Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[Winman]

2 Timothy 2;14, "Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value and only ruins those who listen."

MT. 11:25-27, "I praise you good Father, Lord of heaven and earth for having hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to little children. For that was your good pleasure."

Children do not analyze, distort twist or look up word derivations. They just believe the simple words in the bible that we all learned in elementary school. Words like; "is', "but, "the' 'faith", "gift".

But since God is hiding his truth from those who claim to be wise and learned, it's they who don't have the faith to believe the simple words in the bible. So they have to look them up.

Well all I can tell you is that it ruins those who listen as God says. You don't have to believe 2 Timothy 2:14, but those of us who do believe it know that quarreling about simple words ruins those who listen because it obscures the simple meaning in the bible. Analyzing the trees obscures the forest completely. And that's why those who quarrel about words are the most confused of all since they don't understand the simple words in the bible as written.

But it doesn't appear that too many people here have the faith of a child or they wouldn't have to look up so many simple words. But you can never go on to solid food if you don't even know where faith comes from to begin with. Never.

Carico, we have been over this several times. The Bible shows God allows those who refuse to hear his words to be deceived by a lie. You have got the order backwards.

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes, God will allow Satan to deceive people. But it is not without just reason. You see here that these people:

#1 Received not the love of the truth

Then it says AND FOR THIS CAUSE God shall send them strong delusion.

Then it repeats and says they believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is because men love to do evil that they will not believe. They could, it is a conscious choice. Unsaved men hear the gospel, and they understand it. But many want to continue to live in sin because they enjoy it. They don't want to give it up. And they know if they accept Christ that Jesus is going to tell them to give up sin. They know this, and are unwilling.

John 1:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jesus explains it very simply here. Men will not come to him and believe because they love darkness, that is, evil. They do not like the truth because it exposes them as wicked sinners. They do not want to hear that. And they do not want to give up their evil ways because they enjoy them.

These people will put God out of their minds and rationalize away the scriptures. They will tell themselves they are not evil and the things they do are acceptable. These are of course lies from the devil, and God will allow them to believe these lies.

The evolutionist can see creation just as you and I. They can see that it could not have come about by accident. But they do not want to submit to a holy God and give up sin. So they try to explain God away to themselves. And after awhile they believe these lies.

But it is because they would not receive the truth that God afterwards allows them to be deceived. Get the order correct.

 

[OldRegular]

I have read and re-read this verse and have yet to find faith mentioned anywhere. What I do find is that God saved us according to his mercy; and that this salvation came through a work of the Holy Spirit (the agent) and through regeneration (the instrument).

What I find is that the Holy Spirit employed regeneration to save us.

What I see is that regeneration and salvation are not the same. And that regeneration preceded salvation, since it was through regeneration that we were saved.

Now the Scripture certainly asserts that we are saved as a result of our faith. So faith precedes salvation. But this verse cannot be used to show that faith precedes regeneration.

Excellent response to Benefactor on his interpretation of Titus 3:5.

 

[Winman]

It is a mistake to confuse the gift of the Holy Ghost, i.e. the baptism of the Spirit, the clothing with power from on high, the sending of the comforter, which came on the Day of Pentecost, with the work of the Spirit in regeneration. The two are not the same. The former was a special ministration of the Spirit and a gift to the infant church which enabled it to grow and spread and to conduct it's warfare “against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” This ministration of the Spirit was the ONLY reason that the gates of hell did not prevail against the church. The work of the Spirit in regeneration had been around long before the Day of Pentecost.

Nice, not one verse of scripture to support all that.

 

[OldRegular]

Of course we know that Saved is what: the washing of regeneration and renewing. Whatever we want to call it a person that is completely, totally saved was so by the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.
Because saved is washing of regeneration and renewing places this washing of regeneration and renewing after faith.
You are right the word faith is not in the verse but it does not have to be. What is understood is that "saved" is described to us as the washing of regeneration and renewing. We know that regeneration is new birth and you know as most do that regeneration is considered the same as "born from above" Calvinist are quick to point this out and I agree with that assessment. Therefore this new birth is "saved" and faith is before the new birth. There is no way around that.

You correctly say that Regeneration is the same as the New Birth. Jesus Christ told Nicodemus:

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So Regeneration is required to enter the Kingdom of God. Now Jesus Christ explains to Nicodemus the process of regeneration, the New Birth.

John 3:6-8
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now where is faith mentioned by Jesus Christ in His explanation of the process of Regeneration? It is not. Jesus Christ says we do not understand how Regeneration occurs. If faith precedes Regeneration then Jesus Christ would not have given the explanation that He did.

