Where do/does you/your church stand on music?

Wow, you surely are well versed in CCM. I'll answer what you have stated to the best of my ability. I should start out by saying, however, that everything I stated was from my personal experience.

Nope, never listened to Christian metal, but I did listen to real metal before I was saved.

Ro:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Heavy metal/speed metal/thrash metal conform too closely to the world FOR ME. Not being judgemental just because I'm quoting scripture, just defending my position.

Well, the Bible says that we should remain unspotted by the world, I would assume in this case, this means covering the world's songs and performing with secular artists, not to mention looking like the secular artists and acting like secular artists. Check out the verse:

Jas:1:27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

et al.

You, yourself, stated that many of these paid tribute to secular music (monetarily and otherwise) by performing songs of secular musicians and "collaborating" with them. We are supposed to be "unspotted." It seems this would hardly qualify.

Jas:4:4: Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Perhaps, but that does nothing to negate the FACT that non-Christian, occasionally antichrist performers wrote, performed, and made famous the song. We also might be tempted to forget that CCM artists pay royalties to the secular musicians for the "privelege" of using their music. Refer to James 4:4 and Romans 12:12.

Does music have the ability to change your mood? Have you ever felt pumped after listening to a song? Have you ever used music to mellow you out. That's what I'm talking about. Now, however, I have a friend who sticks closer than a brother, someone who will take my burdens. I don't need the sedative or stimulant that secular music or it's counterfiet, CCM, provides.

M't:11:28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

(with regards to a "christian" group who has covered Led)77's Click here Page for the album where you will find "Nobody's Fault But Mine."

I really don't know how it could be cool for a Christian to be involved by any degree to Led Zeppelin, but you are entitled to your opinion. See verses listed above.

Man, I wish I could rid my mind of all that I learned listening to classic rock music and fill it with the Word. I could tell you all about the history, discography, everything regarding Led Zeppelin, Eagles, Beatles, Who, Doors, Hendrix, etc., but I have problems with a Bible verse coming to mind. That's sad. I pray the Lord flushes this stuff out while I eat of the Word.

It all boils down to this, and yes, it really all boils down to this...what would Jesus do?

I apologize to everyone else for the lengthy post, oh, and by the way, the church I was going to before my present one played all kinds of music and did unscriptural things, but my wife and I sought a church that stuck to the fundamentals of the Bible, and that's how I became an "Indy Fundie." So, to answer the question, I listen mostly to hymns, our church has a mix of mostly old hymns and some newer praise songs (not the vain repetition kind).

[ December 04, 2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: refreshed ]

 

Well FOR ME, it is a seperation issue. If it looks, walks, smells, talks, dresses, sounds, or in anyway imitates the world...then it must be of the world. The Bible has a lot to say about how the world and the Christian are supposed to interact (.

When I was saved, I knew rock music was not of God, it was one of the first things I saw in my life that was not consistent with being a Christian. It was only when I let go of the rock music (all of it, "christian" included), that I realized I had been in bondage to it. I had not realized this before. It is unbelievable to me that this is even an issue in Christian circles when we consider the industry as a whole, CCM as well (drugs, sex, money, etc). Rock music is of the world. "Christian rock" is rock music. "Christian rock" is of the world. Why would any Christian want to imitate the world in anything if there are clear scriptures against it?

I realize that I am nothing, just a sinner, saved by grace, and that I will not change anyone's mind on the issue. I do, however, see emnity between God and the world, and I want to be on God's side. If I err, may it be to abstain from the appearance of evil instead of flirting around the edges (1 Thessalonians 5:2). 1 Peter 5:8. Our enemy is waiting to trip us up.

Since I don't have the ability to sway anyone on the issue, and I am firmly set in my beliefs, I don't think there is any reason to take up any more bandwidth, especially off topic!

I will say, though, that if there is someone considering the issue, they can pm me.

 

I'm a writer who is Christian. All of my writing (whether or not I mention Christ) comes from a Christian perspective. But because of the people who purchase my skills and my work, I rarely write about religious/Christian things. In fact, my day to day writing for my company looks pretty much like the writing of the nonChristians I work with. That doesn't mean my work is bad or inferior. It is morally neutral.

I am convinced that all of my work (even the "secular" stuff glorifies good -- especially the stuff that I get to do without being pressed up against a deadline.

I also participate in a local writer's group. There are a few believers in the group, but most of them do not seem to be concerned about religious things. On the occasion when I read some of my work for critique, I pay attention to the critique of my peers. They also have command of the writing craft. I look similar to the others in the group and my subject matter is often very similar to others in the group, but my perspective is always Christian. My work that is "nonreligious" and aided by non-believers also glorifies God.

