Where Arminians should critique Calvinism

[Scott J]

Still waiting on you to actually give an answer Bob. You didn't come close in that post.

I am not pretending not to do anything. I am asking you a very direct, relevant question that is critical for a system to answer if it is going to actually discuss the concept of biblical salvation.

Is salvation ultimately God giving some people credit for making a good decision completely of their own free will?

Is salvation ultimately God giving some people a new nature so that they will choose Him of their own free will?

Is there another answer that I haven't considered? I have asked numerous arminians to add their own answer so long as it actually addresses the root of the question.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Bob, Do you now or do you have expectations in heaven of rejoicing in the holiness of God?

Yes - BUT NOT at the sight of my precious child writhing in the flames!!

This is why we do NOT see "Every tear wiped away" in heaven until Rev 21 where the new heavens and New earth have been created and the lake of fire event is a thing of the "old earth" - passed.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So you are saying that you will not rejoice in God's holiness when He demonstrates it by rightly punishing those who have hated Him and despised His sacrifice? You are saying that your compassion for a wicked Christ-hating human being supercedes your love and sympathy for Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

Nope I am saying that JUST AS God WEEPS over the case of the lost - SO will those who have been given "The Mind of Christ"

1Cor 2

15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. 3


The thing is -- this just isn't that hard.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Just when Calvinism has "talked itself" into accepting the idea that "God just hates the MANY of Matt 7 - get over it" -- we find...

SEE how the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

Prov 24:17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18Or the LORD will see it and be displeased,

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Nope I am saying that JUST AS God WEEPS over the case of the lost - SO will those who have been given "The Mind of Christ"

And just as God is glorified by demonstrations of His holiness... those with the mind of Christ will glory in it.

This actually is a mystery that on the one hand wrath will glorify God which must be rejoiced over while also lamenting the fate of the lost.

 

[Scott J]

Still waiting on you to give a valid answer to my question Bob... or you could attempt to explain why it isn't important.

BTW, you are stretching the scriptures you cite out of their context. All deal with the present world, not final judgment or even whether God's temporal judgment should not be a cause for rejoicing.

 

[BobRyan]

#1. God does not change.

#2. God does not describe Himself for the mere purpose of having Calvinist say "Oh no He is not".

#3. I thought your questions were about free will and choice. Were you asking about something "else"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This actually is a mystery that on the one hand wrath will glorify God which must be rejoiced over while also lamenting the fate of the lost.

Where do we ever see Calvinists promoting the Bible truth that God weeps over the lost and that WE TOO Will have that SAME view when WE consider our own loved ones - lost and suffering in the flames?

So far - Calvinists have only scoffed at that as a "weak God".

Can you point to some place where they are "Affirming" that truth of scripture rather than kicking against it??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God says in Romans 2 that he is NOT partial.

Calvinists will counter that it is the total and complete arbitrary nature of God's selection process (they call it Unconditional Election) that shows him to be IMPARTIAL.

However that Calvinist argument fails to comprehend the meaning of "impartial".

It does not matter whether you favor person-A just because they have blue eyes -- or just because you innexplicably feel like favoring them over everyone else in your town. Once you do it - you are "partial" by definition!

Calvinism does not argue that "we have not yet guessed" why God shows partiality to one over another. It argues that there CAN BE NO reason that has to do WITH THE PERSON being favored or it is not really and truly "grace".

So the random and arbitrary nature of selection - is all that they have left - and THAT is pure partiality!

The very thing that Romans 2 denies.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

#3. I thought your questions were about free will and choice. Were you asking about something "else"?

In Christ,

Bob

Yes. I am asking what the reason is for some people using their "free will and choice" to accept while others use it to reject.

I am not looking for a "what" or "how" answer concerning free will and choice. I am looking for a "why" answer.

I can only think of two possible reasons (and I mentioned this before so you would not misunderstand my question) that one person accepts while another doesn't: either God ultimately does something that causes the particular acceptance of a particular individual or else that individual has something about him that enables him to make a better "choice" (the person is in fact better than non-believers in some way critical to accepting the gospel).

The second answer does not assume that one who accepts is less of a sinner than one who doesn't but rather that they were some how personally and independently capable of an infinitely better decision.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

However that Calvinist argument fails to comprehend the meaning of "impartial".

