And us non-Cals could say the same about you.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Where does believing faith come from part 2
- Thread starter Benefactor
- Start date
- Status
And us non-Cals could say the same about you.
Question.....The OP asks where does "believing faith" come from? What other kind of faith is there besides "believing" faith? Unbelieving faith? That wouldn't be faith at all would it?
You either have faith (in anything or anyone) or you don't. Faith means believing. You can't have without believing, so "believing faith" doesn't make sense to me.
You either have faith (in anything or anyone) or you don't. Faith means believing. You can't have without believing, so "believing faith" doesn't make sense to me.
I think it is in reference to a saving faith
Amy, that is a great question. According to the Calvinists here (they will say I am mistaken and do not understand them afterwards), a person must be regenerated to have faith. Now what does that mean? How can you have faith without an object of faith?
And this is what bothers me most about this doctrine. It is not faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that is foremost and primary to a Calvinist. No, it becomes secondary. Because first and foremost, they must be regenerated. They cannot possibly believe the gospel unless they have been regenerated to believe.
Most Calvinists will say Jesus did not die for the non-elect. And if their doctrine is true, this would be correct. For the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is absolutely meaningless unless you have been regenerated, if their doctrine be true.
So, they trust in regeneration, not the gospel.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman you are just showing your ignorance of the Biblical Doctrines of Grace, the doctrine of the Southern Baptist Convention when it was founded! I have posted the following before but they are pertinent to this discussion.
When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:
I. The Scriptures
The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.
II. God
There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.
III. The Trinity
God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.
IV. Providence
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.
V. Election
Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life—not because of foreseen merit in them, but of His mere mercy in Christ—in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
VI. The Fall of Man
God originally created Man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.
VII. The Mediator
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law; suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.
VIII. Regeneration
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.
IX. Repentance
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.
X. Faith
Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.
XI. Justification
Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.
XII. Sanctification
Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ’s commands.
XIII. Perseverance of the Saints
Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
XIV. The Church
The Lord Jesus is the head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which He hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.
XV. Baptism
Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of Abstract of Principles giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord’s Supper.
XVI. The Lord’s Supper
The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.
XVII. The Lord’s Day
The Lord’s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.
XVIII. Liberty of Conscience
God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
XIX. The Resurrection
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.
XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life
This Abstracxt of Principles was apparently signed and ignored for many years but under the leadership of Albert Mohler, president of the Seminary, they are being enforced again.
Last edited by a moderator:
Why is it necessary to believe that Jesus "died for" someone whom He knows will never believe and receive the benefit of the actual atonement? It simply becomes a tautology. Even a free willer can believe in "particular redemption." A free willer can believe that the full intent of the atonement is to save all believers. That makes sense in actuality. Why would the intention of the atonement be to save every individual person, if God in His foreknowledge knows that this has not, cannot, and will never happen? Why would God intend to do something that He "could not" fulfill. Why would the Scriptures even mention an "elect" if the intention of the atonement was to do something that could not be done? That idea seems to make God at odds with Himself.
In other words: "For God loved the world in this manner--that He gave His unique Son--for the purpose that all the ones believing into him should not perish but rather have everlasting life."
The reason for the giving of the Son is so that the believing ones would not perish but rather have eternal life. This is "particular redemption."
Who are "his people"? Why is there even a "his people"? If the intention of the atonement is to save every single person, why would this verse even say such a thing? Sounds like "particular redemption."
To the free willer, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is absolutely meaningless because it has no real power in itself to atone substitutionarily for anyone. It is a symbolic gesture that does nothing to anyone without his own two cents. It had the hypothetical possibility of being an act in vain with no atoned individuals.
Silly willy. Regeneration is part of the gospel (Rom 8:1-9). Regeneration is what God uses to make people who are present for a gospel presentation recipients of the gospel and of His substitutionary atonement.
When the atonement was made once a year for the nation of Israel, was every single Israelite saved? Will we see every single Israelite in heaven someday? Well, we know not all of them will be. Think of Judas. He was an Israelite. Atonement was made on his behalf just as it was for the other disciples, but Judas is in hell. Does that mean that the atonement made on their behalf was ineffectual?
Well, that's certainly a nice paraphrase to prove your doctrine.
If you do a word study on the word "world" you will find that it almost always refers to sinners or the sinful world "system".
You are taking this out of context. "His people" were the Jews. "He came to His own (the Jews) but they received Him not." When the Jews rejected Him, the gospel was taken to the Gentiles.
That is ridiculous! No "free willer" believes that. The atonement was a necessary part of redemption because "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." But nowhere in scripture will you find salvation apart from faith. Jesus was our substitute so that we could come to God in faith. Salvation required both a payment for sin and faith in the One who paid for it.
