OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I thought calling someone a liar was contrary to Forum rules Mr. Moderator or do you get special privileges? I posted the link unless you don't read!
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1031.htm
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Where does believing faith come from part 4
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I thought calling someone a liar was contrary to Forum rules Mr. Moderator or do you get special privileges? I posted the link unless you don't read!
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1031.htm
I have no idea what you are talking about. Where did I call you a liar?
Your link is to Spurgeon, not to anything I said. What are you talking about?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Mr. Moderator, I object!
Despite disagreeing with most, if not all, of your interpretation, I would like to point out that you have misrepresented Calvinists in your above statement.
Missions and calling on people to commit their lives to Christ does not go against all that Calvinism teaches. Calvinists gladly call on people to make a decision to repent and believe.
William Carey, for instance, was a 5-Pointer and is highly hailed as "the founder of the modern missionary movement." Not to mention the society that sent him were all particular baptists (Calvinists).
Blessings,
The Archangel
Benefactor
New Member
Follow up on a number of post
First, the mention of measure of faith and other similar passages address the saved not the lost, as it can be noticed in the context.
Second, believing faith must be present to receive salvation and believing faith is before conversion.
The gifts spoken of in I Cor. are spiritual gifts. Believing faith is never called a spiritual gift. The particular Greek word is not doron it is charismata
First, the mention of measure of faith and other similar passages address the saved not the lost, as it can be noticed in the context.
Second, believing faith must be present to receive salvation and believing faith is before conversion.
The gifts spoken of in I Cor. are spiritual gifts. Believing faith is never called a spiritual gift. The particular Greek word is not doron it is charismata
Almost all the members in the hyper-Calvinistic church of Carey were against the going of Carey to India. After all India didn't need Carey. God would save those heathen in his own good time, in his own way, and without the good intentions of Mr. William Carey!!
If regeneration precedes faith, then that makes the simple exposition of Romans 10 very difficult.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I agree!
Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Your information is wrong.
Even so, Carey was, himself, a 5-Pointer and he still went--and believed strongly in going. But, and this is troubling to me, you have blown-off my statement that Calvinists do not agree with you statement that missions work is against the teaching of Calvinism. That statement is blatantly false and a misrepresentation of our position. I would expect better from a moderator who has been quite fair in the past.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Benefactor
New Member
OR, there is just no hope for you. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, so that say. Trying to get you to see the light is like :BangHead:
Your version of things is like saying water is not wet :laugh:
Here are two questions:
1. Does God in His infinite knowledge and desire for people to get saved have anything at all to do with their "choice" to believe in Him?
2. Is question #1 a trick question?
:1_grouphug:
1. Does God in His infinite knowledge and desire for people to get saved have anything at all to do with their "choice" to believe in Him?
2. Is question #1 a trick question?
:1_grouphug:
There are as many variations of Calvinists as there are as Baptists.
There are Calvinists who allow their Calvinism to hinder their evangelism. Some of those were around in Carey's time, and I would suppose that some may still be on this board today. But that's a guess.
Before we married my wife was a Bible Presbyterian, who compared to the others are very evangelistic and far more fundamental in their stand for the Word.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
1. After he regenerates His elect He gives them the gift of faith whereby they can respond affirmatively to the Gospel!
2. It depends!
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Certainly there are different flavors of Baptists, Presbyterians, and Calvinists. My point is that what we call Calvinism is most decidedly not Hyper-Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism is best defined (to must of us Regular Calvinists) as sitting at home and letting God do the missions work for us--which we Regular Calvinists see as a clear violation of scripture.
Many prominent Calvinists today (myself included...though I am not prominent) like Al Mohler, R.C. Sproul, Mark Dever, John Piper, etc... all believe very strongly in missions and evangelism and they all engage in it personally and lead their institutions or churches to do the same.
Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism are not the same thing, so please don't throw us all in the same boat.
Blessings,
The Archangel
When OR gives an answer like this:
"1. After he regenerates His elect He gives them the gift of faith whereby they can respond affirmatively to the Gospel!"
Why evangelize? God must regenerate first. Without God regenerating the heart (without which man cannot have faith), then there is no hope. One might as well stop evangelizing. Or so it seems.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The two Apostles in the New Testament who wrote the most about the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation, Paul and John, were probably the greatest evangelizers!
You correctly quote me: "1. After he regenerates His elect He gives them the gift of faith whereby they can respond affirmatively to the Gospel!"
Did I say they believed without hearing? Did I really say that?
You said they could be regenerated without believing, for believing could only come from God.
Benefactor
New Member
Book, Chapter, Verse please that supports your view.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have given Book, Chapter, and Verse several times. If you don't know them yet then you can search this Forum.
So God alone knows the elect.
Those elect are regenerated by God without putting their faith in Christ.
They must be regenerated first, because before they can be given faith by God in order to believe and be saved, they need to be regenerated.
Do I understand you correctly?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
DHK,
I understand OldRegular's statement and I agree with it completely.
I do not, however, agree with your statement, though I understand your questions.
Why evangelize? Because the evangelism effort by man is the means by which God has chosen to save His elect. In other words, God has given no other means by which men can come to know the Gospel--except, that is, for Christians sharing the Gospel.
So, Christians are to indiscriminately share the Gospel with everyone trusting that God will save some through our preaching/evangelism. Why? because God has commanded it and without it no one will be saved.
God regenerates some so that they are receptive to the Gospel preached by witnessing Christians.
There is a misunderstanding on the part of some Arminian-types (and I think I see it in your statement) that regeneration and salvation are the same thing. We say no, they are not. Regeneration necessarily leads to salvation, but it is not salvation, per se.
Salvation follows regeneration and it is evidence that regeneration has occurred.
Blessings,
The Archangel
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