Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[OldRegular]

It DOES NOT say they "must be drawn in order to come". This statement is not conditional. It says that the ones who are drug by the father, will be raised. "Kai" cannot mean "Some".

I posted the following Scripture earlier. Looks pretty clear to me. When does draw [or drug by the Father] become given by the Father?

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[AresMan]

The "all people groups" has a qualifier...men.

The men there is in italics. It only says "all" (παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον = all will draw unto myself). Could vv. 19-21 determine the context of what Jesus was saying?

Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Joh 12:20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
Joh 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

Could not the "all" in v.32 mean Jews and Gentiles? Could not it mean people from every kindred, tongue, and nation?

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

What does redemption entail? Did Jesus take His blood to the craps table and ask, "What can ya give me for this?"

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Did the devil show Jesus every individual kingdom around the entire globe, or just those that they could see up to the horizon? That must have been some mountain that could allow the viewer to see kingdoms on the other side of the globe. That would defy geometry as well.

Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Did every individual in Syria know about Jesus, or is it referring to the geographic scope covered in general that no region in Syria did not have someone who heard about Him? Did every single ailed person arrive there, no exceptions? Every ailed person had someone to take him to Jesus?

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Did Luke actually specify exactly every little thing that Jesus did and teach until His ascension in his gospel? We know that is not true because other gospel accounts give deeds and lessons from Jesus that Luke did not include. All here would mean that Luke's summary covered the scope of Jesus' life, not every nitty gritty detail.

Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Did every single Old Testament prophet prophesy about Christ's suffering, or was this a general statement? We do not have record of everything that all the prophets ever said, but is it necessary to assume that every single one indeed did?

Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Did this mean every individual who ever existed, exists, and will exist? Did this mean every individual who was there? What determines the context of "all" here?

 

[Havensdad]

Again, Havensdad, you're dealing with thinking along the line of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" or "can God create a rock so big that he can't move it".

Not at all. That God has free will, is a statement of scriptural fact.

 

[Benefactor]

Actually it is the unregenerate man who is a robot or puppet. They are a puppet of Satan, in bondage to sin.

John 8:34-36 [KJV}
34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Again you appear to be completely ignorant of what happens when a person is regenerated or born again by the Holy Spirit. It is only then that we are truly free and not in bondage to sin.

The ignorance is on your part. You cannot prove with one single verse that regeneration is before faith. What the Scripture does teach is that Jesus draws all men, that because of the birth of Jesus all born into this world are enlightened and that election is according to foreknowledge etc. No you have backwards. All uses of believing faith are, in context, before regeneration. Talking a big show is one thing but producing solid clear Scriptural proof is all together a horse of a different color. So cough up some proof, where is the beef?

 

[Havensdad]

Come out with your hands raised above your head. You've got yourself surrounded.

Conditional on the drawing of the Father, not on anything else. The raising, is dependent on the drawing. And since it is correlative (and) it means BOTH are true, or neither or true; ie if your drawn, you are "drawn and raised". If you are not drawn, you are not raised.

This is the normal, standard use of the word 'and'.

I didn't say the conjunction served that purpose. I didn't mention it at all.

You are making it so. In order for the word "and" between two conditions to denote independence, it must include a qualifier, like "most" "many" etc. Otherwise, it is directly correlative: if "X" then "Y" also.

In other words, if you are drawn, you are also raised.

Here is some more in the same chapter...

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (Why don't these darn Pharisees believe? Why, Jesus explains...)

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

 

[AresMan]

It doesn't say what you claimed. It says they must be drawn. Where is the verse that says that all the drawn come?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [ελκυση, aorist active subjunctive, "drag"] him [αυτον, "the same"]: and I will raise him [αυτον, "the same"] up at the last day.

The Father draws one and the Son raises the same at the last day.

Helkuw means "to drag." It denotes an effectual action. In fact, the action cannot be called a helkuw unless the action actually occurs. A helkuw is not an "attempt" to do something; it is the action and the result itself. If someone failed "to draw" someone or something, it would mean that someone tried "to draw", not that an actual drawing may or may not achieve the result of the action. Look up instances of forms of helkuw in the New Testament and find even one occurrence where it denotes an action that could possibly not achieve the results of the action.