Huh?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is not those whom you call Calvinist that make regeneration essential. It is Jesus Christ Himself. Simply note what He said in John 3:3:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Now how does Jesus Christ say that this New Birth, or Regeneration is accomplished?
John 3:4-8
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Notice that this New Birth is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. Nothing is said about the requirement of prior faith.
Winman you can deny this truth all you want to but that will not change it. Fortunately it will not affect your salvation. However, why not magnify the Grace of God by giving Him all the Glory for your salvation.
The annual atonement in Israel was NOT a salvific atonement, and it did "cleanse" every Israelite from his sin that year (Lev 16:17,29-30).
If atonement is to cleanse away sins and one is paying for his own sins, then was the atonement really "effectual" for that person? Atonement (Strongs H3722, H3725, G2643) means that the one atoned is actually free from his liability. He has been pardoned.
Where does the Bible ever say that someone is atoned for without actually receiving the benefits of it? Is atonement just some symbolic gesture that does nothing in itself and requires an outside contribution to make it work?
This passage says that the death of the Son reconciles, and the blood of Christ justifies. These statements are on behalf of those who come to God in faith and now have peace therewith. How can one read such strong and definitive statements and not see that the atonement and reconciliation of Christ's death and shed blood on the Cross is actually effectual in bringing about the faith, justification, and peace of those for whom it was made?
My "paraphrase" is based upon the actual Greek words in John 3:16. Look them up yourself. The verse says that the manner in which God loved the world is expressed in that He gave His unique Son, and the reason for giving the Son was so that all the ones believing into him would not perish but rather have everlasting life. The reason for the giving was to save all believers. This verse says nothing positive or negative about the ability to believe, only that the purpose of the giving is to save all believers. If you want a verse for who "can" believe, you have to look elsewhere.
The word world (kosmos) has approximately 14 different connotations in John's writings alone.
Let's see. We now have a conundrum. What does the verse say? It says that He SHALL SAVE (not "attempt to save") HIS PEOPLE from their sins. If "his people" here means only Jews (and every individual in the nation of Israel), then you are saying that the angel of God lied or was misinformed. If "his people" here means every individual in the nation of Israel then this verse is a lie or a failure on God's part.
Let's look at some other Scriptures for context:
Since the prophesy already existed during this time about "a remnant" of Israel would be saved and God would call people of the Gentiles "his people," then the only valid definition for "his people" that maintains the integrity of God and fulfills His prophecy is the remnant of Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.
I, nor anyone I have seen here, has ever suggested that. Faith is a result of God's atonement for His people. Those for whom God atoned He teaches, draws, gives to the Son, and they come to Him and believe (John 6).
A substitute takes the place of someone else. If Jesus is someone's substitute, He pays his sin debt and the one is completely free from the penalty.
True, but the atonement effectuated both.
Last edited by a moderator:
Then it is apparent you don't understand what 'atonement' means. If the OT Atonment was not salvic then neither was Christ's Atonement since he fulfilled the Law regarding the Atonement.
See, you miss what is going on. He is not paying for his sins himself but is bringing a 'substitute' - one that shall take his place.
However you are correct that when a person has the atonement applied to them, they are pardoned. But the making of the atonement in and of itself does nothing as it must be received by faith. Only then, by faith, that the propitiation/atonement is applied and pardon issued. (Rom 3:25)
No one is scripture is atoned for without them first receiving it by faith. The propitiation or atonement is not and never has been given prior to faith but is given through/by faith. Only then does a person receive those benifits of the propitiation that was made for sin on behalf of all - as the Law required.
Because those statement declared definitively that those who have had these things done to them (justified, and reconsiled) have come into being through faith. IOW - To the one who has believe they have been justified and they are reconciled to God, both of which come through Christ's propitiation. These are about what has transpired after the fact, and in context, not trying to get people to believe.
Amy was speaking about the term 'world' which in this case refers to ALL sinners - world. God showed His love toward 'all sinners' in this manner...
Exactly - world means - all sinful and unrighteous mankind.
And therefore the giving of His Son was 'for' the world - all sinful and unrighteous mankind - that whoever (of this group) would believe would have everlasting life.
This is true
However the giving was 'for' ALL mankind who were sinful and unrighteous, that of this group - whoever would believe would be saved.
No, not really. Those who are sinful and unrighteous are who the giving was for, and of that group, whoever would believe would be saved. Thus the ability 'is' spoken of indirectly but the purpose of the statement is about for whom Christ was given and what happens to those who receive that gift.
It was for all sinners that they might be saved through faith.
Nope. John's writing speak of about 4 basic aspects of the term world and in those there 'can' be seen other variations that relate to the original 4. Of those however only one can be contextually relevent here and that one is the one refering to all sinful and unrighteous mankind.