 

[Carico]

Carico, we have been over this several times. The Bible shows God allows those who refuse to hear his words to be deceived by a lie. You have got the order backwards.

That's correct. And you don't believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the man without the spirit doesn't not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[Winman]

You correctly say that Regeneration is the same as the New Birth. Jesus Christ told Nicodemus:

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So Regeneration is required to enter the Kingdom of God. Now Jesus Christ explains to Nicodemus the process of regeneration, the New Birth.

John 3:6-8
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now where is faith mentioned by Jesus Christ in His explanation of the process of Regeneration? It is not. Jesus Christ says we do not understand how Regeneration occurs. If faith precedes Regeneration then Jesus Christ would not have given the explanation that He did.

Where is the explanation? Verse 8 is showing that the Holy Spirit is like the wind. We cannot see the wind, but we can see it's effects and feel it blowing. We can see the leaves rustle, we can see the dust blow up, we can hear it blow through the trees, we can feel it on our face. All Jesus is doing here is explaining that the Holy Ghost cannot be seen like the wind, but you can see and detect it in those who have it.

There is not one word about regeneration in these verses.

 

[Carico]

Where is the explanation? Verse 8 is showing that the Holy Spirit is like the wind. We cannot see the wind, but we can see it's effects and feel it blowing. We can see the leaves rustle, we can see the dust blow up, we can hear it blow through the trees, we can feel it on our face. All Jesus is doing here is explaining that the Holy Ghost cannot be seen like the wind, but you can see and detect it in those who have it.

There is not one word about regeneration in these verses.

So what re-generated paul? Let see...how about the devil...or perhaps his sinful nature can make his own sinful nature holy. :laugh: Sorry, that's the blind leading the blind. Paul didn't wake up one day and "decide" to become a Christian. He was transformed. Do you think that it was a coincidence that Paul just happened to have faith in Jesus after he was transformed? Apparently so. Everything happens by chance. Your arguments aren't even good.

 

[OldRegular]

Where is the explanation? Verse 8 is showing that the Holy Spirit is like the wind. We cannot see the wind, but we can see it's effects and feel it blowing. We can see the leaves rustle, we can see the dust blow up, we can hear it blow through the trees, we can feel it on our face. All Jesus is doing here is explaining that the Holy Ghost cannot be seen like the wind, but you can see and detect it in those who have it.

There is not one word about regeneration in these verses.

Then you disagree with Benefactor that the New Birth is Regeneration? You should really take it up with him.

You will have to admit that the Holy Spirit is the instrument of the New Birth or deny Scripture.

 

[Winman]

That's correct. And you don't believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the man without the spirit doesn't not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

And that's why there's no point in arguing with people who don't believe passages like that one because they don't have the spirit. So they will turn passages like that into the opposite as you do. Only when you have the faith of a child will you know that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Until you believe that, you will continue to pass along false teaching.

I've been over that verse several times with you also.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The very first thing this verse tells us is that the natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit of God. It is just like the verses I just showed you where men would not receive the truth. They don't want to believe what the scriptures say. They want to believe a lie. And so God allows them to be deceived.

You like to skip over the first part of the verse and go to the end where you think it supports you. Not a good idea.

Now, back to believeing, look how Jesus says a man can believe. He appeals to their reason, and speaks nothing of regeneration.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Here Jesus tells Philip that if he cannot believe because of Jesus's words (faith cometh by hearing the word of God), then believe because he saw the great miracles Jesus did.

There is not one word about being regenerated to believe here. Jesus told Philip that they had been together for 3 years. He had heard all the teachings of Jesus and he should have believed that Jesus was the Christ.

But then Jesus said basically, "if you cannot believe me because of my words, then believe because of the miracles you have seen"

First, if Calvinism is true, this makes no sense. It makes no sense for God to tell any man to believe, because it is completely beyond his control if Calvinism is true.

And second, this shows that believeing is not some supernatural spell imposed on a man. A man can use his reason to believe. A man could watch Christ and hear his words, and compare him to the prophesies they had in the Old Testament and decide if Jesus was the Christ. And if Jesus's words didn't convince Philip, then his miracles should.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

Here it says they believed because they saw Jesus's miracles, not because faith was imposed on them as Calvinists believe.

Nicodemus believed because of the miracles.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

 

[Carico]

Winamn,

I wanted to believe the bible for years but could not until I received the HS. And in fact, most atheists I have talked to also want to believe the bible but it doesn't make sense to them. So you are wrong again.

The reason you're wrong is that you're still not putting the bible together, Winman. Not putting the whole bible together is no different than misquoting a sentence. So what you're doing analogous to taking a sentence like; "God saves everyone who believes in him" and striking out the last part of the sentence to make it read; "God saves everyone."