Now, the first him and the second him are the same person. The first him is not a greater set than the second him.

Now, before you get too excited, remember that I said that the Father draws through his teaching.

Precisely. All that the Father draws, he teaches:

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of [from] God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of [from] the Father, cometh unto me. (KJV)

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. (NIV)

This reference from Isaiah and Jeremiah is referring to God's people. It is not referring to every individual person.

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

All those whom the Father teaches learn from Him. Jesus was referencing these prophecies to explain the context of the drawing. The Father teaching and the children learning (all of the ones taught) is an effectual appositive of the Father's drawing. Therefore, the ones who are drawn are the same ones who will be raised. All who are drawn ("dragged") come to the Son.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The ones whom the Father teaches learn from Him.
The Father draws them and gives them to the Son.
Of all those given to the Son, the Son will lose none.
Those whom the Father gives to the Son will see Him and believe, and receive everlasting life.


These verses in John 6 are yet another unbreakable chain, like Romans 8:28-30, where God arbitrates the effectuality of the salvation of all His people.

 

[Benefactor]

Hearing the word is first. One cannot believe until he has first heard. But again, most atheists have heard the word as well as Jews, pagans and Muslims and they still don't believe.

So God tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2;8-9, Galatians 5:22, John 14:16-17, 1 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 12;9, and many other verses that faith can only come from the Holy Spirit who is the counselor, the Spirit of truth.

One cannot know the truth unless he has the Spirit of truth inside him. That's because Satan is the spirit of falsehood and rules the world. Only the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, can give us the "mind of Christ' because as 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 explain that one cannot understand the mind of God without the Spirit of God. [/B] That's why one has to be born again of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved.

It must be nice to ignore the clear meaning of Scripture; faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. The other passages you referenced are forced out of context to support your false view that regeneration is before faith when in fact Jesus who is God disagrees with your view, Luke 7:50.

 

[BaptistBob]

Conditional on the drawing of the Father, not on anything else. The raising, is dependent on the drawing. And since it is correlative (and) it means BOTH are true, or neither or true; ie if your drawn, you are "drawn and raised". If you are not drawn, you are not raised.

This is the normal, standard use of the word 'and'.

The issue is not whether or not someone must be drawn, or that those drawn will be raised. I don't know why you keep repeating it, other than that you are projecting an argument onto me.

You are making it so. In order for the word "and" between two conditions to denote independence, it must include a qualifier, like "most" "many" etc. Otherwise, it is directly correlative: if "X" then "Y" also.

No, I am not "making it so." As I said, I never mettioned it, so how could I make it so?

Here is some more in the same chapter...

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (Why don't these darn Pharisees believe? Why, Jesus explains...)

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Yeah, and you miss the point. In 6:65 he says, "I told you..." thereby referring to 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ok, so how is one drawn? That is described in the very next verse:

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.


So Jesus it the bread of life. No one can come and partake of him and the life in him unless they are drawn/taught by the Father. So those who don't listen will not be drawn, because the Father's teaching is his means of drawing. Those who do listen are taught/drawn and come to Christ and partake of life. If they will listen, they will come to him through belief. The bread of life is not given to unbelievers.

This theme runs throughout John:

7:16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Those who believe the Father will believe Jesus.

5:45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

Those who believe what God says though Moses will believe Jesus.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Those who believe Him who sent Jesus believe Jesus. And so on...

23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

 

[Havensdad]

The issue is not whether or not someone must be drawn, or that those drawn will be raised. I don't know why you keep repeating it, other than that you are projecting an argument onto me.

So then you admit that every person drawn, will be raised? You certainly seemed to be questioning this, earlier.

No, I am not "making it so." As I said, I never mettioned it, so how could I make it so?

As long as you admit that every person drawn by the father will be raised by Christ (saved), then no problem.

Yeah, and you miss the point. In 6:65 he says, "I told you..." thereby referring to 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ok, so how is one drawn? That is described in the very next verse:

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

And the why don't some listen? Jesus explains....

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Why, Jesus?

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.

