Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[jcjordan]

Winman, why is it that you have faith and others don't?

 

[Winman]

Do you know the difference between the 1st 3 groups in the parable of the sower; why they fell away and only the last group didn't? Because the first 3 had no root and the last group did. So you need to know the difference between saving faith and false faith. I'll give you a hint; you have to know who the root is. I'll let you think about that.

That is not the point of the parable. What does Jesus tell his disciples when they came to him afterward? And I think it is important to note that they did not understand this parable any more than unbelievers, they had to come later and ask him to explain it.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

This is the very last thing Jesus said to his disciples. He told them to be very careful how they hear, and what they hear. So what you hear and believe is in your control, not his. And he says to those that will listen and believe what he says, to them more will be given or revealed. But to those who refuse to receive his words, even that little that was given them shall be taken away.

Carico, the sower gave the same seed to all hearers. The seed was the word of God, and the same seed was sowed to all. The difference was the hearers, which Jesus carefully explains.

The wayside was hard and walked on. Seed cannot penetrate soil like this. This is those that absolutely refuse to listen.

The soil with rocks was those that hear, but in times of persecution fall away. I myself do not necessarily believe these folks are lost, but they will never produce fruit. But they did spring up into life.

The soil with thorns are those that hear but let the cares of this life distract them away. Again, I believe these are saved, but they also will produce no fruit and receive little reward in heaven.

But the good soil is those that receive the seed with a good and honest heart. Now, I didn't say that, Jesus did.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Now, because you are biased by Calvinistic teaching, you have to believe their heart was regenerated to believe. But this verse mentions no such thing. In fact the Bible shows numerous times that the unsaved can seek God.

The Philipian jailer was unsaved but sought God.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

The Philipian jailer wasn't regenerated, because Paul told him he needed to believe. And how could he believe on Jesus if he had never heard of Jesus? And notice that afterward Paul spoke unto him the word of the Lord, and that after hearing God's word he believed and was baptized.

And the rich young man was unsaved but sought God.

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

This young man was unsaved, yet he wanted to know how to have eternal life. Notice also that Jesus said this young man knew the scriptures. Now, I hardly think Jesus was lying when he said this, so this proves that the unsaved can understand the scriptures to a degree.

But why didn't this young man get saved? Because he loved his wealth and money more than God. He could not give up his wealth and possessions which are for the present only to receive greater riches in the life to come.

So, this young man went away unsaved. He was not regenerated, yet he desired eternal life.

And you yourself said you wanted to believe the Bible for years. So your own experience contradicts the doctrines of Calvinism. So why you would want to cling to a doctrine that the scriptures and your own experience proves false is beyond me.

 

[Carico]

You need to finish that passage. The disciples asked "then how can anyone be saved?" Jesus answered; "With man this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible."

So no, man cannot save himself any more than his sinful nature which is contrary to God can have faith in God. It's impossible because as 1 Corinthians 2:11 says, "In the same way, no one can understand the mind of God without the Spirit of God." And one cannot believe something he doesn't understand.

 

[AresMan]

1) Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

Does everyone who who experiences auditory input into their ears then have saving faith? This verse says that "hearing" comes by the Word of God. Therefore, the "hearing" is not mere auditory input, but effectual listening. The Word of God, as God uses it for His purpose, causes "hearing." This "hearing" causes faith. This is the kind of "hearing" in this verse:

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Although the multitudes had working ears to process auditory input, they did not "hear" Jesus' words. They did not understand the message.

Romans 10:17 represents an effectual act of God. God uses His word to bring hearing to people. This hearing results in saving faith.

2) The result of faith is salvation:

This is the message of faith that we proclaim: 9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 Now the Scripture says, No one who believes on Him will be put to shame, 12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The result of faith is justification, which is also called "saved" because it is the moment that determines standing.

3) Jesus said in Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

Did Jesus mean that she was the originator of her own faith or the possessor of it? It does not say. A possessive does not necessarily indicate an arbiter, but only indicates a possessor. You cannot prove that the woman generated her own faith from a libertarian will from this verse. Other verses in Scriptures may indicate how one has faith.

