Where do we stand today?

[Tennessee Gal]

I grew up in the Hyles/ Rice camp of the independent Baptist. Many times we had Jack Hyles, and other well know pastors speak at my home church. We were taught to love and honor these men and others like them.

I graduated for a christian college and my husband graduated from a state university. After college we married and my husband earned his master's from Temple Baptist Theological Seminary and then we went into the ministry.

Over the years we became more and more concerned about the level of adoration being given to leaders in fundamental circles. As I mentioned in another post, we attended a conference in the early eighties where Jack Hyles was speaking. It took 25 minutes for him to be introduced. On the way home my husband said," Honey, they are taking glory that belongs to Christ and giving it to men.

Also over time we started questioning some of Hyles' methods.I worked with a friend who had gone on visitation and came to work the next day all pumped up that they had lead 4 people to Christ the evening before. A few weeks later I asked him had any of these people been baptized or attended church. None of them had.
I began questioning the whole " soul winning" techniques we were taught. Like controlling the conversation, leading them in a "salvation prayer" without any real conviction of sin, or the Holy Spirit's leading in the encounter .
I was in sales for a living and I can tell you Jack Hyles was the best "salesman" in the world. I wonder how many people were walking around thinking they were saved and yet there was never a real change in their lives .
When Jack Hyles fell into sin, along with David Hyles, Bob Gray and other well know preachers,where were the out cries from other well know Christian leaders in the Independents? I know from working in a large Christian ministry that many of them wanted to sweep the sin under the rug!. This is one of the reasons we left the Independents.

Lest, you think I have an ax to grind or am bitter, my husband and I continued in the pastorate until his home going , although in Southern Baptist circles. We were then and I am now as much an Independent in doctrine as we were back in our early days.

In conclusion, I loved Dr. John R. Rice, Lee Roberson and other leaders to this day. I believe what happened with Jack Hyles, and other men greatly hurt the cause of Christ and the Independent Baptist movement . How to you see it?

 

[CertainSound]

Humans will fail. It is a sin nature thing. If you had your eyes open and aware the SBC had and will have glaring bouts of hypocrisy too. I have always been sceptical of the "love my pastor" thing. My dad was a pastor and I have been one for over 30 years. I don't want my people loving me any more than they love the other brothran because that creates a papacy. We had Baptist popes and that is why the IFB movement is totally shattered.
The problem is the human nature thing. It is human nature to want to be part of a herd. Not just a herd but "the best", the biggest, the one that is the "growing" one, the one with the dynamic leader that people are drawn to. IFB doesn't have that going on now. Some are trying to go back to that but we don't have a dynamic leader. We are so fractured into groups we are nervous about the day we will "sit together in heavenly places".
Many of us don't like to be called fundamentalist because we don't want to be lumped together with Hyles and others that did unbiblical and embarrassing things.
As you can see in discussions about doctrine and church policies on this board many people are wrestling with things that were taught as doctrine that they found out later weren't correct. Others here are strongly opinionated that they are right to the point they appear to think all things should flow from them.
"Where do we stand today?" The IFB took a spanking we deserved. Not everyone has learned the lesson from the chastening. Some still think evangelism should be done the same old Hyles/Finney way. Others have jumped ship from the old salesmanship methods to new salesmanship methods. As for me...I want Jesus to come back and put an end to this mess we have created.

 

[Tennessee Gal]

Dear Pastor,
Thank you for your well thought out response. I agree with what you have said.
Just for the record, we were well aware of the short comings of the Southern Baptists. We were just so tired of dealing with the "Pope syndrome" and those who claimed fidelity to the Word of God yet were willing to hide Hyles' and other preacher's sin. I do realize out of fairness that there were pastor's that may have not known the full extent of the cover up. I also think as you do many don't like to be called fundamentalist because of what has happened has given the term a bad name.