Notice what Jesus just said. They CANNOT hear, and they CANNOT understand: because they are still in bondage to the devil. Their will is bound.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

Which is why Jesus kept saying this:

Luk 14:35 ... He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Only the people drawn by the father are given "ears to hear." Every other person, have "ears that CANNOT hear."

So everyone drawn, learns from the Father, and comes to Christ. No one else does.

So Jesus it the bread of life. No one can come and partake of him and the life in him unless they are drawn/taught by the Father. So those who don't listen will not be drawn, because the Father's teaching is his means of drawing. Those who do listen are taught/drawn and come to Christ and partake of life. If they will listen, they will come to him through belief. The bread of life is not given to unbelievers.

It doesn't say that they CHOOSE not to accept what He is saying. It says they have ears that CANNOT HEAR. They literally "do not have the power" to hear.

This theme runs throughout John:

7:16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Those who believe the Father will believe Jesus.

They cannot believe unless they hear. They cannot hear, unless they are given ears to hear.

BTW, the word "choose" is incorrect here. The idea of doing God's will is not in this verse. According to Vine's and Robertsons, this is speaking of one's inner desires, not a literal "choice."

5:45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

Those who believe what God says though Moses will believe Jesus.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Those who believe Him who sent Jesus believe Jesus. And so on...

23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

[/quote]

Only Jesus' sheep can hear Him,and believe...

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


They do not believe, because they do not hear his voice, because they are not His sheep, and have "ears that cannot hear."

 

[Benefactor]

The Truth Will Set You Free

John 6:29 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Between 37 and 44,45 we have this statement:
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
(the ones that come to Jesus, Jesus will raise on the last day)

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
<><><><><><><><>
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jesus said in John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Many make the mistake that the drawing of the father is different from the drawing of Jesus. This of course is a major error on the part of readers who do not understand the relationship of the Son with the Father as He explains in His earthly ministry. Notice the following statements Jesus makes:
John 8:28So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
John 12:49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50. 50"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
Don’t miss this one it is very important

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."



It is clear that Titus 3:5 teaches salvation is "through the washing by the Holy Spirit salvation is of regeneration and of renewing (new birth)

So we ask this question: What is Salvation? It is washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

In that Salvation is what is stated then a person that is saved is saved and they have been washed by the Holy Spirit which is described as regeneration and renewing.

Notice that Paul is telling Timothy that "saved" is as stated.

Now notice that Jesus told the woman in Luke 7:50 "your faith has saved you"

Now if you see the Whole Ball of Wax that is Salvation as a moment in time or a process it does not matter.

Let take the Calvinist side here:

Salvation is a process and whatever the process is it is called when done "Saved"

So Saved it the completed process.

Now Jesus told the woman that "your faith saved you" and this clearly, regardless of process or a moment is time, places faith first and saved second.

You will never find in Scripture anywhere, in any way and under no circumstances where any part of Salvation, (born again, justification, regeneration, renewing, from death to life, conversion you pick the word) comes before faith, nowhere whatsoever. None Nada, Zilch,

Scripture please, Book, Chapter, verse so we may see for ourselves the claim made.

The Calvinist try to separate the God Head in the Gospel of John in such a way that it does violence to the “I Am” Jesus stated to see him was to see the Father and that no one can come to the Father accept through Jesus

 

[Havensdad]

I take this as a personal insult.

What are you taking as an insult, brother? We are discussing scripture: there should be no insult.

 

[Benefactor]

What are you taking as an insult, brother? We are discussing scripture: there should be no insult.

Sorry, not intending to insult my appoliges

Key Issues in the Doctrine of Salvation



Faith: Where does faith come from? Some believe that saving faith is a special gift that is given a person at the time of regeneration (new birth) or shortly after, where as others see faith as preceding salvation. Salvation is regeneration, the new birth Titus 3:5. Paul settles the question of where faith comes from. If you are told by anyone that believing faith is a special infused gift then you know from what Paul tells us that this belief is false.



Paul states, "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.


Two things necessary for faith to be possible: (1) a human being and (2) the message about Christ



Luke writes: Acts 16:28 But Paul called out in a loud voice, "Don't harm yourself, because all of us are here!" 29 Then the jailer called for lights, rushed in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he escorted them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." (W) 32 Then they spoke the message of the Lord to him along with everyone in his house. 33 He took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds. Right away he and all his family were baptized. 34 He brought them up into his house, set a meal before them, and rejoiced because he had believed God with his entire household.