For a good gist of how John consistantly uses the meaning of 'world' in relation to man, just look up how John uses the term 'whole world' consistantly in each of his works. The term 'world' here in John 3:16 refers to all mankind what God gave His Son for, and then distinquishes how He and salvation are received - by faith. Just because Christ was given for them all does not mean all will receive Him but to those who receive Him to them they will be given life.
There is one defintion however that some like to 'clain' is implied but the fact is it is an illigitimate defintion with no substance, That defintion is where the term 'world' can also mean only the saved.
See this is where you find theology driving interpretation instead of scripture driving interpretation. The passage is refering to OT prophesy refer to Isreal primarily and the world secondarily, though the secondarily is not seen in these passages but others (OT on this prophesy nor this verse). Saving His people does not mean evey single person, not even close. It refers to His 'people' the group. So there is no conundrum at all except if one comes to the passage with a presupposition. The angel didn't lie but in fact spoke the truth Jesus will save His people from their sins as He is the True Sacrifice of Atonement. Paul even emphasizes this a little more in Rom 11 when he also quotes another OT prophesy saying that all Israel shall be saved. This passage does not mean every single Israeli that has ever been but the OT passage refers to those alive at that time. Which means many just might die and those left will believe that Jesus is the true promised Messiah. In in any case, none dieing or the remnant left - all of Isreal (the Nation) will be saved. Jesus will save His people (Jews) from their sins.
No, that is not the only valid definition. Context determines what is being spoken of NOT theology.
Again, context is not determined by some other scripture else where, but by those passages that surround the passage in question. And if that passage is refering 'back' to something else then the context of 'that' passage(s) also has great bearing on the context being spoken of. Your theology is driving your interpretation of passages rather than vise-versa. (IMO)
You bet! But that substitute has to be accepted/received by the one thats place was taken. A person can choose to accept or reject the offered substitute.
BaptistBob
New Member
I guess AresMan would say that the government did not provide Social Security for the elderly unless they accept it.
Hmmm... Good point/example :thumbs:
Last edited by a moderator:
Great post Allan, yes Jesus died for all men, but you must receive this free gift by faith.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1 speaks of false prophets and teachers who shall bring in "damnable heresies", so they are absolutely lost people. Then it says they will deny the Lord who "bought them", showing that Jesus died for all men including the lost.
I think it significant that many Calvinists do indeed deny that Jesus died for the non-elect. They are fulfilling this scripture.
In fact, if Calvinism is true, then Jesus did not die for sinners. Because if a man is first regenerated before he can believe on Christ, he is no longer a lost sinner when he believes. He has been given a new nature, a new birth according to what many Calvinists claim (they do not all agree among themselves). So they are not lost sinners when they believe, and they do not believe Jesus died for the non-elect. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice does not apply to sinners whatsoever by this reasoning, it only applies to those who have been regenerated and are no longer sinners having received a new nature from God.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1 speaks of false prophets and teachers who shall bring in "damnable heresies", so they are absolutely lost people. Then it says they will deny the Lord who "bought them", showing that Jesus died for all men including the lost.
I think it significant that many Calvinists do indeed deny that Jesus died for the non-elect. They are fulfilling this scripture.
In fact, if Calvinism is true, then Jesus did not die for sinners. Because if a man is first regenerated before he can believe on Christ, he is no longer a lost sinner when he believes. He has been given a new nature, a new birth according to what many Calvinists claim (they do not all agree among themselves). So they are not lost sinners when they believe, and they do not believe Jesus died for the non-elect. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice does not apply to sinners whatsoever by this reasoning, it only applies to those who have been regenerated and are no longer sinners having received a new nature from God.
Last edited by a moderator:
Actually brother, according to their view Jesus did in fact die for sinners (though a select grouping of sinners) and if it were not for Jesus death 'for them' they could never be imparted with the new nature purchased for them and the new birth that comes with it. This is their view and how Christ died for sinners. His death prepared and set up all that was necessary to bring them to faith.
I think it would be a little harder to ascert this view, pre-death (OT) but I haven't delved that far into the view past the general regarding their view of regeneration in the OT. Now the NT I have done alot of research and work so I will let them speak for how it operated in the OT. - I 'think' it has to do with Christ's death from eternity being known. However for me this adds to teh problem since by that logic all people are also born saved - but that is something for another thread, this one has enough to deal with
Actually brother, according to their view Jesus did in fact die for sinners (though a select grouping of sinners) and if it were not for Jesus death 'for them' they could never be imparted with the new nature purchased for them and the new birth that comes with it. This is their view and how Christ died for sinners. His death prepared and set up all that was necessary to bring them to faith.