What prompted me to start this thread was I returned to my home state after my husband's home going after being 42 years in TN. In my home state the Independent Baptist are very prevalent. I have been looking for a new home church and I struggle with the idea of going back into an Independent Baptist church.
I realize I am in a different place now than I was as a young person and in our early years of ministry. I have the discernment to see through
through things like putting pastors on pedestals, allowing leadership to have control over our personal lives, etc.
Also for the record, I pray for pastors and believe in showing respect for their God given positions until they prove otherwise .

I am also longing for the Lord's return.

 

[Salty]

TG- You have brought up some excellent points
My goodness 25 minutes to introduce someone???

Yes, we should respect our pastors - but we have to be careful that
we do not idolize him either.

One reason, I want folks to have their Bible when I preach - is that I
want the to know what the Bible is teaching -
From time to time, I will purposely misread a verse - which can have a major difference
of meaning. Then Immediately, I will state - "Oh, I'm sorry, I was reading out of the Pastor
Salty Version"!! Its not what I say or believe - its what the Bible teaches. I have changed some of my
doctrine over the years - but it was thru study and careful consideration.

Once again, thanks for a great post.

Salty

PS I know that John of Japan would definitely appreciate the kind words you had to say about John R. Rice!

 

[rlvaughn]

...What prompted me to start this thread was I returned to my home state after my husband's home going after being 42 years in TN. In my home state the Independent Baptist are very prevalent. I have been looking for a new home church and I struggle with the idea of going back into an Independent Baptist church.
I realize I am in a different place now than I was as a young person and in our early years of ministry. I have the discernment to see through things like putting pastors on pedestals, allowing leadership to have control over our personal lives, etc.

One thing that is good (and bad) about independents (unaffiliated) Baptists is that they are independent. An independent Baptist might come in many flavors, from extremely hard-line separatist fundamentalist to nearly charismatic. Our church is independent (not affiliated with any association or fellowship) and believe the fundamentals of the faith, but we have walked in different paths from the more "Hyles-Rice" type of independents (and we also respect Rice but not Hyles). Just saying that to say don't let the bad experience scare you away from a possible good church. You seem to have the discernment to see through the preacher-worship and such like that is too often found in some of them.

 

[John of Japan]

I just saw this. Sorry to be late to the fellowship. I'll post more tomorrow, but for now I'll just say that there are over 10,000 independent Baptist Churches in the US alone, and many different groups and fellowships. And I do appreciate the kind words about my beloved grandfather, John R. Rice.

 

[Salty]

One thing that is good (and bad) about independents (unaffiliated) Baptists is that they are independent. ...

You can be independent and still be affiliated!!!

We are affiliated with local, State, and National groups. - yet we are independent - those groups do not tell us what we can or cannot do. What binds us together as a Rope of Sand is that we share common beliefs.

 

[TCassidy]

But there are also churches that are not affiliated with any convention, fellowship, association, conference, etc.

Some independents are unaffiliated some are not.

 

[HankD]

I was an assistant pastor to a KJVO Baptist church in New England a few decades ago.
We ended up cutting all ties apart from a loose one with the IFCA.
We were for the most part exclusionists along with a handful of likeminded churches with whom we would fellowship.

I will occasionally look at their website - not much has changed since those days.

I do miss the spirited camaraderie.

HankD

 

[rlvaughn]

You can be independent and still be affiliated!!!

We are affiliated with local, State, and National groups. - yet we are independent - those groups do not tell us what we can or cannot do. What binds us together as a Rope of Sand is that we share common beliefs.

Salty, I don't disagree. My point is not to argue about whether affiliated churches are not independent, but trying to be clear in answering Tennessee Gal that I am talking about independent churches that are not affiliated with any association, conference, convention or fellowship. She is not (if I understand correctly) looking for a debate on church autonomy but the current status of churches that might be designated the "Independent Baptist movement". I never can tell what terms might not suit someone. It's hard when "independent" has a fluidity when talking about Baptist churches.

Hope this helps!

 

[John of Japan]

I grew up in the Hyles/ Rice camp of the independent Baptist. Many times we had Jack Hyles, and other well know pastors speak at my home church. We were taught to love and honor these men and others like them.