Luke records Jesus as saying: Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."



Relationship of Ephesians 2:8 to Romans 10:17



Certain groups press the idea that Ephesians 2:8 teaches that "faith" is a gift from this verse. Such, assumption, is not in agreement with the context, the verse and it's grammar, and Romans 10:17. One must twist the meaning to see faith as the antecedent of "this" and this view is driven by bias from within a particular belief system. All verses in the Bible that address saving faith are defined by Romans 10:17. To do otherwise is to violate as clear a statement as one could ask on the source of "believing faith".

Relationship of Titus 3:5 to Luke 7:50

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

First "saved" is "by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

Second "faith has saved us (HOW) by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

Third, notice what the following states: Acts 15:9 He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

The Steps of Faith

First, to have faith in something an object is required. The word faith is an abstract noun. Its object can be physical, or non physical. An idea can be the object as well as tangible things. Humans have trust, faith, and belief in all types of things both physical and abstract.

Second, man is created in God's image. What does this mean? It means we have the ability to develop intellectually, emotions and will. Our God given likeness is limited to our realm, genetic disposition and spiritual condition, the sin nature. The sin nature described as dead in sins and trespasses is not a spirit/soul that is in a state compared to actual cessation of life but of separation, estrangement. Sin cannot be in the presence of God and this separation is as such called death but the reality is the spirit/soul is alive. The spirit/soul will be alive in heaven or hell so the concept that the deadness of the spirit/soul is to be compared to physical death is not correct.

Third, the solution to the sin problem was solved in the death burial and resurrection of Christ. Without this all the faith in anything that exists or believed to exist is worthless. It is still faith but it is faith in vain because faith on its own cannot save a single person if that faith is in the wrong object. Scripture and real life teach us that sinful man erects objects of his making and invention, world religions, anti religions, anti God belief, the list is a big and man’s own way takes it. This is called man’s work; it is his method or idea of solving his problem. Practically, it when looked at in light of God’s word the created can’t create a solution for his own salvation it of necessity must come from the Creator. If man creates in thought or deed a solution to his problem it is a work of man and all the faith in his own invention or thinking is worthless. On the other hand if man accepts the work of God he acknowledges he cannot save himself and must trust in what he cannot do for himself. The transfer of trust form self works to God’s work is what we call believing faith.

Fourth, faith then is the transfer of trust form self solutions to God’s solution. The object of man’s trust moves from creature to creator. However, to move from creature to creator is not sufficient apart of several things; knowledge and supernatural aid. Because we are created in the image of God we have the ability as depraved spirit/souls to be touched by God’s Spirit. Our hearts can be reached. The transfer of trust from creature to creator involves knowing truth and this truth is used by the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin. The death of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the receiving of truth are the elements or components necessary to bring a lost spirit/soul to a point of decision. Apart from these it is impossible.

 

[Havensdad]

You will never find in Scripture anywhere, in any way and under no circumstances where any part of Salvation, (born again, justification, regeneration, renewing, from death to life, conversion you pick the word) comes before faith, nowhere whatsoever. None Nada, Zilch,

Not so, my friend. Scripture says that faith comes from hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


Unfortunately,

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

And Jesus said...

Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Did you catch that? Jesus just said the reason He is speaking in confusing language, is to KEEP THESE PEOPLE from repenting and being forgiven.

2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Everyone is in bondage to the devil. They have eyes that cannot see, and ears which cannot hear. The opening of the eyes, and ears, as shown above, proceeds faith: faith comes by hearing the Word.

As far as the other verse you quoted...

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Notice who he is talking about: God's people. Notice what He says: "everyone that has heard, has learned from the Father." In other words, not everyone has heard, will hear.

Why? Because only Jesus' sheep hear His voice.

 

[BaptistBob]

So then you admit that every person drawn, will be raised? You certainly seemed to be questioning this, earlier.

I think I said something to the effect that God draws through his teaching, and that some will resist it. Note that after saying that the Father draws through his teaching, Christ says that he is the only one to have seen God. That proves that Christ is speaking of God drawing through the objective message, and not some selective, secret teaching.