This verse supports Paul's teaching that faith is frist and salvation is second

Faith comes before justification, that is true. However, just because faith precedes justification, does not mean that faith precedes regeneration.

4) Titus 3:5 defines Saved (salvation) as follows: He saved us not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit

As everyone can see before a person can believe they must hear the truth, repent, believe and then they are regenerated.

This verse does not prove your position.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another [obviously this is referring to an unregenerate].
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:5 can just as much prove regeneration before faith as you think it would prove after.

Regeneration is the same as being born again (again = re, born = generation). One does not choose to be born, but one does make choices based upon one's birth/nature. When one is regenerated, one then naturally has faith. This faith is then the pecuniary means by which God justifies the sinner and imputes His righteousness. And, before you make a comment about "regenerate unbelievers" I believe that regeneration and saving faith are chronologically simultaneous. The washing of regeneration is like a gun trigger and saving faith is like the projectile. My order of salvation is:

1. election/predestination for sanctification
2. effectual call/regeneration
3. saving faith (#2 and #3 are simultaneous, but #2 causes #3)
4. justification
5. sanctification
6. glorification

 

[Benefactor]

So, Benefactor. Are you saying that you refuse to thank God for your faith?

Funny, Paul said faith comes from hearing. What can I say? Just believe what Paul tells us. Hear, believe, saved

 

[AresMan]

Volitional will (influence and response) and determination (cause and effect) are logically mutually exclusive.

Not if you are a compatibilist.

 

[Carico]

Funny, Paul said faith comes from hearing. What can I say? Just believe what Paul tells us. Hear, believe, saved

Funny, you have to put all scripture together or you are misquoting God. So put that verse from Paul together with Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and 12:9, and you get, one first has to hear the world of God. Then he needs to receive the Holy Spirit to believe.

So you cannot take verses out of context with the rest of the bible or you are misquoting God.

 

[Benefactor]

Carico,

We were all the children of the devil. That is why we have to be born again.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So, this idea that some are God's children from the beginning and others are Satan's children from the beginning is not scriptural. The scriptures show that we were all the children of disobedience and wrath. This is why we must be born again of God.

But you must first believe while a sinner to be born again.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This verse teaches that those that first received Jesus and believed on him, "to them" gave he power to become the sons of God.

Now why would he need to give this power to someone who already had it?

Amen: That is a slam dunk.

 

[Carico]

But you must first believe while a sinner to be born again.

So then you believe that faith comes from the sinful nature. is that correct? :laugh:

If so, God disagrees with you in Romans 8:7, "the sinful mind is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

And Galatians 5:17, "for the sinful nature does what is contrary to the Spirit." And faith is a fruit of the Spirit. So you have again not only contradicted much scripture, your claims don't even make sense by human reasoning!

 

[AresMan]

Back to the subject, second, your continuing argument merely substantiates my claim that the determinist view "must" rest on “cause and effect” and therefore is logically mutually exclusive to “influence and response”.

There is not just determinism and free will. There is also compatibilism (or "soft determinism") in the middle. Compatibilist free will says that man is free to choose whatever he wants most in every situation. Man always does what he wants in the parameters of the circumstances. No one is coerced to choose contrary to one's own volition. However, one's nature, among other things, limits one's volition. You cannot tell me that one has "libertarian free will" because the Bible is full of verses that present a dichotomy of the natures of the regenerate and the unregenerate, and uses terms such as "bound," "servant," "slave," "cannot," etc.

Libertarian free will must explain the logic behind arbitrary choices. LFW adherents argue that one cannot be responsible or culpable unless one has the real possibility within himself to have made an alternative choice for every choice made. However, if choices are completely arbitrary, then motivation is not the determining factor; thus, one has grounds to plead insanity because he did not act according to his motivation. Compatibilist free will says that man always makes choices out of motivation. One does what he most wants. One, therefore, is responsible.