It does not matter whether you favor person-A just because they have blue eyes -- or just because you innexplicably feel like favoring them over everyone else in your town. Once you do it - you are "partial" by definition!

The interesting thing here is that your system requires that God not be impartial. His favor is dependent on the "choice", "faith", or positive act of "free will" by a human being.

IOW's, God looked down through the ages and saw that some would possess an attribute that He liked so He was partial to them and not the ones lacking the attribute.

The amazing thing about most arminian arguments against calvinism is that they defeat arminianism if applied by the same rule.

 

[BobRyan]

The interesting thing here is that your system requires that God not be impartial. His favor is dependent on the "choice", "faith", or positive act of "free will" by a human being.

You are simply proving my point - Calvinists have a hard time with the word "Impartial".

THE WHOLE POINT of an impartial judge is to provide a leveling factor and then let the events decide rather than YOU forcing person-A to choose life rather than person-B.

By DEFINITION - impartiality does not allow you to favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON!

In a free will system A and B "get to decide" something OR ELSE there is nothing BUT partiality when the result is "A is identical to B but A gets selected"!!

This just isn't that hard to get.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:

#3. I thought your questions were about free will and choice. Were you asking about something "else"?

In Christ,

Bob

Yes. I am asking what the reason is for some people using their "free will and choice" to accept while others use it to reject.

I am not looking for a "what" or "how" answer concerning free will and choice. I am looking for a "why" answer.

I can only think of two possible reasons (and I mentioned this before so you would not misunderstand my question) that one person accepts while another doesn't: either God ultimately does something that causes the particular acceptance of a particular individual or else that individual has something about him that enables him to make a better "choice" (the person is in fact better than non-believers in some way critical to accepting the gospel).

The second answer does not assume that one who accepts is less of a sinner than one who doesn't but rather that they were some how personally and independently capable of an infinitely better decision. </font>[/QUOTE]Bump to Bob.

So why is it Bob that you accepted while some other fool equally enabled to accept did not?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The interesting thing here is that your system requires that God not be impartial. His favor is dependent on the "choice", "faith", or positive act of "free will" by a human being.

You are simply proving my point - Calvinists have a hard time with the word "Impartial".

THE WHOLE POINT of an impartial judge is to provide a leveling factor and then let the events decide rather than YOU forcing person-A to choose life rather than person-B.

By DEFINITION - impartiality does not allow you to favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON!</font>[/QUOTE] INCLUDING A FOREKNOWN CHOICE.

In a free will system A and B "get to decide" something OR ELSE there is nothing BUT partiality when the result is "A is identical to B but A gets selected"!!

If they decide good or evil then that is an act of merit contradictory to the declaration of scripture that salvation is by grace.

You still have God showing partiality toward those who deserve it... Calvinism never makes it an issue of personal merit therefore God does what He does for His own glory.

By your definition of impartial, God is not "impartial" under your system or mine. In yours He is partial to those who make the right decision. In mine, He is partial toward those to whom He would show mercy.

BTW, please quote the word "impartial" in scripture. Thanks.

This just isn't that hard to get.

No. It really isn't. Every time you think you have set a trap for calvinists, it springs up and gets you too.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb]
#3. I thought your questions were about free will and choice. Were you asking about something "else"?

Originally posted by Scott J:

Yes. I am asking what the reason is for some people using their "free will and choice" to accept while others use it to reject.

Fine.

I show in "Free will 101" that LONG before you get to present day mankind - you had this issue with Lucifer and then with all the Angels and then with Adam.

This is not something that "just happened".

I am not looking for a "what" or "how" answer concerning free will and choice. I am looking for a "why" answer.

But "Free will" is the "Mechanism" that allows 1/3 of the angels to make BAD choices and 2/3's to make GOOD ONES.

You ask "WHY did they choose wrong" - Free Will in BOTH cases would say that they entered into a debate, they weighed TWO options and made a choice AND neither side had perfect foreknowledge so that they could KNOW for certainty which decision was flawless.

In othere words - it was not a trivial task to decide. They needed to exercise some trust and they needed to reject an apparently unnanswerable argument.