And the why don't some listen? Jesus explains....

Jesus explains over and over that if they have rejected the Father, they will reject him. If they did not listen to the Father, they can't listen to him. He doesn't say that some who have rejected the Father will accept him. Rather, there is another method being used to deal with such people and bring them about (see below)....

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Why, Jesus?

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.

Notice what Jesus just said. They CANNOT hear, and they CANNOT understand: because they are still in bondage to the devil. Their will is bound.

Thereby making my point.

Only the people drawn by the father are given "ears to hear." Every other person, have "ears that CANNOT hear."

Hardly. It says nothing of the sort. Rather, the theme is that they have rejected the Father's word, and are, therefore, immune to Christ's words. They are serving the Devil. Therefore, one purpose of the Book of Signs is to get them to reconsider. That is why Christ appeal to them to look at the signs and believe in them, rather than believe in his words.

38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

So everyone drawn, learns from the Father, and comes to Christ. No one else does.

No as demonstrated by what I said in a previous post (and by the fact that you dropped John 6 and looked elsewhere), the purpose of God's teaching is to draw, and those who are present must listen and learn.

BTW, the word "choose" is incorrect here. The idea of doing God's will is not in this verse. According to Vine's and Robertsons, this is speaking of one's inner desires, not a literal "choice."

I have no objection to that, per se, but Christ is not inviting them to reflect upon their inner state, but to take action and do it. Therefore, "choose" is an excellent selection of the wording.

Only Jesus' sheep can hear Him,and believe...

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


They do not believe, because they do not hear his voice, because they are not His sheep, and have "ears that cannot hear."

Of course they can't believe. Again you're making my point.

The "sheep" are those who trusted God and resisted all others before Christ arrived:

8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Prior to Christ, the sheep did not listen to any others? How can that be? Because, like the blind man in chapter 9, they trusted God and not themselves. They considered themselves to be blind, and therefore they would see when Christ arrived.

Those who trusted another did not know Christ when he arrived. For them, the Book of Signs is written to get them to once again consider the Father's teaching, learn, and be led to belief in Christ.

 

[Benefactor]

Not so, my friend. Scripture says that faith comes from hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


Unfortunately,

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

And Jesus said...

Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Did you catch that? Jesus just said the reason He is speaking in confusing language, is to KEEP THESE PEOPLE from repenting and being forgiven.

2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Everyone is in bondage to the devil. They have eyes that cannot see, and ears which cannot hear. The opening of the eyes, and ears, as shown above, proceeds faith: faith comes by hearing the Word.

As far as the other verse you quoted...

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Notice who he is talking about: God's people. Notice what He says: "everyone that has heard, has learned from the Father." In other words, not everyone has heard, will hear.

Why? Because only Jesus' sheep hear His voice.

It is true that not all who hear will obey, but some do. But as many as believe John 1:12 which clearly overrules that notion that the lost cannot believe unto salvation. The word of God and the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit open the heart and this is not regeneration as believed by the Calvinist because regeneration according to scripture follows faith.

This of course is a major difference in the Calvinist camp and those of us who reject its teaching.

 

[AresMan]

The "sheep" are those who trusted God and resisted all others before Christ arrived:

8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Prior to Christ, the sheep did not listen to any others? How can that be? Because, like the blind man in chapter 9, they trusted God and not themselves. They considered themselves to be blind, and therefore they would see when Christ arrived.

The sheep are all believers, not just ones from a certain time. Christ's sheep who existed before Christ would never believe any false Christ because they knew Who Christ would be. The sheep are not limited to the ones from a certain time, but those who were at that time would not follow false prophets.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Did Jesus give His life only for people who lived within a certain generational era?

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Are we not also Christ's sheep? Do we not know Him as well?

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who are the other sheep not of this fold? Is He not talking about sheep of the Jewish fold and sheep of the Gentile fold? Are not the sheep "not of this fold" that Christ "must bring, and they shall hear [his] voice" the Gentile sheep who would believe in the church age even after Christ's earthly ministry?

Is He not somehow alluding to the following?

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

These are the sheep "not of this fold."