So not putting the whole bible together is the same as misquoting God. So for the umpteenth time, put the verses you quoted together with; 1 Corinthians 2:11-14, Romans 3:11, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 4;4 for starters. But if you don't then you will continue to misquote God.

 

[Winman]

Winamn,

I wanted to believe the bible for years but could not until I received the HS. And in fact, most atheists I have talked to also want to believe the bible but it doesn't make sense to them. So you are wrong again.

The reason you're wrong is that you're still not putting the bible together, Winman. Not putting the whole bible together is no different than misquoting a sentence. So what you're doing analogous to taking a sentence like; "God saves everyone who believes in him" and striking out the last part of the sentence to make it read; "God saves everyone."

So not putting the whole bible together is the same as misquoting God. So for the umpteenth time, put the verses you quoted together with; 1 Corinthians 2:11-14, Romans 3:11, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 4;4 for starters. But if you don't then you will continue to misquote God.

When did you receive the Holy Spirit? What were you doing when this occurred?

And by the way, you contradict your doctrine. You should have had no desire whatsoever to believe the Bible as you just said you did unless you were first regenerated. You slipped up there.

 

[Amy.G]

And by the way, you contradict your doctrine. You should have had no desire whatsoever to believe the Bible as you just said you did unless you were first regenerated. You slipped up there.

Good catch!

 

[Carico]

When did you receive the Holy Spirit? What were you doing when this occured?

And by the way, you contradict your doctrine. You should have had no desire whatsoever to believe the Bible as you just said you did unless you were first regenerated. You slipped up there.

I had gotten to the end of my rope. God was drawing me and led me to ask Him. As Romans 8:26 says (which I doubt you believe), "We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

It is the HS that leads us to God, not the devil or our sinful nature. Our sinful nature resists God and does what is contrary to God as Galatians 5:18 explains. But I didn't believe in God until after I received the Holy Spirit.

That's why Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one righteous, not even one. No one who understands, no one who seeks God."

So put that together with Romans 8:26 and it clearly agrees with jesus in John 6:63-64, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled Him."

So when you put the whole bible together, it is the HS who is drawing God's chosen, it is the Holy Spirit who is giving us everything good which is why faith is a fruit of the SPIRIT, not a fruit of our sinful nature. It's very simple.

 

[Amy.G]

Since so few here seem to believe 1 Corinthians 12:8-9 that faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, or Ephesians 2:8-9 that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast, or 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the man without the Spirit cannot understand things from God, then I'll relay my own personal experience which is why I know those verses are true.

I was an unbeliever for most of my life. I wanted to understand the bible, but it didn't make sense to me. I tried to understand it but it was gibberish to me.

To make a long story short, one day when I had come to the end of myself, I cried out to God to help me. I felt as if a hand had touched my back, I felt heat rush from my neck to my toes and when I opened my eyes the sun streamed into the window. The sun had been out the whole day and there wasn't a cloud in the sky. But after I opened my eyes, it was so bright that the whole room seemed a brilliant white light. The colors on the bedspread were vivid whereas in comparison to before my eyes were closed, they were drab. That light is still with me today.

Then I opened the bible, and every word was crystal clear. I actually felt like I was eating them. They were so simple and I knew they were true. Now that didn't come from myself because I had tried to believe the bible for years through human intelligence but could not. But as 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 tells us, the human mind cannot understand the mind of God and I know that first hand.

So now, not only do I know that one cannot have faith without the Holy Spirit, it's no surprise to me that those who claim that faith comes from man's sinful nature are the ones who ignore passages, have to look up word derivations or change them into the opposite. But those who've been born again, don't have to change or ignore one word or passage in the bible. They are simple enough for a child to understand because Jesus said he would reveal his truth to little children, not to those who claim to be wise and learned.

You contradict yourself here. You said that you "cried out to God" and then you "felt" warm and after that you "understood the bible". So right here you say that you believed and then God gave you the Holy Spirit. That is correct.

But then you go on to say that "one cannot have faith without the Holy Spirit". It is obvious by your own testimony that you did NOT receive the Holy Spirit UNTIL you called out to God (had faith).

Care to explain?

 

[Carico]

So what was Paul doing when he received the HS? He was rounding up Christians to be murdered.

What were the disciples doing when Jesus approached them? Going about their daily business.

Jacob wrestled with God

Jonah ran away from God.

Jeremiah resisted God's calling.

So Jesus is right when he says, "You did not choose me. I chose you."

 

[Carico]

You contradict yourself here. You said that you "cried out to God" and then you "felt" warm and after that you "understood the bible". So right here you say that you believed and then God gave you the Holy Spirit. That is correct.

