are right and beneficial and protect you and others from danger.

If you keep the commandments in order to avoid hell or gain heaven then you are just as self-centered as you always were.

at least thats always been my opinion.

Claudia

 

[Jim1999]

Bob, just try reading what I say and stop reading into what I am saying. A good lesson in English might help.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it much in the same way as an oak tree fulfils an acorn. The oak tree did not abolish the acorn but fulfilled it.

Hebrews states that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ. Without the law there would have been no sense of sin or wrong and order and disorder.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
INSTEAD of arguing "these are just too much for us to KEEP - JAmes makes the OPPOSITE argument with his "He who is guilty of one is guilty of all" argument!!

You are taking the entire book of James out of its context. The context is to a group of Greek speaking Jews who think they are God's people and are therefore saved by their thinking they are God's people. James points out the difference between a genuine saving faith and a creedal faith written on a page. A genuine saving faith is written in the hearts of believers. Whereas a creedal faith--the shema is simply written on a page and repeated. There is a difference between a genuine belief and an acknowledgment of a belief which amounts to nothing more than words.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Also - it seems that people would figure out that the "scriptures" being quoted by all NT authors was the ones people today wanted to dump.

You did forget to state that many quotes in the NT are also lifted out of context and applied in a completely different context.

 

[Claudia_T]

you cant worship idols and refrain from committing adultery yet claim to keep the commandments and to love God.

If you break one commandment you may as well have broken them all.

why? because you have an underlying disloyalty to God, a rebellious spirit, if you break one of them

Just like when Jesus said that he who is faithful in little things is faithful in much.

or to put it in old testament crude terms:


Eccl:10:1: Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.


or you could say "One bad apple DOES spoil the whole bunch"