The sheep that are "of this fold" (Jewish believers) would be these:

Isa 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

 

[Benefactor]

Not so, my friend. Scripture says that faith comes from hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


Unfortunately,

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

And Jesus said...

Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Did you catch that? Jesus just said the reason He is speaking in confusing language, is to KEEP THESE PEOPLE from repenting and being forgiven.

2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Everyone is in bondage to the devil. They have eyes that cannot see, and ears which cannot hear. The opening of the eyes, and ears, as shown above, proceeds faith: faith comes by hearing the Word.

As far as the other verse you quoted...

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Notice who he is talking about: God's people. Notice what He says: "everyone that has heard, has learned from the Father." In other words, not everyone has heard, will hear.

Why? Because only Jesus' sheep hear His voice.

Yes, it does seem that way when you leave out passages and take things out of context.

Here is the correct understanding in context.

2 Cor. 4:4 – The unbelieving one is those who can only not believe when they are exposed to the truth. You can’t believe in what you don’t know. The inference is that now these spoken of have chosen not to trust in Christ and that is opportunity for Satan to blind them.
The previous chapter we find these words, “But whenever anyone turns to the Lord “the veil is taken away,” The reference here speaks of the “heart” turning to the Lord. The responsibility is placed on the veiled hear which tells us that a veiled heart can make a choice in his depravity to turn to the Lord. To read into this is to force a different meaning that as it reads.
This of course tells us that, the Jews here specifically as the example, turns to the Lord the veil is removed. This language is not directed at the save because the following address the saved. This verse clearly tells us that, in this case, the lost Jews can turn. What purpose would such language served if people could not turn to the Lord?
The choice in difference as compared:
1) When the heart turns 3:16
2) Implies that others do not turn, they do not believe what they hear and at that point are classified as unbelievers 4:4
3) The result of turning is salvation and the light then shines in our heart 4:6
<><><><>
Taking Romans 11:8 in context considers the statement is the remaining comments. You have failed to represent the context by building a doctrine on bits and pieces. Romans 11:14 Paul states, “I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. We know that this happened because many Jews were aroused to envy and provoked and did come to Christ, this cannot be denied. As such verse 8 must be interpreted in light of this verse because they are inseparably link within this context. Paul later explains the result of unbelief and believing. Unbelief cannot exist in the absence of truth and truth is propositional. As such a decision is required to believe or reject which is called unbelief. 11:20 “but they were broken off because of unbelief”. Verse 23 reaffirms that if any do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted back in. This language is the language of the context which is apposite the conclusion you come to by taking verse 8 out of context. Romans 11:32 solves any dispute as to the intent, “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” First we ask the quest it poses: Why did God bind all men over to disobedience? The answer: So that he may have mercy of them all. The words “may have mercy” is the point of free will in receiving or rejecting God’s gospel.
When Satan moves in it is when sinner man disbelieves. The unbelieving heart is the fertile ground for the blinding schemes of Satan. The majority of people follow this path. A key thought is that the blinding by Satan of the heart is after one is classified as in unbelief. Logically define unbelief and you must of necessity define it as rejection of truth in the case of salvation and God’s word.
<><><><>
Mark 4:11-12 is a quote from Isaiah 6. In Isaiah 5:34b we find the following: “The have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel” and verse 25 tells us that the anger of the Lord is not at the point of punishing them for their rebellions. It is against this that those addressed are not going to have any more opportunity to believe to follow the Lord. They have in a sense exhausted the patience of God and are not set for judgment. When we correlate other Gospel statements for a clear understanding we find that the prophetic side of Isaiah equally applies to Israel of Jesus’ day as it did to the Jews of Isaiah’s day. The context of Isaiah necessitates the same that we interpretive Mark 4 in the same understanding. When the statement was made the no NT book had been written. The mindset was restricted to the OT data and this is how they would reason and understand it. To bring western thinking into this genre and remove the passage from it historical context will of course result in a Calvinistic view which is false. Context is king and the king here is the back drop of Isaiah concerning the nation of Israel, the rebellion as a whole in his day and in the time of Christ.

 

[BaptistBob]

The sheep are all believers, not just ones from a certain time.