I am currently working on a "coming of age" novel set on the Texas Gulf Coast. The early drafts of chapters include some harsh/crude language, sexual situations, betrayal, adultery, death, drugs, a unwed teenaged mother, and blatant displays of hypocrisy by religious people.

But it also includes works of God's grace, a small miracle of God working in the midst of the characters that can only be comprehended by those who believe, characters who are true believers living their faith, and a wave of revival working through the members of a small church in the midst of this storm.

Some may have problems with my depiction of sin, but my depiction of faith, grace and the nearness of God will be as equally strong. I am portraying the world as we often experience it in order to portray God in that same world. In a similar way, creative musicians and songwriters can use the musical forms of the world and introduce God into them thereby transforming the meaning of the form into something redemptive.

Am I making any sense here? (It's late and I'm very tired!)

 

The distinctions have been blurred. Our consciences have been seared. On a whole, Christians no longer see a need to seperate from the world despite the clear command to do so.

Read II Cor. 6:14-18 for the context of the verse listed below.

2Co:6:17: Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

This is a very clear command. Note in the previous verses, it talks about the Christian's relationship with the unbeliever. We are told "be ye seperate." Does anyone want to dispute the meaning of this statement?

For those who don't believe that seperation is an issue that God cares about, what exactly is He talking about? I have defended my posts with scripture, and I have gotten none in return. Please show me one scripture where music was used as an evangelism tool (as CCM is purportedly used). Please show me one scripture that says we should imitate, emulate, or otherwise be the same as the world. Please show me one scripture that says all music is neutral, that it's just the words! David says to sing a "new song," not the old songs of the world rehashed. I'll tell you what, hymns surely were new to me when I got saved. The difference was there. "Forget this worldly music, I don't need it" (the seperation WAS painful, however).

It's interesting that some have said, "I don't need the music either, but I just enjoy listening to it." Sounds just like cigarette smoker. It's an addiction. The real proof is if a person can give it up. I know it was like ripping away a part of me when I gave it up, but the Lord is filling that back up with his songs. I made all sorts of excuses to not get rid of my rock music (I really can't believe secular rock is not an issue either with some Christians, let alone CCM), but in the end, I had to get rid of that sin in my life.

Let me qualify everything I have said to date on this subject. These are my views, I am not your preacher. I have been delivered from wicked music (the style IS important, by the way, otherwise we wouldn't need to change the style of the church's music in order to get the teenagers in the churches).

And, finally, I am not an old person, I am 26 years old, and grew up on the classic rock, and alternative music. The reason I add this last part is that when I was researching the issue right after I was saved, the pro-CCM group was continually putting down traditional Christianity, saying that it was adverse to change (God never changes by the way), they were "sticks in the mud," and that they were legalists. So,

1. I am not adverse to change. I changed from the world's music to God's music, at a young age (22 years old) even, and the seperation was painful, and this entailed much ridicule from who I thought were my friends. "You don't listen to rock music anymore? Are you a freak or what?"

2. I am not a "stick in the mud." I wanted to be, but I changed to God's music anyway, with his grace.

3. I am not a legalist. Please be sure of that definition before you use it on anybody (not that anybody has on this board, but much outside of this board). The Bible is clear about seperation, and the only reason I am so adamant about CCM is because I don't want other young Christians to fall into the same traps I have fallen into. "I'm sorry sir, you shouldn't go further on this road, the bridge is out!"

Thank you for this invigorating discussion. This is one of the reasons I joined the board!

 

Yup, you made sense.

You are a writer after all, right?

 

Funny, I had just the opposite experience.

When I became a Christian, I got rid of all of my records, bought all of the goofy books ("Larson's Book of Rock", Fletcher Brothers, Dan and Steve Peters, "Hell's Bell's", etc.) and went to all of the seminars.

I was really into the "rock is bad" thing.

Fortunately, I learned to discern instead of just making blanket condemnations and realized that I had been in bondage to legalism.

Fortunately, there are some good books out there that gove balanced views of the contemporary music issue.

"Don't Stop the Music" by SBC pastor and former CCM icon, Dana Key, "Should Christians Wear Blue Suede Shoes", by John Fischer and, to a lesser extent, "Too Christian, Too Pagan" by Dick Staub all give good balanced views of the issue.

CCM, the industry, is just that - an industry.