I graduated for a christian college and my husband graduated from a state university. After college we married and my husband earned his master's from Temple Baptist Theological Seminary and then we went into the ministry.

What years were you guys there? I graduated from Tenn. Temple in 1976, then spent a semester in the seminary. I attended the seminary in 1986 on our first furlough from Japan, where we spent 33 years. I'm sure we know many of the same people.

Over the years we became more and more concerned about the level of adoration being given to leaders in fundamental circles. As I mentioned in another post, we attended a conference in the early eighties where Jack Hyles was speaking. It took 25 minutes for him to be introduced. On the way home my husband said," Honey, they are taking glory that belongs to Christ and giving it to men.

This was definitely a problem in fundamental circles in those days. I really don't think it's that much of a problem nowadays. I believe the independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) movement has greatly matured since then.

Also over time we started questioning some of Hyles' methods.I worked with a friend who had gone on visitation and came to work the next day all pumped up that they had lead 4 people to Christ the evening before. A few weeks later I asked him had any of these people been baptized or attended church. None of them had.
I began questioning the whole " soul winning" techniques we were taught. Like controlling the conversation, leading them in a "salvation prayer" without any real conviction of sin, or the Holy Spirit's leading in the encounter .
I was in sales for a living and I can tell you Jack Hyles was the best "salesman" in the world. I wonder how many people were walking around thinking they were saved and yet there was never a real change in their lives .

I agree that there was manipulation going on in that methodology, and I began to question it myself, changing my approach in Japan. However, I will say that the Romans Road does give the complete Gospel, and that is something to be thankful for, even if motive and/or methods were wrong (Phil. 1:18).

Where I changed my theology from that taught by JRR (my grandfather) is that I believe the primary task for a Christian is not soul-winning but glorifying God (which soul-winning, answers to prayer, testimony, etc. does).

When Jack Hyles fell into sin, along with David Hyles, Bob Gray and other well know preachers,where were the out cries from other well know Christian leaders in the Independents? I know from working in a large Christian ministry that many of them wanted to sweep the sin under the rug!. This is one of the reasons we left the Independents.

There were many fundamentalist leaders who did not sweep things under the rug, which is why I am still a fundamentalist. I was mentored by men like that: Monroe Parker, Fred Moritz, and the other good men at Baptist World Mission (BWM). Ed Nelson and Wayne Van Gelderen Sr. helped my wife and I get together (incurable match-makers). And there were others.

By the way, I've heard preach and met the new pastor of FBC of Hammond, and he's a low-key, sincere man of God, nothing at all like Hyles and his bombastic style.

Lest, you think I have an ax to grind or am bitter, my husband and I continued in the pastorate until his home going , although in Southern Baptist circles. We were then and I am now as much an Independent in doctrine as we were back in our early days.

Praise the Lord.

In conclusion, I loved Dr. John R. Rice, Lee Roberson and other leaders to this day. I believe what happened with Jack Hyles, and other men greatly hurt the cause of Christ and the Independent Baptist movement . How to you see it?

Yes, those incidents hurt the cause of Christ and the ind. Bapt. movement, but not permanently. According to Church Still Works, by Paul Chappell and Clayton Reed (2009), there were 13,719 ind. Bapt. churches in 2008 (p. 15), and we sent out 4,876 overseas missionaries, compared to only 3898 SBC missionaries (p. 30).

This is where the IFB movement has matured the most: missions. Last week I was at a conference for IFB Bible translators, and it was very encouraging. I also fellowshipped again with two brilliant young men, graduates of Baptist Bible Translators Institute in TX, who are working on translation in limited access countries.

Also, there are some fairly new and exciting IFB colleges: West Coast, Crown, Baptist College of Ministry. Last week I got to know a young pastor who graduated from Crown, and was very impressed at his preaching and love for the Lord.