I agree. But the arrival of Christ is being addressed here (when talking about verses 4-8), so that is what I am addressing when making that point. I agree with many commentators that the allusion is to Ez. 34, were the religious leaders are abusing the sheep, just as the religious leaders abused the blind man in chapter 9. Ez goes on to say that God will send the true shepherd to care for those sheep. Upon arrival in Israel, Christ assumes that role.

Christ's sheep who existed before Christ would never believe any false Christ because they knew Who Christ would be. The sheep are not limited to the ones from a certain time, but those who were at that time would not follow false prophets.

That was my point. I'm glad we agree. The sheep, categorically, did not follow another. They were believers.

Who are the other sheep not of this fold? Is He not talking about sheep of the Jewish fold and sheep of the Gentile fold? Are not the sheep "not of this fold" that Christ "must bring, and they shall hear [his] voice" the Gentile sheep who would believe in the church age even after Christ's earthly ministry?

Yes, they are believers in actuality, just as those believing Jews were believers in actuality before Christ arrived. There is also the possibility that Christ is speaking proleptically. In either case, my argument is supported.

 

[Benefactor]

Yes, it does seem that way when you leave out passages and take things out of context

Here is the correct understanding in context.

2 Cor. 4:4 – The unbelieving one is those who can only not believe when they are exposed to the truth. You can’t believe in what you don’t know. The inference is that now these spoken of have chosen not to trust in Christ and that is opportunity for Satan to blind them.
The previous chapter we find these words, “But whenever anyone turns to the Lord “the veil is taken away,” The reference here speaks of the “heart” turning to the Lord. The responsibility is placed on the veiled hear which tells us that a veiled heart can make a choice in his depravity to turn to the Lord. To read into this is to force a different meaning that as it reads.
This of course tells us that, the Jews here specifically as the example, turns to the Lord the veil is removed. This language is not directed at the save because the following address the saved. This verse clearly tells us that, in this case, the lost Jews can turn. What purpose would such language served if people could not turn to the Lord?
The choice in difference as compared:
1) When the heart turns 3:16
2) Implies that others do not turn, they do not believe what they hear and at that point are classified as unbelievers 4:4
3) The result of turning is salvation and the light then shines in our heart 4:6

<><><><>​

Taking Romans 11:8 in context considers the statement is the remaining comments. You have failed to represent the context by building a doctrine on bits and pieces. Romans 11:14 Paul states, “I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. We know that this happened because many Jews were aroused to envy and provoked and did come to Christ, this cannot be denied. As such verse 8 must be interpreted in light of this verse because they are inseparably link within this context. Paul later explains the result of unbelief and believing. Unbelief cannot exist in the absence of truth and truth is propositional. As such a decision is required to believe or reject which is called unbelief. 11:20 “but they were broken off because of unbelief”. Verse 23 reaffirms that if any do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted back in. This language is the language of the context which is apposite the conclusion you come to by taking verse 8 out of context. Romans 11:32 solves any dispute as to the intent, “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” First we ask the quest it poses: Why did God bind all men over to disobedience? The answer: So that he may have mercy of them all. The words “may have mercy” is the point of free will in receiving or rejecting God’s gospel.
When Satan moves in it is when sinner man disbelieves. The unbelieving heart is the fertile ground for the blinding schemes of Satan. The majority of people follow this path. A key thought is that the blinding by Satan of the heart is after one is classified as in unbelief. Logically define unbelief and you must of necessity define it as rejection of truth in the case of salvation and God’s word.

<><><><>​

Mark 4:11-12 is a quote from Isaiah 6. In Isaiah 5:34b we find the following: “The have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel” and verse 25 tells us that the anger of the Lord is not at the point of punishing them for their rebellions. It is against this that those addressed are not going to have any more opportunity to believe to follow the Lord. They have in a sense exhausted the patience of God and are not set for judgment. When we correlate other Gospel statements for a clear understanding we find that the prophetic side of Isaiah equally applies to Israel of Jesus’ day as it did to the Jews of Isaiah’s day. The context of Isaiah necessitates the same that we interpretive Mark 4 in the same understanding. When the statement was made the no NT book had been written. The mindset was restricted to the OT data and this is how they would reason and understand it. To bring western thinking into this genre and remove the passage from it historical context will of course result in a Calvinistic view which is false. Context is king and the king here is the back drop of Isaiah concerning the nation of Israel, the rebellion as a whole in his day and in the time of Christ.