Calvinism will always toss out the mechanism of FREE WILL and circle back to its old ideas that "you only do something if you are MADE to do it".

I can only think of two possible reasons (and I mentioned this before so you would not misunderstand my question) that one person accepts while another doesn't: either God ultimately does something that causes the particular acceptance of a particular individual or else that individual has something about him that enables him to make a better "choice" (the person is in fact better than non-believers in some way critical to accepting the gospel).

As predicted.

So either God MAKES them do it - or God makes them in such a WAY that they do it.

Same old Same old

But if you are asking an Arminian - they will always introduce the mechanism of free will and CHOICE as the thing that ENABLES people MADE the same to make DIFFERENT choices without being CAUSED to make different choices nor engineered defectively so as to make different choices.

Free will states that ALL the Angels are CAPABLE of loyalty. Adam is CAPABLE of remaining steadfast and ALL mankind is ENABLED and thus fully CAPABLE of choosing to accept Christ.

The problem is NOT with the "maker" (for umpteen zillionth time).

This is as "opposed" to the CAlvinist "environment MADE me or my maker MADE Me do it"

The second answer does not assume that one who accepts is less of a sinner than one who doesn't but rather that they were some how personally and independently capable of an infinitely better decision.

Right that would be my MAKER (at my origin) made me do it by making ME MORE capable than someone else. I.E - Calvinism

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Scott J]

By DEFINITION - impartiality does not allow you to favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON!

I've grown more interested in where you think this concept of impartiality comes from.

The only way to satisfy the rule you made here is to accept universalism.

Regardless of why you say someone believes, I think we agree that someone must accept Christ to be the object of God's favor- Don't we? That IS a reason for His impartiality toward us both in this life and the one to come.

 

[Scott J]

Bob, I still didn't just ask you why some reject Christ... I simply acknowledged that they did. I asked why some accept Him instead.

I agree that man and, from scant scriptural evidence, angels possess the free will necessary to reject Him. What I don't agree with is that after this choice has been made, causing spiritual death, the person then can simply decide to "live" again. I believe that like natural death it requires the miracle of regeneration to restore a man to spiritual life.

BTW, we can argue over your straw men concerning my supposed belief that God makes some people believe somewhere else if you like. That straw man only detracts from obtaining a clear, concise, scriptural answer concerning "why" someone believes.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a free will system A and B "get to decide" something OR ELSE there is nothing BUT partiality when the result is "A is identical to B but A gets selected"!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott said --
If they decide good or evil then that is an act of merit contradictory to the declaration of scripture that salvation is by grace.

This is just your way of explaining WHY you reject Romans 2 that says God is NOT PARTIAL!

It makes the statement whle REVIEWING what the saved and the lost DO!

Please notice the details!

You are simply explaining WHY Calvinism would not want the scripture to exist.

It does not help your case to argue that Calvinism would SUPPOSE that if God is NOT partial THEN He has creatd a salvation-by-merit system!

I understand why you need to go there. I just don't see how it solves your problem.

You still have God showing partiality

Only if we allow Calvinists to REDEFINE Partiality (as they have needed to REDEFINE ALL and WORLD and EVERY MAN, and ANYONE and WHOLE WORLD..).

Please provide your redefinitin of partiality so I can see what you mean.

In the mean time - here is what the "rest of the World" thinks the word means.

impartiality - an inclination to weigh both views or opinions equally.

So in the case of Person-A and Person-B -- it would be treating them both equally.

Get it?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Scott J]

But if you are asking an Arminian - they will always introduce the mechanism of free will and CHOICE as the thing that ENABLES people MADE the same to make DIFFERENT choices without being CAUSED to make different choices nor engineered defectively so as to make different choices.

This is the very evasion I predicted and asked you not to engage in.

I know what your "mechanism" is. What you have failed to answer is what triggers this "mechanism" in one person to accept Christ rather than continuing in unbelief while another that according to you is equally free to choose Christ does not.

This question really isn't that hard if your system actually works and is compatible with scripture.

 

[Scott J]

Romans 2 specifically says that God is no respecter of persons concerning the fact that all are condemned under the law. He does not respect the Jews because of their religion nor the gentiles for their lack of it.