But then you go on to say that "one cannot have faith without the Holy Spirit". It is obvious by your own testimony that you did NOT receive the Holy Spirit UNTIL you called out to God (had faith).

Care to explain?

I told you that you wouldn't believe Romans 8:26. Read it and believe it. Then you'll know that it was the Holy Spirit that led me to ask God for help. But he hadn't yet entered me. So read John 14:17 to see that the HS lives with those God has chosen and he will also be in us.

 

[Carico]

Winman,

Who do you think draws people to God:

1) the devil
2) Our sinful nature
3) The Holy Spirit

If you don't know that it's the Holy Spirit, then you have zero understanding of the bible and who God is and further conversation with you will be pointless.

 

[Amy.G]

"We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

Paul wrote this to the already redeemed, which you were not at the time God was drawing you, so that scripture does not apply to the unredeemed.

But I didn't believe in God until after I received the Holy Spirit.

But you must have believed God before you received the Holy Spirit because you said that you "called out to him". Why would you call out to God if you did not believe in Him?

 

[Winman]

I had gotten to the end of my rope. God was drawing me and led me to ask Him. As Romans 8:26 says (which I doubt you believe), "We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

It is the HS that leads us to God, not the devil or our sinful nature. Our sinful nature resists God and does what is contrary to God as Galatians 5:18 explains. But I didn't believe in God until after I received the Holy Spirit.

That's why Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one righteous, not even one. No one who understands, no one who seeks God."

So put that together with Romans 8:26 and it clearly agrees with jesus in John 6:63-64, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled Him."

So when you put the whole bible together, it is the HS who is drawing God's chosen, it is the Holy Spirit who is giving us everything good which is why faith is a fruit of the SPIRIT, not a fruit of our sinful nature. It's very simple.

Carico, you just said that for years you wanted to understand the Bible but could not until you received the Holy Spirit. Now, according to your doctrine, this means you were regenerated for years and yet did not believe, because according to your own doctrine you should have had no desire whatseover to even listen to the scriptures.

Then you said you had many atheist friends who also want to believe the Bible. So obviously they must be regenerated if your doctrine is true.

No, what you've done is prove that Calvinism is false by your own experience and the experience of your friends.

You are correct that no one gets saved without the drawing and influence of the Holy Spirit. But how does God do this? With the scriptures.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

A little side note, notice that Jesus already knows who will believe and who will not. This the the foreknowledge of God. God knew before time who would believe, and it is those that will believe that God chose and elected.

Now Carico, I don't know how to explain this, but the scriptures are the Holy Spirit, and they are life. The scriptures themselves are supernatural. But you must receive these words of God before they will quicken you.

Even unsaved men hear the scriptures. Your friends read the scriptures but they do not understand them, that is what you yourself said. The reason is because they have not believed them from the heart. At this point there is a reason they do no want to accept them. The scriptures say men do not receive the truth because they have pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Holy Spirit convicts a man from the outside. When a man is convicted by hearing the scriptures, and then turns to Christ and believes, it is then that the Holy Spirit enters a person and dwells within them.

As Jesus told his disciples, the Comforter (Holy Spirit) dwelt with them. He did not say inside them, that is a huge difference. But Jesus said he would go away and send the Holy Spirit and then the Spirit would dwell in them. You are not quickened until the Holy Spirit enters you.

This is what Calvinists do not understand. The Holy Spirit first convicts you from the outside. The Holy Spirit does call and influence you. But only when you receive the Holy Spirit does he enter and you are saved. And Jesus shows this in Revelations 3:20

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Here, salvation is shown. Jesus is on the outside. But he knocks at the door of your heart and calls out to you. So, that is the influence, the drawing and calling of the Spirit shown right there. But Jesus himself makes it very clear that you must open the door. He will not come in unless you invite him in of your own free will. He is not a burglar who breaks down your door. But if you do open the door, he has promised to come in to you. Now he is on the inside and you are saved.

Carico, if you wanted to believe the Bible for years, that was the Holy Spirit on the outside calling and drawing you. And if you sincerely invited Christ into your heart, then he did come in and now lives within you.

But if you did not invite Christ into your heart, he is still on the outside knocking, waiting for you to open the door.

 

[Amy.G]

I told you that you wouldn't believe Romans 8:26. Read it and believe it. Then you'll know that it was the Holy Spirit that led me to ask God for help. But he hadn't yet entered me. So read John 14:17 to see that the HS lives with those God has chosen and he will also be in us.

That is not what John 14:17 says. Jesus was dwelling with the disciples but when He went back to God, the Holy Spirit would dwell within them.

I believe the scriptures, every jot and tittle. It is you that I do not believe.