<><><><>​

2 Tim. 26 tells us that there are those who have heard the gospel and are in opposition to it. The verse indicates that of those in opposition to the instruction of truth may not have gone as far as the example of Mark 4. The verse suggests that “then may return to soberness out of the devil’s snare.” This would indicated that some have not so rebelled that they are not as those of Mark 4 state of mind where God shuts the door having been patience and his patience rejected. So one cannot conclude from verse 26 that some of the ones to be considered will not repent. The granting of repentance is keeping the door open but if God shuts that door it is over for that person. Here again understanding this passage in light of the larger teaching of God’s word and how He deals with man over a period of time once he hears the truth. To not consider this truth is to take a passage from its context and miss use it.

<><><><>​

John 6:45
Simple is always easy and truth. We have demonstrated how you use the verse you selected out of context. The context here is clear. When we take the total of what Jesus had to say about drawing, calling, coming, looking, believing, listening, learning we find that those having heard “listened” the truth and have not rejected it began to learn. A critical point here is that we are dealing with a Jewish mind set and the language if not understood in that context results in Calvinism, whereas if taken correctly results in sound Biblical understanding. What is the Father’s will? See verse40 It is God will that everyone will look and believe on His son. Who is Jesus? Jesus told Philip in 14:9 that to see me is to see the Father. Jesus repeated that He and the Father are one, that they agree and what Jesus does is what the Father does. Jesus is God and I cannot refute that and when He told Philip to see me is to see the Father. I simple accept what it says about the nature of the God Head, God is always God. True followers of the Father In Jesus’ day accepted Jesus. Some of the lost accepted Jesus because they had not rejected truth for the bankrupt theology of their day. So we know that Jesus is completely the same as the Father and when Jesus makes this statement it is the same as if the Father is making it because they do not make statements that are in contradiction of each other. Jesus states that He only speaks 12:39, “I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.” This is who we are to view all that Jesus says. Now notice this verse: 12:32 “But, I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself”. Jesus states, 10:9, that He is the gate and whoever enters through me will be saved.” This is not to be confused and misused as the Calvinist theology does concerning the following. 10:27 “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. Notice that in the middle of the statement is a nugget of truth that Calvinist refuses to accept; I give them eternal life. Turn back now to 10:9, “I am the gate whoever enters through me will be saved”. Notice that once they are saved what happens: “He will come in and go out, and find pasture. “ These verses clearly teach to be a sheep salvation is necessary. It is there if there is willingness to see the whole truth in context correlated with other verses that expand on understanding. I know that this is not going to stop Calvinism from beating a dead horse even more. Unfortunately, some are mislead into believing this erring view of Scripture simply out of the drum roll of repeated verses taken out of context.

I know this is somewhat a repeat but I forgot that the edit time expires and it locked me out in the former post.

 

[Havensdad]

Benefactor,

I think you are missing the point brother. 2 Corinthians 4:4 is specifically addressing WHY people do not hear and believe. Faith COMES FROM hearing. The Lost cannot even hear the word, in order TO believe, because they are in bondage to the devil, and he keeps them blind. Christ must first free them, in order that they will believe and be saved.

This is even more clear from the preceding verse. Paul says that the Gospel is actually HID from the lost. Not because of some personal choice, he goes on to say (which they cannot even make, until Christ opens their eyes and ears and frees them), but because of Satan, who has them bound.

1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God

"has been born" is perfect passive. "Perfect" almost always refers to an action completed in the past, with ongoing ramifications. "Passive" means we did not participate: it was something done TO us.

Every person who is believing that Jesus is Christ, has been born of God. If you haven't been born of God, you have not, and cannot believe.

One last thing: would you quit calling me a Calvinist? For one thing, despite what some might think, Calvin was pretty much a supralapsarian. I am not. Second, I disagree with Calvin on a great many other things.

I don't call you Roman Catholic because you believe in free will, do I brother? Just call me "Christian", and if you just really need something to classify "my kind", you may call me "Reformed".

Thanks in Advance. :jesus: