Where Arminians should critique Calvinism

[BobRyan]

Extracting LLoyd's "obligatory ranting" we get...

The LOOK to Jesus is the equivalent to a decision.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

The choice you are disdaining - is the choice invovled in conversion and the prereq into Justification. You admit to its existence and you whine that I do too.

How confusing for you.

You "conveniently" redefine justification so that it EXCLUDES the active part of the sinner in entering into salvation (as noted above in John 6) so that you can then use the circular argument "The sinner is passive in Justification not active".

My argument is that NOT ONLY it the WORK described in John 6 real - but Paul argues that it must continue.

"AS you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus SO WALK IN Him" Col 2


IN Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Clever words. Prerequisites for justification can be anything. It doesn't matter for those prerequisites don't justify. The only thing that justifies is faith in Jesus. Even you used John 6:29 rightly - until you started twisting it with theology.

Why not simply believe the verse as it is written? Believe in Jesus! Water baptism doesn't work. Circumcisions is likewise foolish. All other human activities are likewise denied.

These good deeds belong to sanctification. The concept you keep trying to pound into justificiation.

Can you find a sanctification verse anywhere that leads to salvific justification? No you can't. The lexical evidences still spank you Bob.

You confuse the active decision for Christ through faith as the passive that is involved with justification.

For justification:
__ Faith is active as it looks to Christ.
__ God alone justifies
__ Humans are passive.

For sanctification
__ Faith is active in obedience
__ God sets believers aside into His family
__ Humans are active in purification.

I know I just gave you six things. Plenty to work through. I understand if you have trouble keeping them straight.

Your trouble comes in that you confuse:
__ purification with God's sanctification.
__ the activity of faith in justification with the activity of faith in purification.
__ justification with sanctification.

Give it a whirl. I recall a math thing my neighbor's son had to try 19 times before he figured it out. My neighbor gave up after 4 times. Perhaps you need 19 times as well.

Good luck.
Work the lexiccal evidences!
Use God's Word and depend on Christ - not your human-centered Christ-denying philosophy.

Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Lloyd -

By playing word games you get justification to be nothing more than the RESPONSE to the WORKD of God "which is to BELEIVE on the Lord Jesus Christ" as pointed out.

So given the way you slice justification down to convineniently IGNORE the faith promised in the Gospel and the choice to OPEN THE DOOR as CHRIST emphasized in Rev 3 -- you have a myopic view that filters out just enough scripture to fit your view of salvation.

Nice going - but in doing so you have simply got THE COMMON GROUND. If we all agreed to slice and dice salvation - we would have that same sliver that you identify and would happily conclude that in that sliver the faith and the choice made - is ALREADY made and the sliver is confined to God's response in the New Birth and forgiveness (peace with God) THEN STOPS.

But as I pointed out - ALL DURING that time - the sinner is STILL exerting the choice for faith.

So your "passive" -- indifferent Christian does not exist in that phase either.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

A proper response to the biblical lexical evidences is not one's personal opinion.

If you don't like the way God writes His Word, then you have two choices: willfully and knowingly continue denying Him, or repent.

It would be nice if you would try a biblical response! I presented 100% (40 uses) of the justification verses in the Bible. Your task in refuting them is to use Bible to show me my error.

Retreats to Romish theology don't count for much. Bible should be our common denominator.

The sinner exerts the choice for faith in Jesus and gets saved. The believer who still sins also exerts a choice for faith in Jesus and gets rewards. This is what you cannot comprehend. Justification is in parallel with yet distinct from sanctification. Destiny is UNconditionally determined at the moment of faith; rewards are conditional.

Where is your Bible proofs to refute God's Word?
Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Lloyd you are the only one in our discussions to claim that you have a lot of work to do in refuting God's Word.

I never go that route.

Or had you noticed?

Simply pontificating and ranting as you do - is not actually "making a point" - so why not make one instead?

So back to your word gaming and my response -

BobRyan said
But as I pointed out - ALL DURING that time - the sinner is STILL exerting the choice for faith.

So your "passive" -- indifferent Christian does not exist in that phase either.

What this MEANS is that you have already failed.

#1. YOU ALREADY ADMIT that faith is an ACTIVE part played by the sinner and is REQUIRED for salvation and justification.

#2. You simply Word-game yourself around to claiming that Justification is a faithless point in the sinner's life so that you can imagine PASSIVE indifference for the sinner when it comes to justification.

#3. SINCE you admit that the sinner MUST have ACTIVE faith to start the process AND the Bible NEVER claims that faith to "DIE OUT" while being justified -- spoken of as a past event -- you have lost before you started.

See? Yet?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Lloyd you are the only one in our discussions to claim that you have a lot of work to do in refuting God's Word.

I never go that route. Or had you noticed?

Yeah Bob. I've noticed that you simply abuse verses by yanking them out of context, redefining common sense words, and stringing them together.

You customarily confuse sanctification verses as proofs for justification.

It is like you live each day in a thick fog. Can you actually see anything?

When have you ever responded to the lexical evidences of justification? Never that I can tell. You simply run to sanctification verses.

The previous posts obtusely confuses active faith in making a decision for Christ (justification). You wrongly equate that with the activity of faith in obedience (sanctification).

The lexical evidences show that the faith in Jesus for Justification activates God's declarations of forgiveness and imputed righteousness. The believer is strictly passive throughout this.

How little you see. How much you wag.
Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
I would be the first to admit that God is all knowledgeable but does this mean that nothing escapes His knowing?

These verses would certainly suggest that he wasn't to sure about Sodom and Gomorrah. Otherwise why would God have to go see for Him self?.


Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

Mike -

The "Reason" that we think God knows all - is because HE SAYS He knows all in His Word. As the Alpha and Omega He claims not only to know all events past present and future - but also claims to know and weigh the thoughts and motives of each heart.

Proverbs 16:2
All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

So obviously if God already knew ALL the thoughts and motives of ALL humans - He must ALREADY have known the condition of Sodom.

The real question then is WHY does God present Himself as "investigating" the matter AS IF objective discovery, reason and conclusion are His ways and means?

It is because this is the most accurate and reliable representation of His Character. It SHOWS HIM NOT to be acting based on arbitrary whim and fickle notion - but rather to be a God of order, fact and objective reason.

Hence in Dan 7 you see a judgment sceen where God in a a massive courtroom - myriads and myriads attending - the books are opened and judgment takes place. THEN as we see in vs 21 Judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

It is an orderly - objective verifiable system of verifiable evidence that compells conclusions that are just. As Romans 2 shows, as Matt 7 shows, as Daniel 7 shows as Genesis shows.

In Christ,

Bob