I think it would be a little harder to ascert this view, pre-death (OT) but I haven't delved that far into the view past the general regarding their view of regeneration in the OT. Now the NT I have done alot of research and work so I will let them speak for how it operated in the OT. - I 'think' it has to do with Christ's death from eternity being known. However for me this adds to teh problem since by that logic all people are also born saved - but that is something for another thread, this one has enough to deal with
Well, look at this statement Old Regular made in his last post.
So, as you see, he believes you have to receive the new nature before you can believe. And he does not see faith as a requirement to being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. If you have already received the Holy Spirit and the new nature that comes with it, you no longer require Christ's sacrifice to save you. You are already saved. This makes the sacrifice of Christ moot, as they also do not believe he died for the non-elect.
Last edited by a moderator:
I understand what you are saying but don't lump all Cal's and Reformed into one group. There are just as many various Cal groups as there are Baptists
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
You deliberately mischaracterize my posts to the point that you are accusing me of heresy. I take strong exception to that and simply say that by doing so you are guilty of lying. I posted earlier the Abstract of Principles of the Southern [Baptist] Seminary. These Principles are a summary of what I believe. I suggest you read them, paying particular attention to Principle VII, and then apologize for accusing me of heresy.
When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:
I. The Scriptures
The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.
II. God
There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.
III. The Trinity
God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.
IV. Providence
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.
V. Election
Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life—not because of foreseen merit in them, but of His mere mercy in Christ—in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
VI. The Fall of Man
God originally created Man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.
VII. The Mediator
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law; suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.
VIII. Regeneration
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.
IX. Repentance
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.
X. Faith
Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.
XI. Justification
Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.
XII. Sanctification
Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ’s commands.
XIII. Perseverance of the Saints
Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
XIV. The Church
The Lord Jesus is the head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which He hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.
XV. Baptism
Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of Abstract of Principles giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord’s Supper.
XVI. The Lord’s Supper
The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.
XVII. The Lord’s Day
The Lord’s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.
XVIII. Liberty of Conscience
God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
XIX. The Resurrection
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.
XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.
I understand what you are saying but don't lump all Cal's and Reformed into one group. There are just as many various Cal groups as there are Baptists
Yes, I realize this. And this is one of the problems when trying to discuss these issues with Calvinists. Everytime you try to pin them down they say we do not fully understand Calvinism. But they do not all agree with each other.
For instance, Havensdad has a different view from OR (and he does not call himself a Calvinist). Here is what he said.
So, if I understand him correctly, the unsaved man is unable to hear and understand the gospel. He has no inclination to even listen to it as he is a slave of sin.
But then God regenerates him. He now has the desire to hear the gospel, and the ability to believe. But, according to Havensdad, he is not yet saved, as he must now hear and believe the gospel.
So, for him it is a two-step process, even though I don't see that in scripture. And he also says a man is born again, but is yet in sins, not yet having believed the gospel.
Now, that is a fascinating view. How can you be born again and still be a sinner?
Old Regular
I simply commented on your very words. You said:
Now, maybe I misunderstand you, but you seem to be saying that a man is regenerated and born again (you said New Birth), and that this is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. You also pointed out that nothing is mentioned about the requirement of prior faith (this applies to John 3).
Now, I am just asking. If you are born again or regenerated through no action on your own, and you are given the Holy Spirit and the new nature that comes with it, then why do you now have to trust on the sacrifice of Christ? You are already spiritually alive, you already have everlasting life, you already have the Holy Spirit.
And even if a person regenerated by God like this must still trust on Christ, it becomes secondary in importance. For what is truly important and primary is that God elected you before time. If God did not elect you before time, he is never going to regenerate you, and the sacrifice of Christ cannot save you.
So, this places the Election of God as being more important than the sacrifice of Christ. For if you are not first elected, the cross is meaningless for you.
I simply commented on your very words. You said:
Now, maybe I misunderstand you, but you seem to be saying that a man is regenerated and born again (you said New Birth), and that this is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. You also pointed out that nothing is mentioned about the requirement of prior faith (this applies to John 3).
Now, I am just asking. If you are born again or regenerated through no action on your own, and you are given the Holy Spirit and the new nature that comes with it, then why do you now have to trust on the sacrifice of Christ? You are already spiritually alive, you already have everlasting life, you already have the Holy Spirit.
And even if a person regenerated by God like this must still trust on Christ, it becomes secondary in importance. For what is truly important and primary is that God elected you before time. If God did not elect you before time, he is never going to regenerate you, and the sacrifice of Christ cannot save you.
So, this places the Election of God as being more important than the sacrifice of Christ. For if you are not first elected, the cross is meaningless for you.
- Status