It's not a ministry and shouldn't be considered one. Most of what goes on in CCM is run by mainstream companies. The Christian labels sold out long ago.

That doesn't have any bearing on the music, itself, though.

If I were a betting man, and I am, I would be willing to wager that you and most of the anti-rock crowd would be just as condemning of independant artists, so I'm not really sure why you bring Nashville into it.

You keep saying that but you haven't said why you think that.

A cheap imitation of rock music but rock music, nonetheless.

How is it "of the world" when the music, itself, is neutral, the performers are Christians, the lyrics reflect a blatantly Christian world view and, in one of the examples I gave above, the lyrics are lifted almost word for word from scripture?

Because, so far, no one has demonstrated that sharing a common musical genre is "imitating the world".

Mike

 

Because Bapist Believer says it is, of course

Let's give the guy a break, though, he was tired!

Can we start a new thread on this? I believe this started out as a survey. Oh, by the way, Preach, the Lakers have Cobe, and apparently could do well without Shaq (read the first post in this thread, this sure has been going on for awhile).

Hey, If I'm wrong about the basketball stuff, forgive me. I'm not a fan.

 

posted by refreshed:

Because Bapist Believer says it is, of course </font>[/QUOTE]The point I failed so miserably to make is that some of the roots of rock music are not from "Christian" origins (if we are going to attach those labels to musical styles), the rock forms can be redeemed by providing lyrics from a Christian viewpoint. (The language we are all posting in is not a biblical language, but our words and forms are often used of God.)

Let's give the guy a break, though, he was tired! </font>[/QUOTE]If a Christian writer can write detective stories instead of books on prayer without being considered worldly, then Christians musicians should be able to use the forms of rock music to present a Christian viewpoint without condemnation.

That's the main point I was trying to get across.

 

Hey, Baptist, don't beat yourself up, I understood your point, I just disagree. Pardon my lame joke of picking you up and beating Mike over the head with you. It was all in fun.

 

i believe in the old-fashion type hymns. songs that actually have meat on them. songs that lift the name of Jesus rather than the man singing it.the contempoary stuff wont work, it seems to fake. they country music stuff is rather dumb to me, plus we dont need to bring the world in the church in order to bring people in. God said that His word will not become void. this goes with rock music and rap and all that other junk.

 

refreshed said:

(with regards to a "christian" group who has covered Led)77's Click here Page for the album where you will find "Nobody's Fault But Mine."

Zeppelin were notorioius for claiming blues standards as their own work. In this case, "Nobody's Fault but Mine" is the creation of a gospel/blues singer named Blind Willie Johnson.

The 77s, in effect, were stealing it back.

 

Prince of Preachers said:

i believe in the old-fashion type hymns.

Not me. There's no evidence they ever existed.

plus we dont need to bring the world in the church in order to bring people in.

So I take it then that you will be giving up the use of English (invented by pagans) in your services, as well as the use of the twelve-tone scale (invented by pagans) in your music?

 

I'd be willing to bet (if I bet, which I don't) that the 77's did it in the same style as Led Zeppelin (hard rock) and in a totally different style than ol' Blind Willie (I'm guessing bluesy).

So, I guess style does matter. Blind Willie is not looked upon as evil, whereas Led Zeppelin was a good example of how not to have your children turn out. They emulated "Zep," not Blind Willie when they did the song, and did it in the same style as "Zep" so they did not "steal" the song back for ol' Willie.

Not that I have much style myself when it comes to music. I'm what they would refer to as, "rhythm deficient."

 

How'd you know? I thought the Hebrew and Greek worship services in some Indy Fundy churches was a secret! We must have an info leak, folks.

 

Not sure on the blues tune, but the bible does say to make a "joyful noise." The blues don't seem very joyful to me.

I was just guessing about the music styles, but I'll look that one up.

Didn't Johnson, himself, admit that he met the devil at the crossroads? If he did, and sold his soul, he should've held out for better music. "Hot tamales and they're red hot"? Puleeeze.

[ December 17, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Refreshed ]

 

Refreshed said:

I'd be willing to bet (if I bet, which I don't) that the 77's did it in the same style as Led Zeppelin (hard rock)

Indeed they did, and so much the better for the song.

 

I take it you don't listen to much of the Buicks, Kid Ramos, Delbert McClinton, the Treniers or any of the dozens and dozens of house blues and jump blues units out there?

Given the kinds of accusations you're making, wouldn't it be a better idea to look it up before you "guess"?

Not that I'm aware of, although I'm sure he played up the popular urban legend.