 

[rlvaughn]

According to Church Still Works, by Paul Chappell and Clayton Reed (2009), there were 13,719 ind. Bapt. churches in 2008 (p. 15), and we sent out 4,876 overseas missionaries, compared to only 3898 SBC missionaries (p. 30).

Hoping not to detract too much from Tennessee Gal's post and question, but...

John, do you know what criteria Chappell and Reed used for identifying Independent Baptists, and how they gathered their data?

Thanks!

 

[John of Japan]

Hoping not to detract too much from Tennessee Gal's post and question, but...

John, do you know what criteria Chappell and Reed used for identifying Independent Baptists, and how they gathered their data?

Thanks!

They partnered with "a well-known Christian research organization" (p. xiv) to develop a survey, then "mailed the survey to 13,719 independent Baptist churches (p. xv), receiving 550 "qualified responses." They rejected other responses which were incomplete. The research organization then analyzed the results and produced about 90 pages of "graphs, information and observation" for Chappell and Reed (ibid).

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks again. Would you recommend the book?

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks again. Would you recommend the book?

Yes I would. It's invaluable in finding out where the IFB movement is today.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks, got it ordered.

Tennessee Gal, sorry for the somewhat off-topic distraction.

 

[rlvaughn]

According to Church Still Works, by Paul Chappell and Clayton Reed (2009), there were 13,719 ind. Bapt. churches in 2008 (p. 15), and we sent out 4,876 overseas missionaries, compared to only 3898 SBC missionaries (p. 30).

I got this book in the mail yesterday. I've only looked at the front material. I realize their purpose is not primarily statistics, but I was disappointed that there is no clearer explanation of what comprises an independent Baptist church and what criteria they used to determine these 13,719 churches were independent Baptist. I would love to see more information on this. Perhaps some info will be scattered through the book as I read it. I can add that there would have been 13,720 churches in 2008, because our church did not get a survey from them.

 

[John of Japan]

I got this book in the mail yesterday. I've only looked at the front material. I realize their purpose is not primarily statistics, but I was disappointed that there is no clearer explanation of what comprises an independent Baptist church and what criteria they used to determine these 13,719 churches were independent Baptist. I would love to see more information on this. Perhaps some info will be scattered through the book as I read it. I can add that there would have been 13,720 churches in 2008, because our church did not get a survey from them.

Right, the survey was by no means complete. After all, we are independent Baptists. Another area where it is incomplete is in the number of foreign missionaries we have sent out. There are many missionaries out there nowadays who are sent either strictly by their local church, or by a small mission board started by a local church. I know of five such couples on the island of Hokkaido, where we evangelized. That is actually more than the number of missionaries sent out by the traditional boards!

 

[rlvaughn]

Right, the survey was by no means complete. After all, we are independent Baptists.

Right. That is one reason I was interested in "which" independent Baptists were surveyed.

Another area where it is incomplete is in the number of foreign missionaries we have sent out. There are many missionaries out there nowadays who are sent either strictly by their local church, or by a small mission board started by a local church. I know of five such couples on the island of Hokkaido, where we evangelized. That is actually more than the number of missionaries sent out by the traditional boards!

The missionaries we support are local church missionaries, no boards or sending-agencies involved. I'm sure one of those we support would not be included. He is sent out by a local independent missionary Baptist church hid in the backwoods of East Texas. Although the missionary is more widely known, it is likely that if you are not also in the backwoods of East Texas or one of this missionary's supporting churches, you would not know about this church either. That brings us to 13,721 churches and at least one more missionary.

 

[John of Japan]

Right. That is one reason I was interested in "which" independent Baptists were surveyed. The missionaries we support are local church missionaries, no boards or sending-agencies involved. I'm sure one of those we support would not be included. He is sent out by a local independent missionary Baptist church hid in the backwoods of East Texas. Although the missionary is more widely known, it is likely that if you are not also in the backwoods of East Texas or one of this missionary's supporting churches, you would not know about this church either. That brings us to 13,721 churches and at least one more missionary.

Fortunately, God has it all figured out, amen?