Regarding Divine attributes, your thesis is on the road to making it sound as if God relies on tricks and lies rather than truth concerning creaturely volition.

I don't think you were getting the gist of what he was saying. You are micro-analyzing his illustration. He was merely trying to make the point that God can effectually change one's nature from a servant of sin to a servant of righteousness, while not coercively dictating his actions. One's nature is a boundary to one's choices, and one will choose freely, volitionally, and with purpose and motivation according to desires based upon one's nature.

It seems to be yet another variation of God’s drawing people while they are kicking, screaming and clawing at the ground, forced salvation (determination), except here He forces a choice by trickery. Nothing there remotely shows volition.

I really do not see how he argued such a case implicitly or logically. Changing one's nature from depraved to regenerate and one making free choices based upon his nature in no way compares to God coercing, forcing, or tricking one to make specific actions as if one did not do what he really wanted to do.

Creatures have volition or they do not, both can not logically be true.

Of course. That does not mean that one has complete libertarian freedom of the will. There are constrains. Are you a pelagian?

One always does exactly what he most wants to do in the circumstances of every situation. Therefore, one is responsible for his actions (unless he is insane) because every action has a purpose and a motivation. Do you not acknowledge that limitations exist upon the range of choices one cna choose volitionally?

 

[Benefactor]

AresMan

Greetings, AresMan if there exist knowedge that you don't know what is that to you?

 

[Carico]

God establishes all earthly authorities. But maybe the bible is wrong. Maybe anyone who wants to be a world leader can be a world leader if he makes the right choices. So says the secular world that's ruled by Satan.

 

[AresMan]

Nice to know that you agree with me in the following:

Jesus told the woman that her faith saved her so faith comes before saved that is clear and I don't think anyone would argue with God, Jesus is God.

Paul tells us that "Saved" is as stated in the post the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing. So this washing of regeneration and renewing is the completeness of Saved and Saved it the washing of regeneration and renewing. Therefore the order is faith first and washing of regeneration and renewing second. This is what these verses teach, to change the order it so disagree with Jesus and Paul.

The verse says that "the washing of regeneration and renewing" is the cause and "saved" is the effect. Therefore, they precede "saved." In this case, saved logically means justified. Regeneration precedes justification.

Now, does regeneration precede faith? First, do we see anywhere in Scripture that regeneration and faith show up together? Is there anywhere that says that regeneration follows faith? We see verses where justification follows faith.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I see no mention of faith here. However, there is a mention of being saved by regeneration. Effectively, God used regeneration to bring about our salvation.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [see Romans 8:29-30]
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus].
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Wow, this sounds a lot like Romans 8:28-20. It also sounds like a done deal. It sounds like regeneration. It sounds like regeneration is what quickened us from being "dead in sins." Thus, being awakened to spiritual life, we then have the capacity to exercise saving faith inevitably from our new nature, which is the pecuniary grounds for justification.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Grace is targeted, and grace involves regeneration, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

 

[AresMan]

AresMan

Greetings, AresMan if there exist knowedge that you don't know what is that to you?

I do not understand this statement. I guess that is "knowledge that don't know."

 

[OldRegular]

The verse says that "the washing of regeneration and renewing" is the cause and "saved" is the effect. Therefore, they precede "saved." In this case, saved logically means justified. Regeneration precedes justification.

Now, does regeneration precede faith? First, do we see anywhere in Scripture that regeneration and faith show up together? Is there anywhere that says that regeneration follows faith? We see verses where justification follows faith.

I see no mention of faith here. However, there is a mention of being saved by regeneration. Effectively, God used regeneration to bring about our salvation.

Wow, this sounds a lot like Romans 8:28-20. It also sounds like a done deal. It sounds like regeneration. It sounds like regeneration is what quickened us from being "dead in sins." Thus, being awakened to spiritual life, we then have the capacity to exercise saving faith inevitably from our new nature, which is the pecuniary grounds for justification.

Grace is targeted, and grace involves regeneration, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

That Scripture and rationale have been presented ad infinitum but to no avail. There are simply some who believe their sovereignty in salvation trumps that of GOD!

 

[Benjamin]

Not if you are a compatibilist.

Ever read the second line of my signature?

 

[OldRegular]

And Carico, I don't think you understand what faith is. Faith by definition means to depend on someone or something else and not to rely upon oneself. When I deposit money in the bank, I am completely relying upon them to keep it for me, I am no longer keeping it.

When I drive my car, I have faith and trust that the brakes will safely stop me. I do not stop the car, the brakes do, and I completely rely upon them. I do not put my feet down and stop the car like Fred Flintstone.

Those examples present a very poor concept of saving faith.

I wonder if you lived prior to FDIC whether you would have so much faith in banks! I wonder if you ever drove a car with mechanical brakes whether you would compare faith in those brakes to saving faith!

 

[OldRegular]

Winman, why is it that you have faith and others don't?

He won't or can't answer that question but I can. GOD gave it to him!

 

[AresMan]

Calvinists can say what they want, the scriptures clearly show that a man can have faith before receiveing the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Here the scriptures clearly show believers who had not yet received the Spirit.

There is a difference among the Holy Spirit "falling upon" someone in the Old Testament, regenerating someone (Old and New Testaments?), and the Holy Spirit indwelling and sealing someone (New Testament, after faith and upon justification). Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are not the same thing.

And there are many other examples.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Here Paul found 12 disciples of John the Baptist. Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost "since ye believed" which shows Paul understood a man to receive the Spirit AFTER believeing. These disciples had never even heard of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit was beginning His ministry in the early church and acted slightly differently from Pentecost. There was a time when the apostles could give the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands. Eventually, the Holy Spirit simply indwells and seals all believers upon justification. However, regeneration to spiritual life, and indwelling and sealing are two different acts of the Holy Spirit.

Paul then preaches Jesus unto them (faith comes by hearing the word of God)

No. Faith comes by hearing (understanding) and hearing comes by the Word of God. So many misread this verse.

they accepted Christ and were baptized in his name, and then after believeing received the Holy Ghost.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

No disagreement here. The Holy Spirit regenerates, then the regenerate exercises saving faith, then the believer is justified, then the Holy Spirit indwells and seals them.

Here Jesus was speaking to his disciples. Were they believers? Yes. Did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit? No. Jesus here says the Spirit dwells with them but in the future shall be in them.

Yup. That is how the Holy Spirit operated in the early church. However, don't confuse regeneration with indwelling/sealing.

Now how could the Spirit dwell with them? Verse 18 shows that Jesus was speaking of himself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. Jesus was dwelling with them. After ascending to the Father he sent the Holy Spirit (which is Jesus) to be "in" them.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit ministered differently in the early church as I mentioned earlier.

Here Jesus shows that a man can both hear and keep his words (faith cometh by hearing the word of God).

Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word of God. If hearing simply means auditory input, then anyone who has working ears in the presence of a Gospel presentation will exercise saving faith. This is not the case, and hearing here means listening, understanding, and heeding.

And Jesus promises those that hear and keep his words that he will send the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit.

Here, Jesus was talking to His disciples specifically about how their ministry in the early church as apostles.

There are many other examples in the scriptures. Just as Ephesians 1:13 clearly shows, first a man hears the word of God, then believes, and only after receives the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How did they receive the Spirit? By the hearing of faith. What did they hear? The word of God. What did they have faith in? The word of God. So they had to hear the word of God and have faith before receiveing the Spirit.

Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are different.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse is very specific. First they heard the word of God, then after that believed, then after that received the Spirit.

Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are different.

God didn't put the word "after" twice in this verse for no reason. Calvinists can twist any scriptures they wish, the scriptures show a man first believes before receiveing the Spirit.

Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are different.

 

[AresMan]

Ever read the second line of my signature?

Please explain the logic behind choices in Libertarian Free Will.